Wales look at Pretorious, Paterson and Dirksen for future call-ups

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/05/14/wales-target-southern-hemisphere-blues-duo-and-ospreys-star-hanno-dirksen-for-future-selection-91466-30967932/

ROB HOWLEY has revealed three foreign-born regional stars are on Wales' selection radar.

Howley admitted he has checked up on the eligibility of Ospreys winger Hanno Dirksen and Blues forwards Andries Pretorius and Michael Paterson ahead of naming the summer training squad for the Test series in Australia.

Those checks revealed South Africans Dirksen and Pretorius and New Zealander Paterson weren’t available for the tour of Australia as they still have time to serve before qualifying for Wales on the three-year residency rule.

But back rower Pretorius, who has just returned from a six-month knee injury lay-off, could be big candidate for Wales honours next season as he becomes eligible later this summer.

Blues Player of the Year Paterson has another 12 months to run before qualifying in the summer of 2013, while Dirksen won’t be eligible until January 2014.

“We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen,” he said.

“They are not qualified for this tour.”


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Say what you like about eligibility rules, but these 3 would certainly add depth to the welsh squad.

Pretorious is likely to play 8 next season and be eligible for Wales (and has previously stated he wants to play for Wales) - he could prove to be the long term backup to Faletau at 6.

Paterson would provide further depth to the backrow, and could really challenge Lydiate if he can take his regional performances to the international level.

Dirksen is not really a surprise - Wales are a bit short on wings after S.Williams retirement and nobody is really pushing North or even the newby Cuthbert for a place. Pity we will have to wait until 2014 to see if Dirksen can step up to international rugby.

SA and NZ haven't nominated their U20 sides as their 2nd teams. The Emerging Boks and Junior AB's have gone over a year without a game. I think(?) that they must go two or three years without a game before the Union is ordered to designate another 2nd team. Either that or they can just arrange another A-team fixture.

the last time the emerging springboks played was during the lions tour in 09 (I think at least).... 3 years ago.. I was at Newlands that day... what a washout. Before that they were in the Nations Cup but the Southern Kings took their place.

Even then it was hardly a Saxons type "A" side.

Surprised at that. They are giving the opposition an opportunity to take their age grade players, under the current rules they should change their nomination.

I've got some interesting news. Dirksen has played for USA! But it was an uncapped game against Munster . Can't wait for the articles on this matter if he chooses to play for Wales once eligible.

It certainly is cheeky denying players who played for their U20 side to represent their side purely because they can't afford an 'A' senior side and yet are looking to choose a player who played for the senior side of another country... but given the game was a non cap match they technically still are free to play for a number of countries.

Yeah, it's that wretched WRU again isn't it. Destroying rugby union from their tower perched upon Mount Doom!

Has Dirksen expressed an interest in playing for any country?

Also, interesting point - would Dirksen still be eligable to play for the USA now that he's no longer living there - doesn't residency only apply when you're living in a country?

I wouldn't go that far but they're certainly not going to make any mates at the IRB.

fa0019 wrote:It certainly is cheeky denying players who played for their U20 side to represent their side purely because they can't afford an 'A' senior side and yet are looking to choose a player who played for the senior side of another country... but given the game was a non cap match they technically still are free to play for a number of countries.

Not sure how you can say the WRU have denied anyone anything - it's the IRB rules who state what people can and can't do

fa0019 wrote:I wouldn't go that far but they're certainly not going to make any mates at the IRB.

Why?

If Hanno's parents became US citizens then so would Hanno have.

You are right that technically they did no wrong.

But I doubt the SRU will be best buddies with them after the latest saga and them getting round loopholes themselves so that they can play other foreign players. Its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

They are not going to get applauded for their moral stance on Shingler esp. when Dirksen played a higher level of international rugby for another country yet somehow can still represent Wales in a few years.

In the end for me the SRU knew the rules and Shingler knew the rules so I'm not surprised the case was thrown out... the debate I guess is countries selecting their U20 side as their A side.

What loopholes did the WRU go through?

And surely if the WRU hadn't have informed anyone and Shingler was played in the 6N's then both unions would have been fined (Scotland a lot more severly) and the result maybe made null and void for fielding an illeligable player then I'm sure the SRU would have been more annoyed at the WRU for failing to inform them

fa0019 wrote:In the end for me the SRU knew the rules and Shingler knew the rules so I'm not surprised the case was thrown out... the debate I guess is countries selecting their U20 side as their A side.

Yup the debate is def about whether countries should in the future be able to use their U20s sides as A teams - though at the minute countries can, mainly to protect Tier 2/3 sides I believe.

Morgannwg wrote:If Hanno's parents became US citizens then so would Hanno have.

That's got nothing to do with it. The criteria for eligibility is very clear.

