Wales look at Pretorious, Paterson and Dirksen for future call-ups

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/05/14/wales-target-southern-hemisphere-blues-duo-and-ospreys-star-hanno-dirksen-for-future-selection-91466-30967932/

ROB HOWLEY has revealed three foreign-born regional stars are on Wales' selection radar.

Howley admitted he has checked up on the eligibility of Ospreys winger Hanno Dirksen and Blues forwards Andries Pretorius and Michael Paterson ahead of naming the summer training squad for the Test series in Australia.

Those checks revealed South Africans Dirksen and Pretorius and New Zealander Paterson weren’t available for the tour of Australia as they still have time to serve before qualifying for Wales on the three-year residency rule.

But back rower Pretorius, who has just returned from a six-month knee injury lay-off, could be big candidate for Wales honours next season as he becomes eligible later this summer.

Blues Player of the Year Paterson has another 12 months to run before qualifying in the summer of 2013, while Dirksen won’t be eligible until January 2014.

“We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen,” he said.

“They are not qualified for this tour.”


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Say what you like about eligibility rules, but these 3 would certainly add depth to the welsh squad.

Pretorious is likely to play 8 next season and be eligible for Wales (and has previously stated he wants to play for Wales) - he could prove to be the long term backup to Faletau at 6.

Paterson would provide further depth to the backrow, and could really challenge Lydiate if he can take his regional performances to the international level.

Dirksen is not really a surprise - Wales are a bit short on wings after S.Williams retirement and nobody is really pushing North or even the newby Cuthbert for a place. Pity we will have to wait until 2014 to see if Dirksen can step up to international rugby.

Did they catch them at the end of that movie? I dont remember a sequel?

What happens if you're a test tube baby

Depends where the tube is made i suppose!

Ha ha ha...!

maestegmafia wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Pretorius and Dirksen are good players. Hanno does actually seem a bit of a journeyman, but if he stays for a few more years and then gets to represent Wales I may change my mind.

Hanno has been in Wales for two seasons now. He isn't to be allowed to play for Wales until he has been in Wales for four years. Shows plenty of commitment.

But I am sure that the US team would benefit from his services far more than Wales. And the USA don't have to worry about Wales holding him for international ransom like other countries do so he would be able to make all their training sessions and matches.

Not sure about that Maes. If he did decide to play for the US, then i think there would be some problems with release and contract negotiations as well.

gowales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Pretorius and Dirksen are good players. Hanno does actually seem a bit of a journeyman, but if he stays for a few more years and then gets to represent Wales I may change my mind.

Hanno has been in Wales for two seasons now. He isn't to be allowed to play for Wales until he has been in Wales for four years. Shows plenty of commitment.

But I am sure that the US team would benefit from his services far more than Wales. And the USA don't have to worry about Wales holding him for international ransom like other countries do so he would be able to make all their training sessions and matches.

Not sure about that Maes. If he did decide to play for the US, then i think there would be some problems with release and contract negotiations as well.

Why...?

We have had no issue with sending Nicky Little to Scotland or Tommy to Ireland, the Scarlets were happy for Deacon to represent Fiji or Ben Morgan to England.

The only thing hampering a player in Wales that does not want to play for Wales is that the regions want to have sustainably cheap players on their books. Dirksen is far too new to the senior game to demand a top wage. He would be more likely of one if he were a Welsh player.

Maes - We just abided by the IRB Release dates when we released players like Manu and Morgan - Fiji can't afford to request players outside of IRB windows and England can only request players based in England outside of IRB Windows (so Morgan had to return between game 2 and 3(?) to the Scarlets because the Scarlets requested him back). Bowe had an agreement written into his contract so he could be released early.

It's the same with players in England - they get released for IRB windows but would need an agreement put into their contracts to be released earlier than this.

These agreements can make players less attractive to clubs during contract negotiations as they know they'll be away (and in Dirksens case travelling a few thousand miles round the world) for internationals

Is Dirksen even qualified for the US? Wasn't it just based on residency, which was lost when he moved away. Unless one of his parents/grandparents are from the States he's only eligible for SA (at the moment)

Dirksen played for the US through age group rugby.

Which tells you how much playing for Wales would mean to him.

I look forward to seeing these players in a Welsh shirt. At least it will be easier for commentators who get confused with too many Joneses and Williamses on the team sheet.

I would have thought if the team consists of Jones' and Williams' only it would make it easier for commentators.

biltongbek wrote:I would have thought if the team consists of Jones' and Williams' only it would make it easier for commentators.

