Impartiality in the Lions.

I don't know if this has ever been done before, but here goes.

Since Gatt's has been announced as the Lions head coach there is a lot of players names being banded about as shoe ins, and talk of 50-50 calls going Wales' way in terms of squad selection.

I know there is a lot of Rugby to be played before then but lets just say for arguments sake the tour was leaving as scheduled so injured players can be picked and players out of form can come good.

Pick your test XXII. One condition...... you cannot pick anyone from your nation in your test team.

This will hopefully negate national bias and through the collated names we should get a squad that the best players rise to the top.

It is quite tough to do this so being Scottish here is my Lions Test XXII. In brackets are players who I would have liked to pick from my country to play in the Lions test squad.

1. Cian Healy (I)
2. Rory Best (I) (Ross Ford)
3. Dan Cole (E)
4. Alan-Wyn Jones (W) (Richie Gray)
5. Paul O'Connell (I)
6. Steven Ferris (I)
7. Sam Warburton (W) (Ross Rennie)
8. Sean O'Brien (I)

9. Ben Youngs (E)
10. Toby Flood (E)
11. Tommy Bowe (I) (Tim MacVisser)
12. Scott Williams (W)
13. Johnathon Davies (W)
14. George North (W)
15. Ben Foden (E)

16. Adam Jones (W) 17. Dylan Heartley (E) 18. Luke Charteris (W) 19. Tom Croft (E) 20. Danny Care (E) 21. Johnny Sexton (I) 22. Rob Kearney (I)

As I said harder than it looks. The backrow is particularly hard.

So give it a bash and we'll see what names come up most often.

Also I forgot to add..... I'll happily explain any of my decisions, but please post up your team 1st before you rip into my poor selections

1 Heally
2 Best
3 Jones
4 Gray
5 Hamilton
6 Ferris
7 Rennie
8 Heaslip

9 ??
10 Sexton
11 Bowe
12 Roberts
13 O'Driscoll
14 North
15 Hogg

1. Cian Healy (I)
2. Rory Best (I)
3. Adam Jones (W)
4. Ian Evans (W) (Richie Gray)
5. Paul O'Connell (I)
6. Steven Ferris (I)
7. Sam Warburton (W) (Ross Rennie)
8. Ben Morgan (E) (Dave Denton)

9. Danny Care (E)
10. Jonathan Sexton (I)
11. George North (W) (Tim MacVisser)
12. Johnathon Davies (W)
13. Manu Tuilagi (E)
14. Tommy Bowe (I)
15. Rob Kearney (I)

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Gray
6.Ferris
7.Robshaw
8.Heaslip

9.Youngs
10.Sexton
11.Visser
12.Tuilagi
13.Earls
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

16.Ford
17.Marler
18.Ross
19.O'Connell
20.O'Brien
21.Murray
22.Flood
23.Hogg

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Cole
4 Gray
5 O'Connell
6 Ferris
7 Robshaw
8 Denton
9 Care
10 Sexton
11 Bowe
12 Tuilagi
13 BOD
14 Wade
15 Kearney

Looks distinctly like a 2nd XV to me, or maybe the dirt trackers

1) Healy
2) Ford
3) Jones
4) Gray
5) Davies (*)
6) Ferris
7) Warburton (C)
8) Denton (*)
9) Reddan (**)
10) Sexton
11) Visser
12) Roberts
13) Davies
14) North
15) Kearney

16) Jenkins
17) Best
18) Ross
19) Ryan Jones
20) Rennie
21) Blair (**)
22) Priestland (*)
23) Halfpenny


(*) Positions I really struggled to fill. Second row was tricky as POC looked over the hill last season, while I refuse to ever pick Ian Evans. numer 8 was an issue as Heaslip and Faletau struggled in the second half of last season - and I am still waiting to see if Denton is a flash in the pan.

(**) SH is tricky. I am not sure you could be certain who will be first choice for any of the 4 nations come interbnational time. I selected Reddan simply because he plays with Sexton regularly.