1) Born in a country
2) One of your parents were born in a country
3) One of you grandparents were born in an country
4) You've had your permanent address in a country for 36 consecutive months immediately prior to being capped.

Nothing else matters. Therefore Dirksen is not qualified for the US.

Dirksen lived in the USA for more than three years so he is qualified to play for them. He already represented them at youth level three years in a row.

maestegmafia wrote:Dirksen lived in the USA for more than three years so he is qualified to play for them. He already represented them at youth level three years in a row.

he was only qualified on residency - as soon as you leave the country you are no longer qualified on residency - see Thunor's post

This is all pretty pointless as Wales have not stated that they want to cap any of these players.

When asked whether the players were considered for the tour Howley answered, “We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen. They are not qualified for this tour.”

No where in the press have Wales said that they want to play these players.

We have plenty of top internationals and depth in backrow and on the wing.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dirksen lived in the USA for more than three years so he is qualified to play for them. He already represented them at youth level three years in a row.

he was only qualified on residency - as soon as you leave the country you are no longer qualified on residency - see Thunor's post

Unless you gain a cap that ties you to that country. Although...do USA have an A side? If not.....

maestegmafia wrote:This is all pretty pointless as Wales have not stated that they want to cap any of these players.

When asked whether the players were considered for the tour Howley answered, “We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen. They are not qualified for this tour.”

No where in the press have Wales said that they want to play these players.

We have plenty of top internationals and depth in backrow and on the wing.

The fact that they're checking on the eligibility of these players shows that they are interested. Whether they play them when they are eligible is another matter. As long as they are properly qualified if/when they do pick them then there's no issue.

3 years is a long time in test rugby, players form goes up & down. It would be pretty naive of any coach to say anything bar a player who qualifies in x number of years may be of interest and we'll look at them when the time comes.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:If Hanno's parents became US citizens then so would Hanno have.

That's got nothing to do with it. The criteria for eligibility is very clear.

1) Born in a country
2) One of your parents were born in a country
3) One of you grandparents were born in an country
4) You've had your permanent address in a country for 36 consecutive months immediately prior to being capped.

Nothing else matters. Therefore Dirksen is not qualified for the US.

Is this the criteria for US residency or playing for the 'adopted country' ? If its for residency then it differs from a country neighbouring the states to the north.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dirksen lived in the USA for more than three years so he is qualified to play for them. He already represented them at youth level three years in a row.

he was only qualified on residency - as soon as you leave the country you are no longer qualified on residency - see Thunor's post

Unless you gain a cap that ties you to that country. Although...do USA have an A side? If not.....

But we know he hasn't had a cap ???

Morgannwg wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:If Hanno's parents became US citizens then so would Hanno have.

That's got nothing to do with it. The criteria for eligibility is very clear.

1) Born in a country
2) One of your parents were born in a country
3) One of you grandparents were born in an country
4) You've had your permanent address in a country for 36 consecutive months immediately prior to being capped.

Nothing else matters. Therefore Dirksen is not qualified for the US.

Is this the criteria for US residency or playing for the 'adopted country' ? If its for residency then it differs from a country neighbouring the states to the north.

No my understanding is that it's the IRB's residency rules

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:This is all pretty pointless as Wales have not stated that they want to cap any of these players.

When asked whether the players were considered for the tour Howley answered, “We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen. They are not qualified for this tour.”

No where in the press have Wales said that they want to play these players.

We have plenty of top internationals and depth in backrow and on the wing.

The fact that they're checking on the eligibility of these players shows that they are interested. Whether they play them when they are eligible is another matter. As long as they are properly qualified if/when they do pick them then there's no issue.

No it doesnt Cyril

It means that the Western Mail were looking for a story to print....!

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:This is all pretty pointless as Wales have not stated that they want to cap any of these players.

When asked whether the players were considered for the tour Howley answered, “We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen. They are not qualified for this tour.”

No where in the press have Wales said that they want to play these players.

We have plenty of top internationals and depth in backrow and on the wing.

The fact that they're checking on the eligibility of these players shows that they are interested. Whether they play them when they are eligible is another matter. As long as they are properly qualified if/when they do pick them then there's no issue.

No it doesnt Cyril

It means that the Western Mail were looking for a story to print....!

Is that right Mr Evan Jones Cymru? It seems pretty clear in the article. Unless your national paper is actually being libellous.

Sugar, all Howley did was answer a question. I'd doubt they are considering anything other than Australia at this moment in time. Rob himself probably hasn't checked, all the newspapers did it for him.

biltongbek wrote:The reality is many South Africans have parentage or grand parentage that stems from the UK. Does that make it right?

Our school rugby system is one of the best in the world, our craven week and school festivals are a formidable training ground for any rugby player.

In some countries kids start plaing rugby in their teens, they don't have the back ground and opportunities our kids have here, so when they move on to play professional rugby in other countries, and then get called upfor national duty in the new "rugby adopted" country it makes it OK becuase of bloodlines or residency. Sorry don't like it.

