Lions pick worst performing test coach for Australia tour in 2013

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The British & Irish Lions somehow ended up having to pick Warren Gatland as head coach for the tour to Australia next year.

Gatland has had two periods as international test coach - once with Ireland from 1998-2001 and currently with Wales, though he hasnt given that one up just yet.

At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

This is the guy who's supposed to get the best out of four countries next year against southern opposition, when he can't even manage to get it out of one over the last four years.

Is Gatlands faliure to deliver down to his game plan or the player's mental strenght. It seems to be that they are just that one score away always but in the NH they were getting that score eg. v Ireland , England and France

The way they try to play has not been effective agaisnt any team from the SH, it will not work this time. I'm expecting it but will be annoyed if it happens.

Thomond wrote:The way they try to play has not been effective agaisnt any team from the SH, it will not work this time. I'm expecting it but will be annoyed if it happens.

To be fair they are usually there or there abouts until the end. Its that they can't finish and I'm not sure if it down to a missing ingredint or they don't have the level of fitness to see it till the end

There or thereabouts is not what is needed. They have made stupid errors in games and looked toothless v OZ at times. Lions lose if we paly like Wales and we won't give ourselves a fighting chance.

Thomond wrote:The way they try to play has not been effective agaisnt any team from the SH, it will not work this time. I'm expecting it but will be annoyed if it happens.

Not true. There have been games against both Oz and SA (not so much against NZ) where Wales' strategy certainly caused the opposition problems, games we should have won. The failure on those occasions was due to not finishing the job, not taking that final step across the finish line. The players have bottled many games in the past in this fashion but that's not to say the SH sides have been completely untroubled by Wales' approach as you are indicating. Just look at the WC clash with the Boks, we had them by the throat but wasted a magnificent opportunity to record a famous win.

As Brendan says we are most certainly the mentally weakest of the Lions sides when it comes to toppling one of the big three. From a Welsh perspective that has been a major cause for concern over the past 5-7 years, one which has caused excessive grief on a number of occasions. But what is there to say it'll rub off on the Lions? We could easily have won the 09 tour which Gatland was an active part of and it certainly wasn't Welsh players that cost us the series.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

What Region do you follow View?

Scarlets

Knowsit17 wrote:As Brendan says we are most certainly the mentally weakest of the Lions sides when it comes to toppling one of the big three. From a Welsh perspective that has been a major cause for concern over the past 5-7 years, one which has caused excessive grief on a number of occasions. But what is there to say it'll rub off on the Lions? We could easily have won the 09 tour which Gatland was an active part of and it certainly wasn't Welsh players that cost us the series.

Having too many of them was a big factor in the series loss. It could be the same again unfortunately.

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

What Region do you follow View?

Scarlets

I quite like the way that the Scarlets play - attack minded like Wasps & Harlequins last Saturday.
I also had the pleasure of meeting some Scarlets fans when they visited AP a few years gone by. I don't think you would have been one of them though.

The choice of Gatland is the best of a bad lot. His record against SH opposition, particularly Australia, is poor.

It is his coaching team that he selects that will be the making or breaking of this tour. According to him, we'll know who they are before the November Internationals. He wants to keep some continuity from 2009, a big nod to his Welsh coaching staff, but he recognises that he needs to bring in fresh thinking and to have a uniting coaching team.

Schmidt is one name being bandied about. Might he also look at one of the other British or Irish coaches?

Are you suggesting that they pick the coach with the best of the coaches when it comes to SH opposition - Andy Robinson. A coach who has routinely lost the big matches, or maybe Stuart Lancaster an extremely inexperienced coach or maybe Declan Kidney, who has failed to get the best out of an extremely talented Irish team since 2009. If you were doing it on home nation teams alone, Gatland has to be picked. I would have chosen Conor O'Shea, with Sean Edwards and one other (perhaps Michael Bradley as backs coach) but his lack of international coaching experience could be a problem.

123456789 wrote:Are you suggesting that they pick the coach with the best of the coaches when it comes to SH opposition - Andy Robinson. A coach who has routinely lost the big matches, or maybe Stuart Lancaster an extremely inexperienced coach or maybe Declan Kidney, who has failed to get the best out of an extremely talented Irish team since 2009. If you were doing it on home nation teams alone, Gatland has to be picked. I would have chosen Conor O'Shea, with Sean Edwards and one other (perhaps Michael Bradley as backs coach) but his lack of international coaching experience could be a problem.

