Arum: Marquez next for Pacquiao.

First topic message reminder :

The Mosley fight still has to play but Arum is already planing Pacquiao's next bout.

The fight will complete an thrilling trilogy, when Juan Manual Marquez step into the ring for a 3rd time.

There first fight was an epic battle Pacquiao knocking down Marquez 3 times in the first round only for Marquez to come back with the help of mistake by one of the judges to claim a draw.

The rematch was 4 years in the waiting but is was worth the wait, a great technical battle, his speed chess, Pacquiao put Marquez down again only the once but much more heavier knockdown that the previous ones.

The fight swayed back and forth and in the end Pacquiao sneaked a SD.

Since then they have both move up the weights, and had some impressive victories so what can we expect from the 3rd and probably final fight from these two greats.

Many of you were calling for this fight, and with Marquez being a free agent it should be easy to negotiate and will probably happen in November.

Pacquiao just has to get through Mosley now and the trilogy can be complete.


http://www.boxingscene.com/pacquiao-vs-marquez-likely-next-manny-says-arum--38132

coxy0001 wrote:

Bob wrote:I was genuinely worried for a while as to whether Arum would dig up Chico Coralles, just so Manny could stop him faster than Floyd did.

In D4s eyes he'd still

1) Possess those big swinging hooks
2) Lots of power
3) Never write off a great fighter

I never rated Coralles that highly, bit overrated IMO

You consider a guy Floyd beat to be overrated quel surprise.

oxring wrote:I think coxy would like to know the following D4:

How competitive was Marquez against Floyd - above 140lbs?

Was he able to get his shots off?

Was his timing there?

Did he have any speed or power?

Jeff and Windy are also curious. As am I.

You have not yet answered these questions - please do, I'd genuinely like your opinion

Me 3, i changed my name for this!

oxring wrote:I think coxy would like to know the following D4:

How competitive was Marquez against Floyd - above 140lbs?

Was he able to get his shots off?

Was his timing there?

Did he have any speed or power?

Jeff and Windy are also curious. As am I.

You have not yet answered these questions - please do, I'd genuinely like your opinion

Styles makes fight and Marquez does poorly against defensive fighters, he was also outweight by a stone and had to jump 3 weights in a year. Mayweather had all the advantages.

Moving up that quickly affected his timing.

He seemed slower due the the rapid weight gain and his power didn't carry up with Floyd weight more than a stone than him.

Ah wondered how long before the classic "styles make fights" made its appearance. Has truly become the get out of jail card when seeking to justify Manny fighting a guy Floyd has already smacked around easily.

I'd like to know also how someone who had no right to be in the ring against Mayweather at 147lbs (who is the same size as Pacquiao) is now a viable option for Pacquiao at that weight?

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:I think coxy would like to know the following D4:

How competitive was Marquez against Floyd - above 140lbs?

Was he able to get his shots off?

Was his timing there?

Did he have any speed or power?

Jeff and Windy are also curious. As am I.

You have not yet answered these questions - please do, I'd genuinely like your opinion

Styles makes fight and Marquez does poorly against defensive fighters, he was also outweight by a stone and had to jump 3 weights in a year. Mayweather had all the advantages.

Moving up that quickly affected his timing.

He seemed slower due the the rapid weight gain and his power didn't carry up with Floyd weight more than a stone than him.

' Styles make fights, ' yet again.

For the love of God don't you EVER get fed up with this nonsense ?

Oxring

D4 can obviously give a very good reason as to:

Why hasn't Marquez moved up to fight at a stacked 140lb division if he's so comfortable moving up in weight again?

He has zero to come back with. Will probably say Marquez prefers 135 because they're his lucky numbers or something

coxy0001 wrote:Oxring

D4 can obviously give a very good reason as to:

Why hasn't Marquez moved up to fight at a stacked 140lb division if he's so comfortable moving up in weight again?

He has zero to come back with. Will probably say Marquez prefers 135 because they're his lucky numbers or something

He is looking to fight Judah.

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:I think coxy would like to know the following D4:

How competitive was Marquez against Floyd - above 140lbs?

Was he able to get his shots off?

Was his timing there?