You've got to be able to differentiate them though. It can be a problem with first names too. We don't want another 'Shane who?' controversy on our hands when Wales had two proud Welshmen called Shane.

It could be worse, you could have 3 proud englishmen called Vainikolo, Tuilagi and Botha

RubyGuby wrote:It could be worse, you could have 3 proud englishmen called Vainikolo, Tuilagi and Botha

Don't forget Berrit.

RubyGuby wrote:It could be worse, you could have 3 proud englishmen called Vainikolo, Tuilagi and Botha

And then there was Ojomoh and Ubogo

I think Ubogo and his mate were from Preston

RubyGuby wrote:I think Ubogo and his mate were from Preston

Meaning?

It's Ubogu. I just googled Ubogo to check

sugarNspikes wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think Ubogo and his mate were from Preston

Meaning?

Work it out Tate & Lyle

Did Ubogu move there after immigration from Nigeria? I thought he lived in Devon

EDIT: Is there a Preston in Devon? I know of 2 in England

RubyGuby wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I think Ubogo and his mate were from Preston

Meaning?

Work it out Tate & Lyle

Maybe you could explain please?

Explain what sweetie?

RubyGuby wrote:Explain what sweetie?

What this comment meant. Maybe I just don't get it, but it doesn't seem to make sense.

RubyGuby wrote:I think Ubogo and his mate were from Preston

Maybe it means that Victor Ubogu played for Preston Grasshoppers?

Faletau, back at ya.

Victor Ubogu went to West Buckland school in Devon fyi.

Toby Faletau went to Pontygof Primary School in Ebbw Vale later attended Trevethin Community School then Filton College Rugby Academy.

And as far as I know he also never had HM Customs trying to extradite him for being an illegal immigrant.

Colin Charvis, Will James, Luke Charteris, John Taylor, Graham Price, Toby Falatau, George North, Tom Shanklin, Sonny Parker, Brent Cockbain, Shane Howarth, Brett Sinkinson, Jason Jones-Hughes, Matt Cardey, Peter Rogers, Matt Morgan, Hanno Dirksen, Hugo Ellis, Andries Pretorius.....

Fatima Whitbread, Tessa Sanderson, Carol Decker, Jenny Pitman, Roy 'Chubby' Brown, Audley Harrison...

Not the point Maesteg, posters were having a pop at Victor Ubogu cos he sounded a bit foreign and i was merely throwing one back (think Faletau is exceptional for Wales and pretty much secured Morgan for us thank you very much). Childish but that's the level on this site now. Well done for bringing up the fact that an administrative error nearly scuppered a great international career though, well done indeed!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fatima Whitbread, Tessa Sanderson, Carol Decker, Jenny Pitman, Roy 'Chubby' Brown, Audley Harrison...

Surely they're not all from Preston

Carpe Diem wrote:Well done for bringing up the fact that an administrative error nearly scuppered a great international career though, well done indeed!

What was the administrative error you mentioned? Havent heard that one before. I thought it was a clear cut case of a rugby loving Leicestershire MP instigating the case and preventing a Tigers Academy player being deported because the candidate about to be deported was good at rugby?

Ss, this is way off post but what traits of Dirksen do u not like

maestegmafia wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Well done for bringing up the fact that an administrative error nearly scuppered a great international career though, well done indeed!

What was the administrative error you mentioned? Havent heard that one before. I thought it was a clear cut case of a rugby loving Leicestershire MP instigating the case and preventing a Tigers Academy player being deported because the candidate about to be deported was good at rugby?

Maes,dont get factual,they dont like it you know!
Back on topic,I would be saddened if we stoop to England's level with this type of selection.It hasnt worked that well for them though another Saffer might make a difference.
15 Welsh blokes with no merceraries would be my choice-I reserve the hypocritical right to the old "if you cant beat em,join em ploy!!!!!!"

I agree taffin mate

Do the WRU still allow 2 uncapped NWQ players at the regions (Irish Project Players)? Or have they got rid of them now (I know the numbers were reducing)? That would encourage it.

You could try and petition the WRU to change the rule that only capped NWQ can be brought to the regions. These, in theory, would be the better ones and there would be no way for them to gain Welsh qualification.

You could try and petition the WRU to change the rule that only capped NWQ can be brought to the regions. These, in theory, would be the better ones and there would be no way for them to gain Welsh qualification

Now that's the kind of thinking I like. No hidden agenda's, using quality experienced guys for the betterment of the regions.