No matter which way you cut it, they are mercenaries and will stick yu in the eyeball for 30 silver coins.

90% of rugby players leaving our shores do it for money, and if they have a carrot haning over them to possibly play for another country they take it, simply becuase they don't beleive they will get the same results here.

I agree with you, Biltongbek, that they're mercenaries. I think though that its perfectly acceptable for players to play with the country of their grandparents birth. Thats different than players qualifing under residency. Isaac Boss and Tom Court are part Irish. Big difference between them and Falateu, Fluety, Strauss etc.

profitius, FA was telling us about his son that was born in SA, if he lives in SA his whole life and has a son and his son lives in SA his whol life, learns rugby in our system, you still believe he should be able to represent the home nation of FA?

Yeah, because someone has closer ties to the country their grandma was born in and should play for that country within 1 year of moving there for the 1st time, compared with someone who was raised in a country from the age of 7. If you truly think that then this whole discussion/argument is pointless because some people are crazy (it's either me or you and at this point I've no idea).

profitius wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The reality is many South Africans have parentage or grand parentage that stems from the UK. Does that make it right?

Our school rugby system is one of the best in the world, our craven week and school festivals are a formidable training ground for any rugby player.

In some countries kids start plaing rugby in their teens, they don't have the back ground and opportunities our kids have here, so when they move on to play professional rugby in other countries, and then get called upfor national duty in the new "rugby adopted" country it makes it OK becuase of bloodlines or residency. Sorry don't like it.

No matter which way you cut it, they are mercenaries and will stick yu in the eyeball for 30 silver coins.

90% of rugby players leaving our shores do it for money, and if they have a carrot haning over them to possibly play for another country they take it, simply becuase they don't beleive they will get the same results here.

I agree with you, Biltongbek, that they're mercenaries. I think though that its perfectly acceptable for players to play with the country of their grandparents birth. Thats different than players qualifing under residency. Isaac Boss and Tom Court are part Irish. Big difference between them and Falateu, Fluety, Strauss etc.

Faletau has lived pretty much his entire life in Wales.

Exactly Wales 606, i don't think anyone in their right mind would deny that Faletau is playing for the right country.
I seem to remember reading that he did have some conflict over whether to turn out for Wales or Tonga, he even discussed it with his family and came to the conclusion that his loyalties lay with Wales. Can't really say fairer than that. Blydi good player as well!

Faletau was 7 when his father Kuli moved to Wales to play for my home town of Ebbwand despite some early set backs has come up through the system so I would hardly call him a mercenary who moved here for the money.

Come on Bedford you're naive if you don't think that your average seven year old has a firm grasp of geo-political financial migration! You're fooling yourself man!!!!

Its certainly difficult to think about. If my boy is good enough to play first class rugby then I'm sure his first choice will be the boks. Whatever I say will mean little, I'm sure he will be a big Scotland supporter also but when Scotland play the boks I expect only one emotion to pour out of him... 'death to the scots'

Does that mean however that he has no right to play for the land of his fathers??? Well he's a British citizen from birth, he'll visit regularly and I hope to instill in him British values etc, God save the Queen et al (I'm a Scot but a monarchist as many anglo-scots are). He certainly will be a child of two worlds however... he will always know he's slightly different from his other maatjies.

It depends on how you view talent... some players as gifted by God, players like Jerry Guscott.... some players achieve great things by sheer hard work and determination... Schalk Burger, Jonny Wilkinson, Serge Betsen etc.

If the player goes through an academy then you could argue the province/country has put money into you to develop your game and its unfair that someone else pinches their investment.

However... esp. in SA academies only pay out basic bursaries... Many academy players at WP, Natal etc surprisingly pay their own way and only the very best get full funding.
Its a business, WP invest in youth to hope with the hope that some will become top players and become a asset for the company.

But just like a business, if a club decides a player is surplus to requirements then that doesn't mean another club/country can't pick up the player and try and utilise their skills/talent.

For me I think its a mix of both talent born/talent generated.

In terms of SA of all the players that have gone on to play for Tier 1 nations

Luscombe, Catt, Barritt, Stevens, Botha, Fioure, De Villiers, Vickerman, Abbott, Rathbone

I think only Catt, Vickerman and Rathbone would have become boks and all 3 moved before they played first class senior rugby. Perhaps Brad Barritt as well at a push... 4 years ago Barritt was a real up & coming player and was pushing for squad selection.... I for one was very surprised that he decided to play for ENG but I guess he saw Frans Steyn coming up and realised he'd never be first choice... unlucky for him that Steyn soon moved on to Paris and locked himself out of the boks for much of his European adventure.