PS - I am not suggesting that there are better English players for all these problem positions = or indeed any (in fact on another thread I have suggested that Dan Cole is the only England player I feel is any where near being a guaranteed tourist)

Kearney
Bowe
BOD
Joannes Brother
McVisser
Sexton
Laidlaw
Healy
Ross
50 Stone of Grey
POC
SOB
Ferris
Jamie Heaslip
Denton

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Kearney
Bowe
BOD
Joannes Brother
McVisser
Sexton
Laidlaw
Healy
Ross
50 Stone of Grey
POC
SOB
Ferris
Jamie Heaslip
Denton

are you excluding Welsh and English because you are a mix of both?

Also seems to be missing a hooker with an extra back row forward

LondonTiger wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Kearney
Bowe
BOD
Joannes Brother
McVisser
Sexton
Laidlaw
Healy
Ross
50 Stone of Grey
POC
SOB
Ferris
Jamie Heaslip
Denton

are you excluding Welsh and English because you are a mix of both?

Also seems to be missing a hooker with an extra back row forward

Sorry Ford for Heaslip

1. Jenkins
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. AWJ
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Denton
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Visser
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Foden

I picked a lot of Welsh players, I actually think I even short changed them a little leaving out Halfpenny.

LondonTiger, I don't know how you think POC looked over the hill last season. As far as I'm concerned he played great, he looked better than he'd done in a long time, it's just injuries spoilt it, not form.

LondonTiger wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Kearney
Bowe
BOD
Joannes Brother
McVisser
Sexton
Laidlaw
Healy
Ross
50 Stone of Grey
POC
SOB
Ferris
Jamie Heaslip
Denton

are you excluding Welsh and English because you are a mix of both?

Also seems to be missing a hooker with an extra back row forward

When you have to resort to picking Ross over Jones it's pretty obvious what he's doing, the little scamp.

Kearney
Bowe
BOD
Tuilagi
Visser
Sexton
Blair
Healy
Ford
Cole
Gray
POC
Ferris
Rennie
O'Brien

8 is a hard position for me, but if I was allowed to pick Faletau I probably wouldn't. I am not sure on Morgan or Heaslip and kind of want O'Brien in.

Heres my Non Welsh Lions

Healy
Ford
Cole
POC
Gray
Ferris
Heaslip
Rennie

Laidlaw
Sexton

Bowe
BOD
Tuilagi
Visser

Kearney

Bench - Corbisiero, Best, Morgan, Robshaw, Care, Flood, Foden

Bedford

I'd prob agree with your lineup except SOB and Ryan on the bench for Morgan and Robshaw, and Blair for Care.

Even taking partiality into it the back row is the area where there will be some disappointed players when squad announced

And locks I think.

Morgan
Ferris
Heaslip
Lydiate
Robshaw
Wood
Warburton
Rennie
SOB
POM
Ryan
Falatau
Beattie
Barclay
Denton

15 back rowers into one tour doesn't go!

Lawes
Palmer
Botha
Gray
Kellock
POC
DOC
Ryan
AWJ
Davies
Charteris
Evans

12 locks again...

Pick your test XXII. One condition...... you cannot pick anyone from your nation in your test team.

This could be fun as I am free to pick from all four home nations.

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Cole
4 Gray
5 O'Connell
6 Rennie
7 Robshaw
8 Denton
9 Phillips
10 Sexton
11 North
12 Roberts
13 Davies
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

Subs
Ford
Ross
Ferris
Blair
Flood
Tuilagi

I miss a prop, but don't know who to pick.

Billtong I find that 22 nothing short of amazing!!!

I am a little dissapointed in you.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Billtong I find that 22 nothing short of amazing!!!

I am a little dissapointed in you.

So, ya like it then?

Very much, except for about 8 - 10 of the 22

Whats your thinking behind POC over a number of very talented options?

And you HAVE to explain that backrow combo!!!

Backrow, I like Rennie's workrate and although not a Lydiate or Warburton at the breakdown, he is in my opinion an allround better player, Denton and Robshaw can carry ball well and aren't afraid of the dirty work either.

Phillips for me always ups his game in the Lions Jumper, and then for the last 20 you bring in Blair who will change the dynamics around the fringes and rucks.

The same goes for Flood, you replace Sexton adter 60 and the Lions can go bonkers with their backline in the last twenty.