I'm suggesting that Gatland has a primary function in building belief in him and his coaching team that they can deliver the goods in Australia. Right now, there's just him. The next piece of the foundation is the coaching team that works with him, before they get around to the tricky task of picking the squad.

It ain't as easy as it looks in getting that balance right.

Gatland has been appointed, whinge all you like it's happened.

It's who he decides on as the coaching staff that are going to be key...

IMO the welsh boys are a no go, they are too inexperienced and are there for reasons other than pure coaching ability.

I'd want Edwards obviously, would consider O shea too but I would also consider Rob Baxter.

Well all the talk has been that its Rowntree, Edwards, Howley and/or possibly Schmidt. The WRU announced they would release Howley earlier this week which kind of suggests hes in for sure.

Whatever gets Howley out of the Welsh set up I'm ok with!!

Rowntree I can understand, I've heard nothing but good things about him!

Edwards is an obvious inclusion and prob deserves so.

Schmidt I can understand as well but I just wouldn't.

I think the Lions have history we seem to be missing these days, I for one wouldn't have given Gatland the job though so what do I know.

beshocked wrote:Uh oh how could I forget Ferris in the backrow too.

Ryan Jones wouldn't get in ahead of these guys in the backrow. Most can play more than 1 backrow position too.

Ashton also has good experience scoring vs the Aussies.

For your information R Jones has played for Wales at 4, 5, 6, 8 and 7 (as a sub), he has also played for the Ospreys in all 5 positions! R Jones was the Wales most consistent player last year but he was a victim of being too flexible and covering every injury. He would be my choice at 6 or 8 ahead of the current Welsh players and certainly ahead of your choices.

Really glam???!!

Ryan Jones was a victim of running in custard, not his versatility!!

He was a very good performer (off the bench) but I wouldn't want him playing full 80 for Wales let alone the lions.

No travelling for Jones IMO.

To go with the three, no four, countries comment.

When asked who might be captain, Galand replied: "Paul O'Connell, Brian O'Driscoll, Sam Warburton and Chris Robshaw are obvious candidates because they're the leaders of their countries and they have experience but the one thing you have to guarantee is selection in the team. You've got to be mindful of that, and if the captain isn't playing well you might have to make a couple of tough calls."

Wonder what Ross Ford must be feeling?

I swear if Gatland was a poster on here he wouldve been banned within a week.

I'm not so sure. Maybe he'd follow Hersh's example, speak all the guff he wants while somehow managing to avoid a ban

Pot Hale wrote:At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

Gatland didn't coach us until 2008. He did not take charge of any game in 2007, just to point out your glaringful error.

Since that time (and off the top of my head) England against the sH have one more win than Wales, as do Ireland; Scotland have two more wins. Aside from Eng vs Aus and Ire vs SA all were pretty lucky. Two of those teams won one 6 Nations each during this period also. Now is that really a lot better? IMO, no. Now Pot I don't expect an answer because you've avoided everybody else, but does this mean Johnson, Kidney and Robinson were stronger candidates?

Morgannwg wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

Gatland didn't coach us until 2008. He did not take charge of any game in 2007, just to point out your glaringful error.

Since that time (and off the top of my head) England against the sH have one more win than Wales, as do Ireland; Scotland have two more wins. Aside from Eng vs Aus and Ire vs SA all were pretty lucky. Two of those teams won one 6 Nations each during this period also. Now is that really a lot better? IMO, no. Now Pot I don't expect an answer because you've avoided everybody else, but does this mean Johnson, Kidney and Robinson were stronger candidates?

Glaring error, not glaringful. The error is yours. I didn't say he took charge of any game in 2007.

And if you view Scotland's and Ireland's victories over Australia as pretty lucky, well that's your view. But the bottom line is they won. In Australia. Gatland has had 5 attempts against them in 9 months and got zip. The decision is made on him being coach. His SH test record doesn't inspire though, does it?

Well if it is his record since Dec 2007 then what do you mean? It's only been his record since Sept 2008, that's almost a years difference.

Yes they were lucky. That's not taking anything away from them for winning though, as I know you almost always need the luck to be going your way. I know how it is when it isn't going your teams way too. So all in all, they don't really have a better record then especially considering those teams have won less tournaments? I'm not inspired and might not be if it was a different coach. Australia are a good team, you'd see that if you play them regulary, like the Lions will. If no other has a more inspiring SH test record then you must be making some other point in your article which I have clearly missed.

