Springbok squad announced.

First topic message reminder :

Springbok squad for the English tour has been announced.

Forwards :
Coenie Oosthuizen,
Tendai Mtawarira,
Jannie du Plessis,
Werner Kruger,
Bismarck du Plessis,
Chiliboy Ralepelle,
Flip van der Merwe,
Eben Etzebeth,
Juandré Kruger,
Marcell Coetzee,
Keegan Daniel,
Willem Alberts,
Pierre Spies,
Ryan Kankowski,
Adriaan Strauss,
Jaques Potgieter

Backs :
Francois Hougaard,
Jano Vermaak,
Morné Steyn,
Pat Lambie,
Elton Jantjies,
Wynand Olivier,
Jean de Villiers,
JJ Engelbrecht,
Bryan Habana,
Bjorn Basson,
JP Pietersen,
Lwazi Mvovo,
Zane Kirchner,
Ruan Pienaar,
Frans Steyn


Those that should feel unlucky.
Gio Aplon
Juan de Jongh


Those that should feel lucky to be there.
Wynanad Olivier

Can't believe Wynand Olivier get selected ahead of Juan de Jongh.



Couple of good youngsters in there, Coenie Oosthuizen, Marcell Coetzee, JJ Engelbrecht.

Not happy about Potgieter and Jantjies, I don't believe they are good enough. If you consider the reasons why Meyer has not called upon de Jongh and Aplon, it can only be their size, then why is Jantjies there?

Okay, but common sense will tell you that if the 7 is involved at the breakdown off the set piece, how do you expect him to be there first for the next phase? Do you think the opposition are going to wait for him before stealing the ball for themselves?



A 7 is not involved in the breakdown as much as you think. As I said before, they know when to challenge for the ball, and when to just leave it and readjust themselves in the line.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Can't get to every breakdown first- 7 is also going to be making lots of tackles and carries and even McCaw isn't omnipresent

Exactly.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gKVrLewo1M

Brussow's interview.

I do agree.

McCaw is more of an all-round player.

He was more like Pocock when he started out (and had more pace) but now he plays with a lot of experience - he can read a game better than anyone is world rugby, he knows when its best to be at the bottom of a ruck slowing down opposition ball (which he is brilliant at too), when to turn the games momentum with a smashing tackle or hard run and when to wait and force a turnover.

However, despite that, he is still the man that is looked to when it comes to turning the ball over.

One of the reasons I rate Warburton so highly is that he has modelled his game on McCaw and is playing like a old McCaw now - he is learning how to read a game like McCaw and as a result he has the potential to master what McCaw can do and still have youth on his side to have the pace and physicality to do it for a full 80 minutes (and who know, potentially improve on what McCaw has done)


Several team have other player capable of winning ball in the 7s style (Gethin Jenkins and Bismark spring to mind) - and they are very useful to the squad as it allows you to have an extra breakdown expert (say when you 7 is on the otherside of the pitch) without compromising the balance of the backrow. With is why Gethin and Bismark are so valuable to their teams and have been the best 1 and 2 in the world at times because they have that breakdown dimension to their game.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Can't get to every breakdown first- 7 is also going to be making lots of tackles and carries and even McCaw isn't omnipresent

Yep, 7s do tackle - some more than others. McCaw and Warburton will tackle more than Pocock and Brussow but that is just their (or rather McCaws) style of play - they are still the breakdown kings for their teams, and straight penalty wins on the deck for their team will usually involve them (or in Wales' case...Gethin Jenkins)

Warburton was described as a 6.5 at first when he came onto the scene. I think he came to ravenhill for the U19s or U20s, when the tournament was there. It was the first time I saw him, and he was the captain at 8. At the blues, he then played 6 alongside Williams. Eventually, he was blooded as a 7 for Wales, and he was initially described as a 6.5. His all around play developed earlier in his career, and his new proficiency at the breakdown, is why he is the complete player.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Warburton was described as a 6.5 at first when he came onto the scene. I think he came to ravenhill for the U19s or U20s, when the tournament was there. It was the first time I saw him, and he was the captain at 8. At the blues, he then played 6 alongside Williams. Eventually, he was blooded as a 7 for Wales, and he was initially described as a 6.5. His all around play developed earlier in his career, and his new proficiency at the breakdown, is why he is the complete player.