I picked the combination of North, Roberts and Davies because the three of them have combined well for some nicely executed tries in the last year.

Tuilagi in for Roberts when you take Phillips off, so your strike runner becomes harder too stop and rather having Phillips do the runs from close in, you have Tuilagi running at angles and force from a different channel.

To be honest, I believe O'Connol should be the captain, his experience next to the monster and youthfull exuberance of Gray will balance nicely.

I based my selections from the players I enjoyed during the RWC and six nations.

I understand your reasoning with the backline, I can even justify POC's inclusion, but your back row?!?!?!?!

I like Rennie, and he's had good results V Pocock and Oz in the past, but Robshaw for his carrying over someone like SOB? or Ferris? Who I think are far more dynamic, destructive and hard working, I could even consider giving Rennie the 6 shirt and Warbs the 7 if your trying to counter Pocock but Robshaw The phrase Pocock's B1tch comes to mind!

Also Denton, I like him, he has proved very usefull, but he has gone missing defencively a few times, ye he's a crowd pleaser of a defender, but he does leave gaps, and isn't much use at the breakdown. I couldn't justify a more disciplined player like Heaslip losing out because of him.

thebluesmancometh wrote:And locks I think.

Morgan
Ferris
Heaslip
Lydiate
Robshaw
Wood
Warburton
Rennie
SOB
POM
Ryan
Falatau
Beattie
Barclay
Denton

15 back rowers into one tour doesn't go!

Lawes
Palmer
Botha
Gray
Kellock
POC
DOC
Ryan
AWJ
Davies
Charteris
Evans

12 locks again...

Yh there will be some tough calls made there and some upset players, I guess versatility will have a lot to do with selection.

Hey, I have to get something wrong, I am working off memory here, I have Ferris on the bench if it goes haywire.

bedford

If I was being harsh I would eliminate 4 or so from each list, but even then I wouldn't want to rock up to an office with all of those in and tell who's in and who's out!!!

There's just so many contenders for the three back row positions. We'll spend more time arguing about that trio than anything else. So don't be to harsh on someone for picking one good player over another good player.

1. Jenkins (W)
2. Ford (S)
3. A Jones (W)
4. Gray (S)
5. AW Jones (W)
6. Robshaw (E)
7. Rennie (S)
8. Denton (S)
9. Youngs (E)
10. Flood (E)
11. North (W)
12. Roberts (W)
13. Davies (W)
14. Cuthbert (W)
15. Foden (E)

7 Welsh
4 English
4 Scotish

thebluesmancometh wrote:bedford

If I was being harsh I would eliminate 4 or so from each list, but even then I wouldn't want to rock up to an office with all of those in and tell who's in and who's out!!!

Out of the 2nd row I would most probably eliminate Botha, Davies Ryan and Kellock but the back row is nigh on impossible to narrow down with everyone having their own merits

Feckless

Don't get me wrong I wasn't having a pop, just curios as to why.

Similar to your reasoning, Why would you select a misfiring Youngs and a Flood who is looking more and more like he's made of glass, and can't secure an England place over Farrell?

When you consider GS winning players like Phillips, Preistland, HC winning players such as Sexton, Reddan, or even England starters of Care, Dickson?

Feckless

Didn't even see Foden, over the standout FB in Kearney? Or the match winning boot of 1/2p?

I'm open to Phillips. Big game player. Has been crucial in a couple of Welsh wins over Ireland. Was great on the last Lions tour. Comes up with big plays at crucual moments I'd have no problems with him. Just prefer Youngs style, assuming they're both confident and on form.

I don't rate Priestland at all really. I picked Flood over Farrell because again, I prefer Flood's style. And when he's on form, himself and Young could get get the big Welsh backs moving.

I'm a big Foden fan. Can't pick Kearney because I'm Irish. Prefer him to Kearney to be honest. I think he's excellent. Great tackler, dangerous runner. Although I understand 1/2p could be the difference between winning and losing with his kicks. I just picked the fullback I prefer, on the assumption that we'll score tries and our flyhalf will be on form with the boot. Wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if 1/2p started. Just prefer Foden.

I did pick 7 Welsh players. And 1/2p, Phillips, Lydiate or Warburton were narrowly left out.