The foreign player earns his wage for the time he is there. As black and white as it can be Hammer, no grey areas.

biltongbek wrote:

You could try and petition the WRU to change the rule that only capped NWQ can be brought to the regions. These, in theory, would be the better ones and there would be no way for them to gain Welsh qualification

Now that's the kind of thinking I like. No hidden agenda's, using quality experienced guys for the betterment of the regions.

The foreign player earns his wage for the time he is there. As black and white as it can be Hammer, no grey areas.

Bill this whole thread is pure speculation. Toby Faletau is the only player in the welsh squad without a welsh born parent.

We don't have any south Africans aussies or kiwis. There is also little chance the lads mentioned are going to play for Wales unless there is a big injury crisis.

The fact that they are elidgable is the IRBs laws.

There are project players in all NH and SH countries. So far Wales have not selected any.

I would need a work around for kids brought over but should be workable.

How did andy Marinos come to play for wales? As far as I know he was born in Zimbabwe and played rugby in SA for the Stormers/WP before he went to Wales?

HammerofThunor wrote:

I would need a work around for kids brought over but should be workable.

Kids, in my view is a different story, if your parents move to another country it isnt like you have any choice. So if you move to another country before 18 I think there shouldn't be an issue hampering them to play for their adopted country.

Dylan Hartley moved over at 16. I think he moved in with his Grandma (vaguely remember something like that). I think it was Worcester who originally offered him an academy contract. If you have it at 18 then you'll see move guys coming across at 17 like we see in soccer now. Is this a problem though as that player would be largely developed by the system he moves to at 16/17?

I suppose you need to look at the reason why he is moving.

The question is when does a school kid start attracting attention with his playing ability.

If you look at the Craven week we have here in SA, each province select their best school kids to play in a week long tournament, where the best school kids in SA are on offer for anyone to see. Now if you hade clubs that come here with scouts to start offering academy contracts left right and centre, I would have a major issue with that, as these boys are our future stars.

So if dad moves to another country because he found a job and son just comes along for the ride, for all intent and purposes it has little to do with the kid.

But if the kid is actually "headhunted" to move as an academy player then we need to prevent this sort of thing.

In all honesty if that is where rugby is at already then I see little hope of keeping rugby pure in the sense where globally mixed teams could be prevented.

I do find it interesting that you think that the kids options should be based on his dad's/parent's decisions rather than his own. If a kid decides to move to England for uni and rugby at 18 (decision made at 17) then he shouldn't play for them but if his dad is a mercenary and moved to the country for work he should be allowed to play.

BTW I am extrapolating my view of some of your points almost to the ridiculous although I'd argue still valid

No problems, take it to the extreme if you need to.

My point about the kids is that if there is intent to bring a kid over for the specific reason to exploit his rugby playing ability, then it is a way clubs or countries find to circumvent any methods that prohibits him to represent another country, where as a kid that hasn't made his mark in sport yet, would not have developed sufficiently in his home country to be earmarked as a future star. Hence if he follows his parents to another country, it would mean his development to the point where he can play professional rugby has not happened until he arrived in the new country.

Think about it from the perspective where currently a club will look toawrds a solid, well performing professional that can add benefit to their team. They won;t contract a gu that isn't viable, in other words they don't want to invest in the development of an overseas player, they want him good enough to perform immediately ie. instant gratification.

Same in my view goes for a kid still at school. Obviously slightly different.

sheephead wrote:Ss, this is way off post but what traits of Dirksen do u not like

Is it only SS who's allowed to answer?

What is hilariously obtuse is that the posters on this thread would like the qualification rules stiffened to prevent players being poached do not want qualification to drop to U20s rugby across the board.

You are a voting consentual adult at 18 let that be an age where you stipulate which country you are from as part of your annual club registration.

After that, you can not change your mind.

I can not think why someone would change their mind. I have lived abroad from Wales in countries across the globe most of my adult life, until two years ago I had previously lived in the US for longer than my native Wales. But Wales is where I am from and who I would wish to play for if I was good enough.

sheephead wrote:Ss, this is way off post but what traits of Dirksen do u not like

He doesn't seem to be able to put in a clean tackle, from what I have seen I would say the majority of them are either without arms, around the players throat/ears, or borderline tip/spear tackles (against the Blues he looked like he was going to do a WWE style powerbomb on Hewitt after the whistleuntil Ryan Jones eased Hewitt down). He doesn't really seem to have much to his game bar brute force and physicallity. I guess it would have been easier to say the same traits people dislike about Brew.

That said next time he plays he wll only put in lovely clean tackles, and will step around everyone, because thats what happens when I slate someone!

Maes, not every one has your strength of conviction and patriotism though.

I've seen how money can influence people in my career, and it ain't pretty.