Did he have any speed or power?

Jeff and Windy are also curious. As am I.

You have not yet answered these questions - please do, I'd genuinely like your opinion

Styles makes fight and Marquez does poorly against defensive fighters, he was also outweight by a stone and had to jump 3 weights in a year. Mayweather had all the advantages.

Moving up that quickly affected his timing.

He seemed slower due the the rapid weight gain and his power didn't carry up with Floyd weight more than a stone than him.

Any prove he was outweighted by a stone by someone who is well known not to increase his weight by much after the weigh in
You can't use the excuse that the fight was both a style and size mismatch, if it's the former then the latter isn't all that important

Might Atom

He hasn't got any proof. None whatsoever.

Another baseless accusation. He'll come back and say "he looks bigger" which is the biggest load of Poopie i've ever heard

The ship for this fight has long sailed

If Pacquiao doesn't fight a top top fighter after Mosely then he will officially be going down the Roy Jones Jr route of fighting hasbeens, albeit Pac's opponents will have a name attached.

Any of these at 147lb would be fine;

The winner of Khan-Bradley
The winner of Berto - Ortiz
Williams
Mayweather Jr

Anything else would be a disgrace

I was being sarcastic.

The fight makes sense at 140. Above that its advantage Pacquaio.

However in this case D4 actually has some semblance of an argument.

The Mayweather fight was a bit of a red herring. It would be largely irrelevant what weight they fought at as the outcome would be the same. Marquez is inneffective at chasing a fight. Too much of a counter puncher and Mayweather would always have the speed to keep Marquez chasing him all night. 135, 140, 147 - wouldnt matter much.

Pacquiao is more inclined to chase a fight which is better for Marquez even if the fights at 147. As long as he doesnt have to chase or is forced into the lead then I think the weight might not be as problematic as it first appears.

Hes only fought there once against the top guy so I dont think too much can read into the weight. Id actually be more concerned that Marquez is just getting too long in the tooth now more than the weight. Pacquaio at this point is just too good for him I think and I dont think will be as inclined to come to Marquez as often as the first couple. Marquez is slowing and always looks vunerable early on in fights. If Pacquiao starts fast he could blast him right out of there in a couple of rounds.

wow_junky wrote:The ship for this fight has long sailed

If Pacquiao doesn't fight a top top fighter after Mosely then he will officially be going down the Roy Jones Jr route of fighting hasbeens, albeit Pac's opponents will have a name attached.

Any of these at 147lb would be fine;

The winner of Khan-Bradley
The winner of Berto - Ortiz
Williams
Mayweather Jr

Anything else would be a disgrace

He could fight Bradley but not Khan, Ortiz/Berto need do to do more, behind Marquez in the queue, Williams, last thing he want is to face Pacquiao after what Martinez done to him (a come back fight for him) Mayweather still ducking, and now want another warm up fight before facing Pacquiao even if he does fight again.

Apologies, manos.

These debates get so tangled I forget my own name, sometimes.

Love how Ortiz Berto need to do more. What trees did Clottey pull up to earn his payday. Could ask the same of Marg, who got smacked around by Shane, banned for 12 months before toiling against a journeyman. Is that what is classed as "doing more"?

Manos

Point is he looked slow and sluggish in throwing punches. Nothing changes that no matter which way you look at it. Not to mention how much flab he was carrying.

I'm done with this for today, more to the point done with D4s constant contradictions.

WELTERWEIGHT VS LIGHTWEIGHT and zero changes that. Especially when you factor in how bad Marquez's timing looked above 140. He looked slow and awful, he'd be a sitting duck for an offensive fighter.

Marquez will still have to jump 2 divisions, he tried it before and looked shocking. He's even said himself he'd "rather not go to 147".

Rather than the "dehydrator" we should call Manny the "flabinator"

Clottey/Margarito > Ortiz/Berto

rowley wrote:Love how Ortiz Berto need to do more. What trees did Clottey pull up to earn his payday. Could ask the same of Marg, who got smacked around by Shane, banned for 12 months before toiling against a journeyman. Is that what is classed as "doing more"?

Don't expect a sensible reply.