Most of that was before Gatland told him to base his game on McCaw rather than Martyn (as he was clearly more suited to McCaws style) - that little word in his ear form Gatland has shaped his career to date.

He knows about playing at 6 and 8 (as McCaw did) - and learnt the fetcher 7 role from Martyn and the grappler 7 role from watching videos of McCaw endlessly.

That combined is one of the reasons he can read the game so well to play McCaw's style and be successful without 30+ caps and 50+ regional games.

Warburton has been described as injury prone recently - but his 6N injury was the first for ages (something like 13/15? straight test matches for Wales before that) - and now he has completely recovered from the injury (whose reaccurance and niggling effect cause him to miss the 6N matches). I can't wait to see what a fully fit Warburton can do vs Pocock - and what he will be able to do 5 years from now, especially as you can bet Tipuric is going to keep pressuring him to improve his game.

You guys are far too hung up on a 7 (SA 6) that is a fetcher, here are the stats for pilfering and turnovers in the Super 15 this season.

Most Pilfers
1. Liam Gill (Reds) 15
2. Coenrad Oosthuizen (Cheetahs) 10
2. Michael Hooper (Brumbies) 10
4. David Pocock (Force) 9
5. Luke Braid (Blues) 7
6. Matthew Hodgson (Force) 6
7. Andrew Hore (Highlanders) 5
7. Chris Alcock (Waratahs) 5
7. Cobus Grobbelaar (Lions) 5
10. Adam Thomson (Highlanders) 4
10. Derick Minnie (Lions) 4
10. Faifili Levave (Hurricanes) 4
10. Heinrich Brussow (Cheetahs) 4
10. James Haskell (Highlanders) 4
10. Karl Lowe (Hurricanes) 4
10. Nasi Manu (Highlanders) 4
10. Rene Ranger (Blues) 4
18. Beau Robinson (Reds) 3
18. Jacques Botes (Sharks) 3
18. Jason Rutledge (Highlanders) 3


Most Turnovers
1. Tiaan Liebenberg (Stormers) 32
2. Adam Thomson (Highlanders) 29
2. Bismarck du Plessis (Sharks) 29
2. Tom McCartney (Blues) 29
5. Corey Flynn (Crusaders) 28
6. Stephen Moore (Brumbies) 27
6. Zane Kirchner (Bulls) 27
8. Dean Mumm (Waratahs) 25
8. Keegan Daniel (Sharks) 25
8. Will Genia (Reds) 25
11. Adriaan Strauss (Cheetahs) 24
11. Callie Visagie (Lions) 24
11. Jaco Taute (Lions) 24
14. Ali Williams (Blues) 22
14. Dane Coles (Hurricanes) 22
14. Francois Hougaard (Bulls) 22
14. Hadleigh Parkes (Blues) 22
18. Luke Jones (Rebels) 21
19. Kieran Read (Crusaders) 20
19. Mahonri Schwalger (Chiefs) 20


Most teams have more than one tunrover specialist, SA have never bothered about a tunrover specialist in the past, PDV used Brussow because he was effective against the Luons and he has lived on reputation for another 3 years, now Meyer is backing a balanced player rather than a specialist.

Brussow was effective until the laws changed in 2010.

We never bothered with it before and I am very happy Brussow is not there.

against ENG SA can cope without a specialist but against AUS or NZ I'm not so sure.
Schalk will probably play openside by then but he's getting on a bit and can't throw his body around forever.

I hope Daniel is given a chance to prove himself.

Years back I recall us all slating him as a journeyman but a bit like chilliboy & Ndugane but they have worked hard and become far better individuals.. not so much of a liability.

Isn't Daniel a bit too lightweight for international rugby though? He'd get pushed around by bigger backrows.

Concerning Daniel, He's been playing No8 in the worlds toughest club league and not done too badly this season.

His leadership qualities are also a positive part of his selection.

Do you think if he was selected for the starting 15, then he would be captain?

No, doubt it, Meyer will go for a Bulls player or Jean de villiers.

I know he said in the press releases that he was mightily impressed with Jd Villiers, although I can't really see why, he has been good, but not almightily impressive.

Could De Villiers be shifted out to 13 to accomodate Frans Steyn? If so, he will have Tuilagi running at him all day!

I think that is what will happen, Tuilagi is welcome to run at JdV.

Here are the stats for Keegan daniel for the season.

