Ireland Team vs Barbarians

First topic message reminder :

Ireland XV (Team & Replacements v Barbarians, Kingsholm, Gloucester, Tuesday May 29th, 19:35):

15. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
14. Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)*
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
12. Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)
11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
10. Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians /Connacht)*
2. Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
3. Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)*
4. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6. John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht)
7. Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
8. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Replacements:
16. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
17. Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
18. Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19. James Coughlan (Dolphin/Munster)*
20. Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
21. Nevin Spence (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
22. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

The match won't be televised, which is a real shame.
It's also worth noting that no Leinster players were considered for this game due to having played in the RaboDirect PRO12 final on Sunday.

John Afoa made some comments recently that our young players aren't doing proper weights and conditioning until they reach the academies which is far too late.

He says the in NZ the coaches work with the schools so players are doing serious training and by the time they reach academy level they are physically and technically ready to play top class rugby.

Whereas he said here there is a disconnect between the schools and pro system and that lads were turning up to the Ulster academy having never lifted a weight.

No wonder our forwards in particular can't compete.

I know my local club do weights session for U-17 once a week. Munster youths do it once a week I think too and are given programmes. I'm not incredibly pro weights anyway. No way should a kid U-18 be lifting in excess of 100kg (if he is over 6 ft and a prop then maybe) but backrows/centres should only be lifting 50-90. More reps is important than a one rep max for developing conditioning. Scrummaging technque in Ireland is a bit outdated, that's a big problem.

Not sure what the latest science is but I think only high impacted plyometrics are not to be done by adolescents because of potential growth plate damage.

Resistance training is fine. Most strength gains are neurological anyways so its important that kids are doing specific movement based resistance work and then when they are old enough they can lift huge weights.

The schools system is a big problem.

Where do you get the 100kg figure Thomond? Surely that depends on the individual.

1-6 reps for strength, 8-12 for building muscle and 15 + for endurance is the rule of thumb more or less I think.

I'd also suggest that 3 times per body part per week would be a minimum. Once a week is nowhere near sufficient and if Munster youths are only doing that then no wonder we aren't up to it physically.

It depends on the individual a bit but I have seen a lot of guys get injured trying to act mad by lifting weights they can't handle or by doing too many reps. 100kg is usually the figure but it drops/escalates. That's just from personal experience, if you have correct technique in scrummaging/tackling/rucking ,power/strength isn't as big an issue. I always put an emphasis on speed, if you can get to the ruck quick you will keep the ball 9/10 times. Same with tackling, chop him down quickly.


Munster Youths is a bit of speculation, they have their own programmes they have to do but during the school time I think the U-17s train twice a week, one of those is a gym session. I wouldn't know a lot about the youth setup in Munster to be honest.

Fair enough Thomond but I'd say the injuries are down to incorrect use of the weights, incorrect form etc. rather than the weight itself.

Technique is the most important I agree but there comes a point were if you don't have the sufficient strength, size and power you won't be able to compete no matter how good your technique is.

I honestly think we are miles off the pace in this country, even behind the other home nations.

It's a bit of both Rodders, some are lifting too much, others doing too many reps, just male bravado and all that really (I once told the trainer to put on more weights, he said there are no more) Yep you're right, that point comes around U-20s onwards. You don't even have to do a lot of weight lifting but just some, even other exercises help develop biceps/Triceps/Lats/Deltoids.

My dad used make me saw and chop wood for our fire. You spend over an hour and half doign that it's very good work. Tiring as feic but incredibly good for developing strength.

Thomond wrote:I know my local club do weights session for U-17 once a week. Munster youths do it once a week I think too and are given programmes. I'm not incredibly pro weights anyway. No way should a kid U-18 be lifting in excess of 100kg (if he is over 6 ft and a prop then maybe) but backrows/centres should only be lifting 50-90. More reps is important than a one rep max for developing conditioning. Scrummaging technque in Ireland is a bit outdated, that's a big problem.

Don't agree with this at all. Why should the weight be kept under 100kg? The whole myth surrounding lifting heavy is ridiculous. Stunts your growth, bad for your joints etc. You do realise olympic weightlifters train with about 100kg from about age 14? Conditioning should be kept outside of the weights room. You do weights training to get strong and develop explosive power, not to get fit.

Rory, I'm going from my own experiences. Most Olympic Weightlifters are massive feicers anyway, they can handle it. A guy who is 70kg and a backrower probably won't. Weights can help with conditioning, turns fat into muscle etc. I agree that conditioning is outside of the weights but in the gym.

They are massive because they started training from about 8 years old. Plus, not all are massive as there are weight classes similar to boxing. Olympic Weightlifting would be my second favourite sport, and I really think all sports could take a lot from their training. It is no secret that olympic lifters are the most explosive athletes in the world. The other day I saw a video of an 120kg lifter doing a double back flip!