You'd get more sense from a coma patient

Night all. Barring D4.

coxy0001 wrote:

rowley wrote:Love how Ortiz Berto need to do more. What trees did Clottey pull up to earn his payday. Could ask the same of Marg, who got smacked around by Shane, banned for 12 months before toiling against a journeyman. Is that what is classed as "doing more"?

Don't expect a sensible reply.

You'd get more sense from a coma patient

Night all. Barring D4.

Laters Coxy!

Thing is that even if the fight takes place at WW, neither guy will come in on the limit. They will both probably only come in a few pounds above the 140 limit. Those extra few pounds will favour Pacquiao but I dont think it will be a massive advantage. Marquez can still come in even at 140 if he wants and Pacquaio will probably only be 143.

D4thincarnation wrote:Clottey/Margarito > Ortiz/Berto

Berto was and is rated higher than both of them

The Mighty Atom wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Clottey/Margarito > Ortiz/Berto

Berto was and is rated higher than both of them

You reading your bible again. Maybe when Berto finally stepped up he can prove it.

manos de piedra wrote:Thing is that even if the fight takes place at WW, neither guy will come in on the limit. They will both probably only come in a few pounds above the 140 limit. Those extra few pounds will favour Pacquiao but I dont think it will be a massive advantage. Marquez can still come in even at 140 if he wants and Pacquaio will probably only be 143.

Exactly if the fight is at welter Pacquiao will come in around 142, speed and timing will be key and Roach would not want Pacquiao too heavy.

Well Berto had beaten Collazo which is a more impressive win than anything on Clotteys record
Margarito had been destroyed by Mosley followed by an enforced absence

Seems pretty obvious that Berto is the highest ranked of the three

Well most people would accept that Pacquiao isnt going down to 135 again and most would agree that 140 would be legitimate?

Marquez can effectively come in as a LWW at 140 so if he cant carry his speed from 135 to 140 then its pointless even discussing a fight with Marquez as being valid.

On a side note I think Marquez has been looking slower and more sluggish in general which I put down to age. Mayweather made look bad but even dropping back to lightweight he still looked sluggish against Diaz and Katsidas so I dont think the weight can be solely blamed for the Mayweather fight. He was always going to be made look slow in that one not being able to fight his natural style.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Clottey/Margarito > Ortiz/Berto

Berto was and is rated higher than both of them

You reading your bible again. Maybe when Berto finally stepped up he can prove it.

Yeah Atom, if he really wanted the fight he would get banned for a year and then labour past a journeyman. Now that is stepping up and nothing short of such a herculean effort will earn him his day in the sunshine.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Well Berto had beaten Collazo which is a more impressive win than anything on Clotteys record
Margarito had been destroyed by Mosley followed by an enforced absence

Seems pretty obvious that Berto is the highest ranked of the three

Collazo, yeah that was an impressive performance, if Collazo can make Berto look that bad, Marg and Clottey will deal with him convincingly.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Clottey/Margarito > Ortiz/Berto

Berto was and is rated higher than both of them

You reading your bible again.

Can't speak for Ghosty, D4, but being an old git the Bible I have at home is a ' King James ' version.

I did see one the other day ' The D4thincarnation Revised Edition ' put I couldn't quite get on with the idea that :

" In the beginning there was Manny............ "

D4thincarnation wrote:

wow_junky wrote:The ship for this fight has long sailed

If Pacquiao doesn't fight a top top fighter after Mosely then he will officially be going down the Roy Jones Jr route of fighting hasbeens, albeit Pac's opponents will have a name attached.

Any of these at 147lb would be fine;

The winner of Khan-Bradley
The winner of Berto - Ortiz
Williams
Mayweather Jr

Anything else would be a disgrace

He could fight Bradley but not Khan, Ortiz/Berto need do to do more, behind Marquez in the queue, Williams, last thing he want is to face Pacquiao after what Martinez done to him (a come back fight for him) Mayweather still ducking, and now want another warm up fight before facing Pacquiao even if he does fight again.