13 matches
919 minutes played
19 offloads
667 meters ran
7 linebreaks
2 try assists
63 rucks and mauls
12 penalties conceded
19 turnovers made
19 tackles missed

Biltong - would you happen to have the stats for his competition at 8? Obviously that would be Spies, but any other options too?

I'll get it for you rory, but it takes quite a while, I have to collate the numbers.

JDV did ok yesterday.. his defence was superb but 13 is very different to 12 and I'm not sure he has the pace to compete with Tuilagi.

Not sure how fit Frans is.. haven't seen many of his games this season. Better equiped than JDV though and given JP Pietersen cannot defend 13 and gets caught out all the time I can't see him feature there. Got to be Frans in my mind with JDV at 12.

Bismaarck gives too many penalties to be made captain... Spies did well in the lineout yesterday but was otherwise mainly absent (again). JDV lead from the front, hit the line well etc.... much more experienced than Spies so I think he's a better bet.

Hougaard, Morne, Habana, JDV, Frans, JP Pietersen, Lambie.

Meyer chose 3 left wings and 1 right wing. The problem is JP hasn't played right wing all season whilst all your options are on Habana's side (who has played very well this year with limited opportunities)... should have gone with Ndugane (that old cheasnut again!!!) rather than Basson.

Not quite sure what those stats are Biltong....what are pilfers and what are classed as turnovers?

Will Genia & Ali Williams in top 20 turnovers doesn't seem correct.

Stats for Pierre spies

games played 13
minutes played 1046
127 tackles
4 offloads
584 meters ran
2 line breaks
102 rucks and mauls
8 penalties conceded
12 turn overs
22 mised tackles

Thanks biltong! Main stat that sticks out for me is 19 offloads as opposed to just 4. You can tell who plays a more expansive attacking game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not quite sure what those stats are Biltong....what are pilfers and what are classed as turnovers?

Will Genia & Ali Williams in top 20 turnovers doesn't seem correct.

These stats come from an australian website, it shows only turn overs, must include pilfers.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Thanks biltong! Main stat that sticks out for me is 19 offloads as opposed to just 4. You can tell who plays a more expansive attacking game.

Yes, you can ust compare the Bulls game plan with the sharks, the sharks have been more adventurous hence you see more offloads, where as the bulls prefer to hit contact and create a ruck, that cuases them to have slower ball and are much more predictable in attack as well.

sort of suggest Daniel has had a better season.... offloaded more, gained more yards, made more turnovers and played 120 mins less.

Spies is a good lineout option and the man with the shirt so even so Daniel won't test ahead of Spies... but I think Daniel may go in as openside.

Tackling is a little poor for both though. 20 missed tackles 2/3 through the season is bad. I remember one season Neil Back missed only 2 tackles for the entire season for both ENG & Leicester during his heyday.

In terms of Spies tackling, his 22 missed tackles over 149 attempts means he misses one every seven... or near 2 a game. Thats not nearly good enough for test rugby

So what is the difference between a pilfer & turnover??

Pilfer is being on your feet at the ruck and getting the ball to play on,, turnover includes a maul being stopped and ball turned over to the opposition etc.

Ah ok, never heard pilfer used before.

Stats look well off mark for me. As normal with any stat they need to be took into context.

of course.

http://www.rugby365.com/all_news/sa/news/2891925.htm Biltong i know you didnt rate FDP nearly as much as other ppl in the last years of his career but even you cant deny the man has class. He dropped himself from selection and the captaincy when he felt he wasnt 100%

I read about that, honourable from him.

Jean de Villiers have been announced as captain.

Not surprising although will that mean he and Frans Steyn will be the centre partnership?

I would expect so yes, big question would be who will be 12 and who will be 13?

It has to be Frans Steyn at 12, he is the better player and plays better at 12 although you might worry about De Villiers defence against Tuilagi so maybe the other way round? We shall see ...

I fully agree with you, I am not sure Heyneke will agree with us.

Really pleased for Jean.... great servant for both club & country... even Meyer knew that an off form Spies is not the leadership SA need right now.

There is no reason why Jean & Frans can't alternate between defence & attack.

I'd put Frans at 12 on attack as second or alternate receiver and then put in Jean at 12 in defence.
Frans pace and bulk will be needed to counter Tuilagi whilst Jean has the streetwise approach to take care of the big ENG pack running down his line.

Tactics like that happen all the time.