The weightclasses start at about 56kg btw, meaning no competitor can be above that weight. I watched the euros about a month or so ago, and the 56kg guys (smaller than Paul Marshall) were clean and jerking about 120kg or more.

They are indeed impressive specimens, I don't want a bunch of gym monkeys playign for Ireland. In my mind we don't point enough emphasis on speed/fitness throughout the team. You need your pack to hunt as 8, hitting rucks making tackles and just being good around the park. Would you agree that most guys, shouldn't be lifting (a lot) more than their own weight at underage level like?

Rava wrote:There looked to be a fairly decent crowd there.

11,500 was the official attendance - pretty good for a game in which the locals only had peripheral interest (Tindall playing for Baa-baas

Thomond wrote:They are indeed impressive specimens, I don't want a bunch of gym monkeys playign for Ireland. In my mind we don't point enough emphasis on speed/fitness throughout the team. You need your pack to hunt as 8, hitting rucks making tackles and just being good around the park. Would you agree that most guys, shouldn't be lifting (a lot) more than their own weight at underage level like?

I don't see why not. Obviously there needs to be a focus on speed/fitness also, but one way of increasing your speed is to increase your strength. If they can lift heavier than their own bodyweight, without their weight training getting in the way of their other aspects of training, then they should. I am mostly talking about the off season here, as in season you would have to cut your weight training down a fair bit.

Again, going back to the olympic lifters, they are known to be very fast sprinters (second to actual sprinters, who often use olympic weightlifting to supplement their own training). I doubt they would have the conditioning level to play rugby, but they have everything else required physically/mentally.

BTW when I think of gym monkeys, I think of bodybuilders trying to gain size for their looks. People training for sport should be lifting to get explosive power and strength IMO. As well as doing speed and agility training. Gym monkeys, would be useless for rugby.

Fair enough, you would be more experienced in this area then me, I just hate dealing with fellas injuring themselves in the gym. If your having troublw with the weight don't lift so feicing much!

Yeah, the main problem is people lifting completely wrong, which leads to injuries. In fact most people end up "cheating" to lift the heavier weights, which is REALLY asking for injury. Proper form should be properly coached, and maintained throughout the session.

As I was saying earlier one of the coaches at my club runs a weekly gym session, problem is guys are doing it themselves and feicing up. I would prefer to see a guy do 8-10 reps at say 60 KG then 5 at 70. People seem to go for weight rather than reps.

Sorry Thomond but I'm with Rory on this one.

I see where you are coming from but I think you are confusing bodybuilding (which is a different type of training) and mucking around in a gym (which is dangerous and stupid), with structured and specific strength and conditioning training which is essential not only to compete and succeed in any sport but also to avoid injury.

The weight that a person should lift is proportional to the ability of the person and what they want to achieve.

Rory, does indeed have a very vaild point Rodders, I'm not even arguing against him really. I'm just stating my concerns from a coaching perspective and how I place other things first.

Thomond wrote:As I was saying earlier one of the coaches at my club runs a weekly gym session, problem is guys are doing it themselves and feicing up. I would prefer to see a guy do 8-10 reps at say 60 KG then 5 at 70. People seem to go for weight rather than reps.

8-10 reps does more damage to the muscle fibre and is more specific to building muscle. 5 reps with a heavier weight would be better for strength work so it depends what you are trying to achieve.

Building muscle is a part of strength though. Any way we're going round in circles here.


There are a lot of other ways to develop strength/power without lifting weights or in a gym. Those are the kind of things I was offered and I really like

putting on weight gives you power- you dont have to lift weights- you can just get fat and eat loads of cakes. i remember all them fatty rugby players lol..

Thomond I genuinely believe the earlier you get athletes doing strength work the better. Teach them good habits early, good technique, how to warm up, build up weight gradually etc. put them on structured individually tailored plans.

Most people injure themselves because they don't know what they are doing.

Strength work yeah but people think Strength is all about lifting weights when it's not.

Developing raw strength and explosive power with lower reps is a lot more beneficial than higher reps. I have been told that higher reps is better as you don't make one tackle in a game, but multiple tackles. Yeah, but you don't make multiple tackles in succession. You make one tackle, and then usually you are at the bottom of a ruck getting your breath back. You want to have maximum power/strength in these situations, and release it in short bursts. Lower rep training with heavier weights can help develop this.

Thomond wrote:Building muscle is a part of strength though. Any way we're going round in circles here.


There are a lot of other ways to develop strength/power without lifting weights or in a gym. Those are the kind of things I was offered and I really like

No building muscle is just one aspect of building strength, the smaller aspect. Most strength gains are down to muscle fibre recruitment and your brain and central nervous system learning how to do a movement effectively. Thats why beginners improve so quickly.

Most strength athletes train with high weight and low reps.... maximal lifts. You'll find 56kg olympic lifters who can lift more than the biggest body builder you will find.

are you two gym monkies or are you skinny pot heads having an argument

Thomond wrote:Strength work yeah but people think Strength is all about lifting weights when it's not.