Carpe Diem wrote:Come on Bedford you're naive if you don't think that your average seven year old has a firm grasp of geo-political financial migration! You're fooling yourself man!!!!

You can imaging the conversation

Toby - Dad your never going to really make it on the World stage are you?
Kuli - No sod I guess not. What made you ask?
Toby - Well I was thining about us all mving to Wales because they pay their players there, and I am going to be good enough.
Kuli - Fair enough son, lets pack our backs and head off to Ebbw Vale, I heard its a lovely place to live anyway.

Yeah you can't label Faletau in the same category.. if so half the Polynesian all blacks would be forced to play for Samoa, Tonga etc as many of them i.e. Kaino moved over as small children due to decisions their parents made for various reasons.

Percy Montegomery would never have been a bok... He's Namibian and only moved to SA when he went to boarding school.

Scarlet, word for word mate!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Come on Bedford you're naive if you don't think that your average seven year old has a firm grasp of geo-political financial migration! You're fooling yourself man!!!!

You can imaging the conversation

Toby - Dad your never going to really make it on the World stage are you?
Kuli - No sod I guess not. What made you ask?
Toby - Well I was thining about us all mving to Wales because they pay their players there, and I am going to be good enough.
Kuli - Fair enough son, lets pack our backs and head off to Ebbw Vale, I heard its a lovely place to live anyway.

Oi I'll have you all know Ebbw Vale IS a lovely place to live you just ask everyone like me and Kingsley who now lives away from there

Morgannwg wrote:Sugar, all Howley did was answer a question. I'd doubt they are considering anything other than Australia at this moment in time. Rob himself probably hasn't checked, all the newspapers did it for him.

Look, it's not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with them checking the qualification progress of these players. Unless the paper actually made up the quote then the check for eligibility has been made by Howley and the Welsh camp.

I honestly don't understand what the big issue is. If/when these players pull on a Welsh shirt then good luck to them.

sugarNspikes wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Sugar, all Howley did was answer a question. I'd doubt they are considering anything other than Australia at this moment in time. Rob himself probably hasn't checked, all the newspapers did it for him.

Look, it's not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with them checking the qualification progress of these players. Unless the paper actually made up the quote then the check for eligibility has been made by Howley and the Welsh camp.

I honestly don't understand what the big issue is. If/when these players pull on a Welsh shirt then good luck to them.

I think it's just the Western Fail - He answers a simple question then the Western Fail go away and check eligability and write/make up a whole story around Howley's answer - and FYI it wouldn't be the 1st time the WF have written libellous things, I work for the Welsh Government and they make up stories (usually contradiciting stories printed a few months before) which are shockingly untrue all the time.

Hal Luscombe! Did you have to remind us?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Sugar, all Howley did was answer a question. I'd doubt they are considering anything other than Australia at this moment in time. Rob himself probably hasn't checked, all the newspapers did it for him.

Look, it's not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with them checking the qualification progress of these players. Unless the paper actually made up the quote then the check for eligibility has been made by Howley and the Welsh camp.

I honestly don't understand what the big issue is. If/when these players pull on a Welsh shirt then good luck to them.

I think it's just the Western Fail - He answers a simple question then the Western Fail go away and check eligability and write/make up a whole story around Howley's answer - and FYI it wouldn't be the 1st time the WF have written libellous things, I work for the Welsh Government and they make up stories (usually contradiciting stories printed a few months before) which are shockingly untrue all the time.

Aye, fair enough it's a rag of a paper. Making up a story around an interview is one thing, but actually fabricating a quote is a bit different!

Yup rag is the word - still as you say it's no big deal either way - there's a way to go before any of them prove their playing too well to ignore and while residency doesn't sit well with me (and in Dirksens case I'd much rather he improved the USA team) it's been done by unions/countries all over the world.

But at this point picking them is a world away with a long period of time inbetween.

It's you that is making the 'big issue' Sugar, or trying to sell it.

Point is all of us, the media companies and the regional teams knew they were ineligible long before this story. Welsh teams bring in these sort of players so they can dodge around overseas player quota.

Morgannwg wrote:Welsh teams bring in these sort of players so they can dodge around overseas player quota.

Which are set by the WRU to encourage the regions to bring in players who will gain residency qualification and play for Wales.

Smirnoffpriest, I can't see Dirksen moving back to the states for the 3 yeas required to regain qualification.

So why are the WRU looking to move away from that ruling and change them year on year then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19324383


Martyn Williams is now claiming that he reckons Petorious will be capped soon.

Not only poaching a South African but another Gloucester boy. Tut tut

All three players in this thread have a lot to do to push Welsh players out of contention.

Dirksen is behind North, Cuthbert, Robinson, Halfpenny. Paterson and Pretorius behind Lydiate, Faletau, Ryan Jones, Lewis Evans, Tupuric, McCuscker, Turnbull and Shingler.

They all have a lot to prove.