Morgannwg wrote:Well if it is his record since Dec 2007 then what do you mean? It's only been his record since Sept 2008, that's almost a years difference.

Yes they were lucky. That's not taking anything away from them for winning though, as I know you almost always need the luck to be going your way. I know how it is when it isn't going your teams way too. So all in all, they don't really have a better record then especially considering those teams have won less tournaments? I'm not inspired and might not be if it was a different coach. Australia are a good team, you'd see that if you play them regulary, like the Lions will. If no other has a more inspiring SH test record then you must be making some other point in your article which I have clearly missed.

Gatland started coaching Wales from 1 Dec 2007. One of his stated ambitions was to defeat SH opposition. And in the SH. Since he started coaching Wales, that's been his record. One victory in 2008 at home.

He's been pretty unlucky with his coaching against SH teams given the repeated number of attempts. That's taking away from them losing though, as I know you almost always need the luck to be going the other way for that to happen. I know how it is when it is going your teams way too. So all in all, they do really have a better record then especially considering those teams have won less tournaments. Australia are a good team, you'd see that if you play them regularly. And manage to beat them. It might happen for Gatland yet.

He didn't though. He started coaching end of January in 2008. Though I'm not sure when he put pen to paper or actually moved to Wales. You're referring to the SA game in Dec 07 right? Yes, he wasn't in charge for that one. Nor the Aus series, which you've stated. So don't see how it is his record. You also view the 6 Nations wins as not much when pointing out my view of some certain wins involving other nations, a couple which I deemed to be lucky. Well you can't have it both ways seeing as the botton line being Wales won all those games that lead to Grand Slams . Pot Hale... More like Pot Kettle.

Care to tell us then who is the better candidate seeing Gatland is the worst of a bad bunch according to you? Or you going to carry on regurgitating what's already been discussed in the past few months? (That's everything you've written in your posts).

Gatland first took up his duties as Wales coach in December 2007, his appointment was announced in November. Here's the article to avoid further confusion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7025721.stm

He started with Wales in Dec 2007. I wasn't including the SA game (24 November under Davies) because his first game was in the 6 Nations in 2008. It's irrelevant anyway as to which month he started. The point is about his record against SH nations since he started as coach with Wales. 19 tests, 1 win. With his deputy, Howley, fronting for him, in June. (They still lost though.)

I said you could point at test level to his two Grand Slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much. (As in I don't rate Declan Kidney's overall performance very highly.) Moreover, winning two grand slams would surely point to him being able to achieve more success against SH teams. He hasn't. That's the point.

You're stating the opposite of what I actually said in an earlier post: "The choice of Gatland is the best of a bad lot. His record against SH opposition, particularly Australia, is poor."

Don't worry, he'll probably blow NZ and Austalia out of the water in November and we'll all feel a lot more confident.

Have faith. Peace. Love the World. Hug a planet today.

When the time comes we'll all link arms in mutual belief and support regardless of the circumstances! Odds are there to be upset, past records there to be defied. What's important is what the coaches and players do next year, not what they have done before that!

Pot Hale, i'm interested to know your choice for the head coach role? As Gatland is the best of a bad bunch, as you say, which coach worse than him in the bad bunch would you take instead? Kidney is the only one I guess. Would Ireland release him for the required time?

I suppose that if the Lions have selected the wrong coach they've got nearly a year to remedy the situation.

I'm still a little confused...

Are we bashing Gatland already for not delivering against the SH sides? Or are we bashing Gatland for only producing a team and gameplan that can beat the NH side?

If we are only interested in SH games then surely Robinson is the leader in games won with the weakest team in the british Isles, imagine what he could do with a lions team eh?

PS pothale, Gatland won't be involved in the AI's will he? I though this lions tour needed full time comitment from the head coach and he was released from his welsh contract for the year.

Interestingly England, Ireland and Scotland have all beaten Australia the last time they have played them. They have also all beaten Australia the last time they have played them in the southern hemisphere.

Wales on the other hand have played Australia 5 times in the last 10 months and have lost them all. They have in fact lost their last 7 matches against Oz most of them being with Gatland at the helm.

That said he is still the most deserved choice as Lions coach.