What did Clottey do to earn the Pac fight? Nothing more than Berto or Ortiz have avhieved. His cheerleader apparently isn't an option which is fine don't see why Bradley isn't worth a shot. He would deserve it more than Mosley. Williams isn't an potion he is looking for an easy win after what happened against Martinez. FMJ isn't an option until the legal trouble is over and don't see the problem with him having a warm up fight. surely the biggest fight in decades deserves to have bothe men at their peaks.

As for Marquez he looks like he is fighting Judah before Pac which isn't an easy fight and if he loses which imo he does then the fight with Pac won't happen. The weight issue doesn't bother me JMM was well paid to fight FMJ and will be to fight Pac is he wants the money then needs to fight on their terms or he can go and see how much he will make fighting Soto, Rios or Guerrero

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Well Berto had beaten Collazo which is a more impressive win than anything on Clotteys record
Margarito had been destroyed by Mosley followed by an enforced absence

Seems pretty obvious that Berto is the highest ranked of the three

Collazo, yeah that was an impressive performance, if Collazo can make Berto look that bad, Marg and Clottey will deal with him convincingly.

In your opinion you should add, for me Berto beats either Clottey or Margarito and whether you care to admit it was in better form than both or do you care to disagree?

This fight makes sense (just about) at 140. If it’s being pushed for 147 then Manny is in danger of making his legacy look like a joke.

Manny should fight (in order):

Marquez @ 140

Berto/Bradley/Williams @ 147

Mayweather @ 147

Retire

I used to respect Manny’s take-on-all-comers approach utterly. There was a time where it stood in contrast to Floyd’s obsessive low risk/high reward, stipulation enforcing approach. Now Manny with his catch-weights and poor opponent choices is every bit as bad. I don’t feel confident that him and his team will do the right thing and offer marquez the fight at 140.

The point isn't whether Berto would beat Marg or Clottey, the point is that you said he needed to do more to earn his shot and people are asking at the time he faced them had either Clottey or Marg. A little less goalpost shifting and a little more honesty wouldn't go a miss.

Boxtthis wrote:This fight makes sense (just about) at 140. If it’s being pushed for 147 then Manny is in danger of making his legacy look like a joke.

Manny should fight (in order):

Marquez @ 140

Berto/Bradley/Williams @ 147

Mayweather @ 147

Retire

I used to respect Manny’s take-on-all-comers approach utterly. There was a time where it stood in contrast to Floyd’s obsessive low risk/high reward, stipulation enforcing approach. Now Manny with his catch-weights and poor opponent choices is every bit as bad. I don’t feel confident that him and his team will do the right thing and offer marquez the fight at 140.

When has Mayweather ever enforced stipulations?

Ignoring the fact that Pacquiao has absolutely no say in his own opponents (supposedly),what's happened to make Arum want to let Pacquiao fight Marquez? Did JMM lose a leg?

rowley wrote:The point isn't whether Berto would beat Marg or Clottey, the point is that you said he needed to do more to earn his shot and people are asking at the time he faced them had either Clottey or Marg. A little less goalpost shifting and a little more honesty wouldn't go a miss.

Clottey, the Grand Master, great double guard defence, teak tough, solid chin, quick jab. Just lost a SD to the 3 weight world champ Miguel Cotto, a fight he threw away, beat Zab, Corrales and should have beat Baldy, was winning on the scorecards when he was DQ in the 11th, and this was Baldy was not an old man. By the looks of things maybe Floyd needs to do more to have a shot at Pacquiao.

Margarito, the most avoided man at welter in the noughties, beat the like of Cotto, Cintron, Johnson, Clottey Martinez. Hardly out of the top 3 welters for a decade, and was avoided by the likes of Judah, Spinks and Mayweather.

What has Berto and Ortiz done?

No D4 what had they done at the time

Berto had beaten Collazo
Clottey had lost to Cotto
Margarito had an enforced years absence after losing to Mosley

If we're going to talk about full careers then you seem a bit hypocritical with your stance on Mayweather, looking at the above it's clear who was in the best form of the three.

Hardly an accurate reflection of Marg's form going in now is it. A more accurate summary would have been got discovered cheating against Mosley, got a beating before a deserved 12 month ban, laboured to a points win over a journeyman, fought Manny.