Strength work is about lifting weights. Whether the weight is bodyweight, a dumbell, a tackle bag or another player is irrelevent... they are still weights.

How else can you train strength?

olympic weightlifting as a sport jaysus not for me il stick to rugby, soccer, gaa, golf, tennis even cricket thanks

in all seriousness lets not beat ourselves up too much here. A lot of body shape i am convinced is genertic. The Kiwis in particular the polynesians are far more muscular than the saffers but give up a stone in raw bulk. Gross generalization but you know what i mean

i can only speak from a leinster perspective but the schools system is generating quality rugby players by the shedload. They may not be massive when they break through but they are doing serious work once they get a ft leinster contract

There are a lot of good things in Irish rugby. A back up tight head and a change of game plan for the national team and we will be in a good place again

mystiroakey wrote:are you two gym monkies or are you skinny pot heads having an argument

Can't speak for the others but I'm a skinny pot head .

Thomond wrote:Strength work yeah but people think Strength is all about lifting weights when it's not.

Well really that is exactly what strength is Thomond. To build strength, you lift heavy things. Whether it is weights, or working in a physically demanding job, or whatever. Lifting heavy things, is exhibiting your strength. Limit strength is as the name suggests, lifting things that are very heavy. How else do you train strength other than lifting heavy things to build it?

I think I best shut my mouth as I'm being schooled. I will leave by saying that weight training should be top of the list of people's priorities when it comes to rugby. There are far more important aspects to the game than this. Developing solid basics is a lot more important. The Irish lads are probably close to being as strong as everyone (excluding the Welsh backs) but they fail at times due to their technique.


Rodders, I developed strength from doing other jobs, chopping, sawing rowing and things like that. We're not going to agree so I say we just drop it.

Bodyweight strength is one way, that I should have included there. Gymnasts tend to be very strong, due to putting themselves in isometric holds etc with their entire bodyweight. They are still exhibiting strength lifting weight (their bodies) in these situations though.

rodders wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:are you two gym monkies or are you skinny pot heads having an argument

Can't speak for the others but I'm a skinny pot head .

nice

As I said though, I imagine gym monkeys as people who live in the gym doing curls to get the bicepz. I am certainly not one of those.

what you benching rodders

have a vision of james nesbett in a onesy poncing around with a few kettle bells in the gym. ha

james nesbitt- lols, rodders is more like howard marks me thinks

was at a stag do in the dam for the ireland wales 6 nations game quite herbalised and very drunk. my face was in screensaver mode for the whole game. i thought kidneys head was a free range egg.

motto kids rugby and drugs both have a time and a place. just not at the same time.

Thomond wrote:I think I best shut my mouth as I'm being schooled. I will leave by saying that weight training should be top of the list of people's priorities when it comes to rugby. There are far more important aspects to the game than this. Developing solid basics is a lot more important. The Irish lads are probably close to being as strong as everyone (excluding the Welsh backs) but they fail at times due to their technique.


Rodders, I developed strength from doing other jobs, chopping, sawing rowing and things like that. We're not going to agree so I say we just drop it.

Thomond I don't think we are in disagreement just you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Firstly strength training should be done in conjuction with the other technical aspects of training not at the expense of it. It is certainly not the most important aspect but it is important non the less and an area where Irish players are falling behind.

I would class sawing, rowing etc. as weight training too.

dublin_dave wrote:what you benching rodders

have a vision of james nesbett in a onesy poncing around with a few kettle bells in the gym. ha

Dave the only Bench I use is the one I sit on mate

"Thomond I don't think we are in disagreement just you are misunderstanding what I am saying."

That sounds like one of Declans team talks then

Ruby ya bollix!

You calling me stupid Rodders, that's fighting talk Sure just leave it as it is sure we enjoyed a decent dicussion on youth rugby and we'll drop it there.

He's making a Rodders for his own back Thomond

No Thomond buddy not stupid , things just get lost in translation in here you know, crossed wires I'm sure you're a great coach...........

...... just too soft on the wee feicers......

haha. thomond is handy with a saw aswell.

rodders its been nice knowing you on here mate you have a been a great poster. il be sure to show my face at the funeral

rodders wrote:No Declan buddy not stupid , things just get lost in translation in here you know, crossed wires I'm sure you're a great coach...........

...... just too soft on the wee feicers..especially thos lady boy players....

Cork Champions Rodders, (three fellas in the Munster squad) and the foundations are built on mobility, speed and then strength, if you can get there first you don't need to be strong

I was only taking the pish from the last bit, though you would have guessed that from the emoticon

Thomond,

Do you mind me asking what age level you coach and do you coach forwards/backs/attack/defence/scrum or what?

Love talking in detail about parts of the game, it is much more interesting then banging your head against the brick wall that is Sin É about selection issues