This would be my test squad without Scots:

1.Healy 2.Best 3.Cole 4.Evans 5.Lawes 6.Ferris 7.SOB 8.Falatau 9.Youngs 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Joseph 14.Bowe 15.Foden

16.Jones 17.Hartley 18.Davies 19.Warburton 20.Care 21.Priestland 22.Halfpenny

Very tough leaving out POC, Lydiate, Phillips, J Davies and Kearney. Would probably pick them on a different day.

Given how Australia kicked the ball so poorly against NZ, I want the best counter attacking full back available, and that for me is Foden. I also went for Cole at 3 because I think he's good enough to trouble Australia in the tight (despite not being quite as good a scrummager as Jones), but excellent in the loose.

Lawes over POC - well, finger in the wind frankly.

Ferris over Lydiate - again, it's really a form prediction rather than anything else. When Ferris is fully fit, I see him as the more complete player for now.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I understand your reasoning with the backline, I can even justify POC's inclusion, but your back row?!?!?!?!

I like Rennie, and he's had good results V Pocock and Oz in the past, but Robshaw for his carrying over someone like SOB? or Ferris? Who I think are far more dynamic, destructive and hard working, I could even consider giving Rennie the 6 shirt and Warbs the 7 if your trying to counter Pocock but Robshaw The phrase Pocock's B1tch comes to mind!

Also Denton, I like him, he has proved very usefull, but he has gone missing defencively a few times, ye he's a crowd pleaser of a defender, but he does leave gaps, and isn't much use at the breakdown. I couldn't justify a more disciplined player like Heaslip losing out because of him.

Has to be said I disagree with that comment. Denton's tackling is one of his strongest attributes. He has made several high profile try saving tackles for Edinburgh and one against England in the 6N where he not only prevented a certain try but won a penalty too for forcing the English player to hold onto the ball.

Whatever else Denton's weaknesses are tackling is not one of them.

It's interesting to see how lions teams are shaped when players have to pick from the other 3 nations and not their own. It kind of forces posters to assess the abilities of their fav's competition.

Healey
Best
Jones
O'Connell (c.)/Hamilton
Gray
Brown(c.)/Ferris
Rennie
Denton
Peel
Sexton
Bowe
Roberts
JD2
Halfpenny
Kearney

Jenkins/Ford/Murray/Ryan/SOB/Laidlaw/Visser/Blair

ChequeredJersey wrote:Healey
Best
Jones
O'Connell (c.)/Hamilton
Gray
Brown(c.)/Ferris
Rennie
Denton
Peel
Sexton
Bowe
Roberts
JD2
Halfpenny
Kearney

Jenkins/Ford/Murray/Ryan/SOB/Laidlaw/Visser/Blair

Brown? As in Kelly Brown? For a long time I have said he is Scotland's best player. Nice to see him getting recognition in more than one post/thread on this subject.

Rugger

Thats exactly what I meant by calling Denton a defencive crowd pleaser. He is a strong tackler but his defence can let him down. Positionally he was at fault for 2 or 3 tries last 6N, and off the back of the defencive scrum is slow to get out. He also tends to stay way too tight to the rucks, I noticed a few times last season he stayed at 1st man and forced both props open to around 15 metres out, doesn't sound like much I know but did anyone see Genias solo try V Wales, thats what happens when you find props too wide.

Chequered

Peel and no George North?!

Are these teams devoid of form, injuries and taken as of tomorrow because some selections are absolutely baffling!!

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Denton

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearny

Jenkins, Ford, A.Jones, Charteris, Warburton, Visser, Murray

Bluesman, why don't you put yours down?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chequered

Peel and no George North?!

Are these teams devoid of form, injuries and taken as of tomorrow because some selections are absolutely baffling!!

Peel's been good at Sale, I'd rather have Laidlaw as a utility Hb on te bench. Maybe Blair but he has not looked great internationally for a while that I've seen. I would rather take anyone than Phillips to Australia, I don't rate him and he was Genia's bunny over the summer. Peel the best non-English option at 9 IMo and if rather have Halfpenny than North any place any time

Can't see how anyone can advoate taking Phillips to Australia. I know he will be but ImO it's a series losing mistake

Rugger

My reading of what Bluesman has written there is more to do with Denton's positional discipline in defence rather than his tackling ability. A similar criticism can be made of Manu Tuilagi - capable of some superb crowd-pleasing big hits, but may not be the smartest defender.