Are you seriously telling me that that is more impressive than Berto's current form should he get past Ortiz?

rowley wrote:Hardly an accurate reflection of Marg's form going in now is it. A more accurate summary would have been got discovered cheating against Mosley, got a beating before a deserved 12 month ban, laboured to a points win over a journeyman, fought Manny.

Are you seriously telling me that that is more impressive than Berto's current form should he get past Ortiz?

Who did Berto fight in his last fight, without checking

D4thincarnation wrote:

rowley wrote:The point isn't whether Berto would beat Marg or Clottey, the point is that you said he needed to do more to earn his shot and people are asking at the time he faced them had either Clottey or Marg. A little less goalpost shifting and a little more honesty wouldn't go a miss.

Clottey, the Grand Master, great double guard defence, teak tough, solid chin, quick jab. Just lost a SD to the 3 weight world champ Miguel Cotto, a fight he threw away, beat Zab, Corrales and should have beat Baldy, was winning on the scorecards when he was DQ in the 11th, and this was Baldy was not an old man. By the looks of things maybe Floyd needs to do more to have a shot at Pacquiao.

Margarito, the most avoided man at welter in the noughties, beat the like of Cotto, Cintron, Johnson, Clottey Martinez. Hardly out of the top 3 welters for a decade, and was avoided by the likes of Judah, Spinks and Mayweather.

What has Berto and Ortiz done?

By your own admission you don't rate Baldomir or Corrales, and by the time Clottey beat Zab, Judah was hardly 'peak'. It's already been established that in the two years immediately prior to facing Pacquiao, Margarito had achieved nothing of note, other than a 12-month ban.

Seems quite clear that neither was a particularly deserving opponent, especially compared to a young, unbeaten world champion like Berto. Face it, everyone's growing tired of this Pacquiao farce.

Think a run of victories over Collazo, Urango and Quintana out does those of Clottey or Margarito

Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree

Who had Margarito and Clottey beaten immediately prior to facing Pacquiao?

Hernandez if memory serves. Not really the point though is it. You said he needs to do more, the point we are making is he has done comfortably enough if not more than many who have been served up to Manny. My point remains, do you genuinely believe his form going in is significantly worse than Margs was because you will be in a minority of one I suspect in thinking that.

Can only guess by "do more" what you actually mean is sign with Top Rank.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Who had Margarito and Clottey beaten immediately prior to facing Pacquiao?

Form is temporary, Class is permanent.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Who had Margarito and Clottey beaten immediately prior to facing Pacquiao?

Form is temporary, Class is permanent.

Maybe he should fight Sugar Ray Leonard next then, what with class being permanent.

So the class of Mayweathers old opponents is permanent as well then?

That is merely a phrase that says nothing about the actual situation at the time, class is not permanent hence why beating aged past it opponents doesn't mean as much as beating them at their best.

Berto was in better form and losing to Cotto and Mosley doesn't entitle you to any sort of world title shot

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Who had Margarito and Clottey beaten immediately prior to facing Pacquiao?

Form is temporary, Class is permanent.

Which conveniently allows you to ignore the fact that neither Margarito or Clottey had achieved anything immediately prior to facing Pacquiao. They were both coming off poor form, but that handy little mantra you spout provides all the justification you'll ever need for Manny facing whatever half-dead, dehydrated, over-the-hill opponent his owner chooses. Hell, SRR possessed class, why not him? Shame Pacquiao's later career will be remembered for selective matchmaking so prominently.

I seriously wonder what D4 will do if Manny and Floyd ever DO fight ?

He can't trash Floyd during the run in, since Manny is then fighting bums, and he can't say that Floyd is fighting nobodies, because it's Manny coming out of the other corner.

What on Earth will the dear chap do ?

The Mighty Atom wrote:So the class of Mayweathers old opponents is permanent as well then?

That is merely a phrase that says nothing about the actual situation at the time, class is not permanent hence why beating aged past it opponents doesn't mean as much as beating them at their best.

Berto was in better form and losing to Cotto and Mosley doesn't entitle you to any sort of world title shot

Were not talking about age were talking about form, and fighter can have off days but there class is still there.