England SA tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations nearly over...a decent effort from England.

Will they take a larger squad to give newer fringe players (Burns, May etc) a chance...?

How many is planned for the squad?

Now the question is...who would you take...and possibly more important...who would you give the summer off to rest/recover from injuries..ie Ben Youngs,

Yup another big residency debate going on, on another thread.

He's been hee 8 years and was working in a carpet factory...so he's been here a while...

ANyway...whilst he may be in control of the shirt at the moment...i suspect he may get overtaken very soon...

biltongbek

I know that he was playing for Boland but wasn't holding down a starting place and decided to try his luck in Europe.

For those of you who don't know the status of Boland... they are a 2nd tier currie cup team... so the 3rd tier of SA rugby.

Not that I dismiss any of the bok pack as being a bit lightweight in the brains department, esp with Jannie being a medical doctor.... but asking the pack to do the calls in Sotho etc would be hilarious and probably a disaster waiting to happen.

The calls will almost certainly be in Afrikaans but they will just be as much of a benefit to ENG with Botha as Juandre Krugers knowledge of working with Hartley for 2 years at Northampton will be so I think they equal each other out.

fa, I was just pulling their legs.

It will most certainly be in afrikaans.

mind games.. start spreading the rumours that chilliboy is making the calls from now on.

'So our players now have to learn clicks'!!!!!

The easiest way to teach them how to do clicks, is to eat a piece of car tire, then try and blow bubbles with it, it will make the tongue very strong and assist with those loud clicks.

It would be worth changing it just to see the mandatory upsurge in Xhosa lessons for all cities with S15 franchises and the hubs of national rugby teams in the north.

Make the rest of the rugby world waste time learning the language whilst you guys are polishing your skills.

And the best thing about your idea is it will create employment.

True but you'd then be stuck with Chilliboy as your starting hooker and that would negate any benefit of language as he'd make a mess of it anyway and then get done in the scrum.

He's not my favourite Sam, but he ain't bad either.

someone pointed him to the gym finally so he'll looking good for his place on the subs bench.... or at least scrapping for it with Strauss.

England should rest and not take on tour : Cole, Palmer, Croft, Dickson, Barrit, Tuilagi, Hodgson and Foden

England should drop : Dowson and Stevens

Some of the other 6N campaigners can go along but their work rates need carefull monitoring.

We should blood/play (as applicable): Lawes, Mullan, Doran-Jones, Marler, Webber and the next hooking cab off the rank, Wood, Steffan Armitage, Guest, Haskell if back, Simpson, next scrum half off the rank, Freddie Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph, Trinder, Sharples, Wade

p.s sorry forgot we need to give game time to Attwood/Garvey/Launchbury whoever is deemed ready etc.

James Fitzpatrick no.12 for the midweek side...beast in the midfield!

He's not my favourite Sam, but he ain't bad either

He holds a place in the worst front row ever seen at Welford Road. I couldn't believe they were actually South African they were that bad. I saw him in a couple of Super 15 games last season, he was alright though I remain non-plussed as to why he's a regular international and Brits of Sarries of Strauss at Leinster aren't.

England should rest and not take on tour : Cole, Palmer, Croft, Dickson, Barrit, Tuilagi, Hodgson and Foden

Why? I wanted players who had not had much rest last summer given proper time off. Barritt, Dickson and Hodgson all had a proper break and pre season last summer. The likes of Youngs and Hartley have not and have seen their form dip.

I think only players who have had long seasons should be rested, we want to prevent burn out but we don't want to send a weak team out there.

I don't understand why ENG would want to pass up the chance of winning a match at least in South Africa.

They have to take their best players, its a chance of a lifetime. Very seldom will a NH team come to SA and stand a chance of sniffing a series win. SA aren't weak but they are not as strong as they have been in years... and next year and beyond they will be far far stronger.

Only the Lions (2 out of 13) and NZ (1 in not sure how many) have ever won a series in SA, thats it.

Win (however unlikely) and it will send shockwaves around the world.

Rest players for what exactly?

"He holds a place in the worst front row ever seen at Welford Road. I couldn't believe they were actually South African they were that bad"

I think JDP & Steenkamp were also involved that night and they've done pretty well. I really like Chillboy, always thought he got a bit of a bad rap.