As for my suggested XV (excluding England, so basically Dan Cole...), and considering that this is to play Australia, so we need a combination of good athleticism in the pack but not at the expence of power to overwhelm the Aussies in the scrum:

1 - Gethin Jenkins
2 - Ross Ford
3 - Adam Jones
4 - Richie Gray
5 - Bradley Davies
6 - Stephen Ferris
7 - Sam Warburton (c)
8 - Jamie Heaslip

9 - Could be any of them. Will probably be Phillips
10 - Priestland (I think he get the backline moving better than Sexton, plus it's a mainly Welsh back division)
11 - North
12 - Roberts
13 - BOD if he's anything like fit
14 - 1/2p (because of his goal kicking, and he's a plenty good enough winger)
15 - Kearney

Subs (assuming 2 props):
Healy
Best
Ross
POC (in case we need to bring on a wise old head)
SOB
A N Other scrum half (I've always rated Cussiter, but it's really 'pull a name from a hat')
Sexton
Hogg (as an impact strike runner)

I have done based on form of last season and the summer...

Healy
Ford
Cole
Gray
Kellock
Ferris
Rennie
SOB
Laidlaw
Sexton
Bowe
BOD???
Tuilagi
Visser?/Ashton?
Kearney

Sadly without the welsh boys though the team, looks lacking a little, especially the backline.

The wing spot just has no real options, Ashton needs time to settle at sarries and some int form, Visser needs to prove himself, Jones is down the pecking order but close to those two as is Zebo IMO.

I nearly sacrificed Ferris for Robshaw for his work on the floor, but decided once you pick your team around your oppositions strengths youve already lost.

SOB is the most dynamic and usefull 8 at present, and has destroyed the Oz team before, as has Rennie got the better of Pocock.
Quick question Blue, how do you think your pack will hold up to Pocock and Higginbottom at the breakdown? You have no natural fetcher, 2 very mobile locks with no nous at the ruck, and even your front 3 aren't particularly usefull at ruck time.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Can't see how anyone can advoate taking Phillips to Australia. I know he will be but ImO it's a series losing mistake

If you're referring to me, I was stuck after not being able to pick the English lads-normally I wouldn't. He performed well in 2009, and my thinking is that the Lions setup raises his game.

Peel's been good at Sale, I'd rather have Laidlaw as a utility Hb on te bench. Maybe Blair but he has not looked great internationally for a while that I've seen. I would rather take anyone than Phillips to Australia, I don't rate him and he was Genia's bunny over the summer. Peel the best non-English option at 9 IMo and if rather have Halfpenny than North any place any time

NOW THATS AN ANSWER!

I can't disagree with any point you make, except in Phillips defence it wasn't his fault he was Genias bunny, in the first test his pack was totally outplayed and outthought at the breakdown and gave him nothing to work with whatsoever, Genia had a bit of an armchair ride. He looked better in 2 and 3!

New Zealand based their game plan on Aus' strengths in the 4N this year. Seemed to work out ok

I Love the Welsh backline in particular their strike runners. But this whole "Visser needs to prove himself" is a strange comment to make.

He has played 3 International tests if you include the Baa Baas. He has Scored 4 tries in those 3 international tests.

He has been the pro 12 top scorer 2 years running in a team that routinely gets bashed and in his opening game against Munster he scored a hatrick of tries.

What else does he have to prove?

Anyone else worry about certain players being selected for the wrong reasons?

Take Gray for example, good ball carrier, dynamic, can offload, and is a monster, very tempting to play him alongside someone similar like Evans but Grays lineout fell apart last season, his work on the ground is ineffective and with the likes of SOB, Ferris, Denton, Rennie, even Healy or Geth we have ball carriers all day long who do the job as well as him but offer more too.

Rugger

How as he gone on a long tour?
How many has he scored V SH opposition?
Whats his 6N record like?
How does he stand up defencively to top international pressure?