GunsGerms wrote:Interestingly England, Ireland and Scotland have all beaten Australia the last time they have played them. They have also all beaten Australia the last time they have played them in the southern hemisphere.

Wales on the other hand have played Australia 5 times in the last 10 months and have lost them all. They have in fact lost their last 7 matches against Oz most of them being with Gatland at the helm.

That said he is still the most deserved choice as Lions coach.

Ozzy, Red Stag and myself went over this last night on the podcast (http://www.v2journal.com/v2-rugby-podcast-2-5th-september-2012.html - the Gatland bit is at the start of part 4). All of the other possible candidates (and we went over a few) have their own flaws.

Love the idea of a 606v2 podcast. I listen to them all the time so good work. There isnt enough rugby podcasts out there.

By the way have you looked into getting it onto itunes?

GunsGerms wrote:Love the idea of a 606v2 podcast. I listen to them all the time so good work. There isnt enough rugby podcasts out there.

By the way have you looked into getting it onto itunes?

Adam was having a look, I gather there's a fair amount of paperwork involved. I'll follow up with him over the weekend.

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

You won't see Quins defend that poorly again. Probably ever. We did have a centre at wing against Wade though and hopefully you'll get to see what that man can do in the 6N this year. (the answer is score and set up many many tries, considering he did it last year behind a barely 3rd choice Wasps backrow and a pack based on Payne! and a few kids, I can't wait to see what he does with some ball)

ChequeredJersey wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

You won't see Quins defend that poorly again. Probably ever. We did have a centre at wing against Wade though and hopefully you'll get to see what that man can do in the 6N this year. (the answer is score and set up many many tries, considering he did it last year behind a barely 3rd choice Wasps backrow and a pack based on Payne! and a few kids, I can't wait to see what he does with some ball)

Chequeredjersey I am going to have to quote this if Quins do defend this poorly again which I think you will at some point.

like next week

Pot Hale wrote:He started with Wales in Dec 2007. I wasn't including the SA game (24 November under Davies) because his first game was in the 6 Nations in 2008. It's irrelevant anyway as to which month he started. The point is about his record against SH nations since he started as coach with Wales. 19 tests, 1 win. With his deputy, Howley, fronting for him, in June. (They still lost though.)

I said you could point at test level to his two Grand Slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much. (As in I don't rate Declan Kidney's overall performance very highly.) Moreover, winning two grand slams would surely point to him being able to achieve more success against SH teams. He hasn't. That's the point.

You're stating the opposite of what I actually said in an earlier post: "The choice of Gatland is the best of a bad lot. His record against SH opposition, particularly Australia, is poor."

That's fair enough. I am sorry, I thought I remembered that game being in December, the world cup in France must have started sooner than I thought.As pointed out and as you firmly put there isn't any other choice so I still don't see why you're regurgitating.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm still a little confused...

Are we bashing Gatland already for not delivering against the SH sides? Or are we bashing Gatland for only producing a team and gameplan that can beat the NH side?

If we are only interested in SH games then surely Robinson is the leader in games won with the weakest team in the british Isles, imagine what he could do with a lions team eh?

PS pothale, Gatland won't be involved in the AI's will he? I though this lions tour needed full time comitment from the head coach and he was released from his welsh contract for the year.

Why the confusion, it's Gatland/Wales bashing yes, but we've come to expect that. In case you forgot all the last three Lions tour losses have been the fault of Wales.

Gatland has been released, but will be available for 2 Ai games. The final two I guess, NZ and Aus.

Robinson is a choice IMO.

His 6N record is poor, but every year people are talking about them, he's bringing some quality players into the scot set up, and delivering versus SH opposition on a regular basis...

I'd bring him on board for a bit of inspiration if nothing else. Rowntree, Baxter and maybe O shea too.

Onkidney if the IRFU were told that the lions wanted Kidney for his last year I think they would happyly let him go and call it quits.

Personally I would have picked Johnson. As much as I didn't like his style or him but he has a good record as a player and coach against Aus and he knows how to bully them and with a few better players he could have won the series 3-0.

Gatland tries to play Aus at their game and keeps losing.

I don't think it is as much how a coach has done but if they can turn the Lions into a team and understands what it is to be a lion.

I also don't think a current national coach can be the lions coach as there will be bias either towards wales or aginst wales (as he tries to show he's not biased). He then has to come back to wales for the AI internationals and deal with people he didn't pick. He also then has to tell someone in the wales team in the 6Ns that they are better then say their opposing Irish player that he picked for the lions. It just wont end well.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Robinson is a choice IMO.

His 6N record is poor, but every year people are talking about them, he's bringing some quality players into the scot set up, and delivering versus SH opposition on a regular basis...

I'd bring him on board for a bit of inspiration if nothing else. Rowntree, Baxter and maybe O shea too.

Yes, those infamous dark horses.

Pot Hale wrote:To go with the three, no four, countries comment.

When asked who might be captain, Galand replied: "Paul O'Connell, Brian O'Driscoll, Sam Warburton and Chris Robshaw are obvious candidates because they're the leaders of their countries and they have experience but the one thing you have to guarantee is selection in the team. You've got to be mindful of that, and if the captain isn't playing well you might have to make a couple of tough calls."

Wonder what Ross Ford must be feeling?

Pretty miffed I would imagine since he is the only home nations captain to win in Australia in the last year.

Morg

How many of the last few seasons have people looked at the Scots and said 'I think they can' only to be let down by stupid errors, lack of concentration etc... They had all but beaten Wales a few years ago, given Ireland a beating, and have been unlucky V Italy.

IMO Scotland are getting better year on year and with the side he inherited fair play to him!!

beshocked wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

You won't see Quins defend that poorly again. Probably ever. We did have a centre at wing against Wade though and hopefully you'll get to see what that man can do in the 6N this year. (the answer is score and set up many many tries, considering he did it last year behind a barely 3rd choice Wasps backrow and a pack based on Payne! and a few kids, I can't wait to see what he does with some ball)

Chequeredjersey I am going to have to quote this if Quins do defend this poorly again which I think you will at some point.

Fair enough, i've said it so you can quote it. Usually our defence is pretty good, the only other time recently we've been exposed quite like that was against Tigers at the Stoop and a very weakened backline featuring 4th and 5th choice centres against Toulouse

thebluesmancometh wrote:like next week

We'll see. Don't want to underestimate Welsh so I'm not going to comment on that game yet

Ah I didn't know it was Welsh...

I am suitably ready for egg on my face then, unless welsh score a try, or penalty, or break the line once.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:To go with the three, no four, countries comment.

When asked who might be captain, Galand replied: "Paul O'Connell, Brian O'Driscoll, Sam Warburton and Chris Robshaw are obvious candidates because they're the leaders of their countries and they have experience but the one thing you have to guarantee is selection in the team. You've got to be mindful of that, and if the captain isn't playing well you might have to make a couple of tough calls."

Wonder what Ross Ford must be feeling?

Pretty miffed I would imagine since he is the only home nations captain to win in Australia in the last year.

Id also argue hes the only one of the captains you be hard pressed to come up with a justification for leaving out of the team. Robshaw, youd be hard pressed to come up with a justification for putting in the team.

Well said Biscuit. Barring injury or a massive dip in form Best and Ford are certainly likely tourists.

However Ford's captaincy of Scotland is not a certainty with Kelly Brown returning from injury.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:To go with the three, no four, countries comment.

When asked who might be captain, Galand replied: "Paul O'Connell, Brian O'Driscoll, Sam Warburton and Chris Robshaw are obvious candidates because they're the leaders of their countries and they have experience but the one thing you have to guarantee is selection in the team. You've got to be mindful of that, and if the captain isn't playing well you might have to make a couple of tough calls."

Wonder what Ross Ford must be feeling?

Pretty miffed I would imagine since he is the only home nations captain to win in Australia in the last year.

Id also argue hes the only one of the captains you be hard pressed to come up with a justification for leaving out of the team. Robshaw, youd be hard pressed to come up with a justification for putting in the team.

He is a leader, he has been the premier 7 in the English Premiership for several seasons, captain of the premier champions, was sublime in the first test v South Africa, has an engine that doesnt stop, tackles all day long...he can play 6 and has even dabbled at 8. Is a very good link man.

I appreciate we (england) are a developing team (work in progress) but i still dont think all of our players are utterly inferior to the rest of the British / Irish teams.

Is Robshaw's captaincy of England guaranteed once Tom Wood re-enters the fold? I was under the impression Wood was being touted as skipper prior to getting injured. He also posed with the other skippers pre-Six Nations

And then Robshaw also faces the threat of Hartley, who many England fans assure me is Lions skipper material despite his glaring disciplinary record