We have to look to take our strongest squad with a sprinkling of youth to blood (Marler, May, Sharples...poss Wallace midweek). We should be aiming to win at least one test and compete in the others......it's not going to be easy.

Sgt_Pooly

He got the bad rep for not earning his place.. for 6 years until now he has been at best the 5th best Hooker in SA and was in there for political reasons only.

Not his fault but he was often used by SARU to justify their statements saying rugby is for all etc. Same with Ndugane.... tries hard, but isn't and was never good enough.

Now after a couple of retirements and concentrating on his fitness he actually is looking a decent player and worthy of his squad place.

I still think Chilliboy is way down on the pecking order though.

1. Bismarck
2. Strauss
3. Tiaan Liebenberg
4. chiliboy

lower than Tiaan.... as much as I am a WP man I would have to disagree but I respect your opinion!

Fa, Liebenberg has been the most under rated hooker in Sa for some time.

He has an incredible work rate, damn good on the drive and rarely misses a tackle. A real hard grafter. Chiliboy doesn't outshine Liebenberg in any area.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

He's not my favourite Sam, but he ain't bad either

He holds a place in the worst front row ever seen at Welford Road. I couldn't believe they were actually South African they were that bad. I saw him in a couple of Super 15 games last season, he was alright though I remain non-plussed as to why he's a regular international and Brits of Sarries of Strauss at Leinster aren't.

England should rest and not take on tour : Cole, Palmer, Croft, Dickson, Barrit, Tuilagi, Hodgson and Foden

Why? I wanted players who had not had much rest last summer given proper time off. Barritt, Dickson and Hodgson all had a proper break and pre season last summer. The likes of Youngs and Hartley have not and have seen their form dip.

I think only players who have had long seasons should be rested, we want to prevent burn out but we don't want to send a weak team out there.

In my thinking was the schedule with AIS and then possibly Lions etc

I want to protect England players as much as possible and unlike some countries we should be able to do that a bit with our playing resources plus we need to build more depth in some areas.

My criteria for resting were:

1.Workload over time. Sam i am happy to defer to your greater knowledge of rests that players have had.
2. Position and need to build or explore strength in depth. - e.g Croft is a terrific player but we have about 17 6s
3. Workload in games. Guys like barrit get through a mountain of work every game and need protecting from themselves!

Triangulation

If I were English I would priorities a SA series over some home AI's easily. In SA you will truly test how good this team is... not with all the home comforts of Twickenham and 80000 supporters.

If these guys want to get on a lions tour next year, SA is the place to show Gatland et al why they should be picked. i.e.

I can perform in the most hostile environments in world rugby, outside of my comfort zone and thousands of miles from home. Thats what the lions wants.

fa0019 wrote:Triangulation

If I were English I would priorities a SA series over some home AI's easily. In SA you will truly test how good this team is... not with all the home comforts of Twickenham and 80000 supporters.

If these guys want to get on a lions tour next year, SA is the place to show Gatland et al why they should be picked. i.e.

I can perform in the most hostile environments in world rugby, outside of my comfort zone and thousands of miles from home. Thats what the lions wants.

I want us to win every match we play.

It is a juggling act is it not. But i do take your point about away wins being valuable in many ways.

Im actually in two minds about resting players...

I want to send the strongest team down there...but as Sam has rightly pointd out...we can still rest players AND send a strong team down with players in positions of no depth getting serious exposure like LH, Hooker and TH...positions we are seriously short on experience...but have the likes of Mullan, Marler etc particularly Mullan a classy performer. Equally at TH Doran Jones is an excellent scrummaging TH who needs games...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im actually in two minds about resting players...

I want to send the strongest team down there...but as Sam has rightly pointd out...we can still rest players AND send a strong team down with players in positions of no depth getting serious exposure like LH, Hooker and TH...positions we are seriously short on experience...but have the likes of Mullan, Marler etc particularly Mullan a classy performer. Equally at TH Doran Jones is an excellent scrummaging TH who needs games...

But Geordie, that in itself is a contradiction. Your best squad means your best players, not a squad where you want potential internationals gain experience.

The best way for youngsters to gain experience is to fill the bench with a few and let them come on amongst a squad of experienced players that can guide them, and slowly these guys will gain from it.

You fill a team with more than a few at a time for short bursts, there is no one to fall back on if the toffee hits the fan.

biltongbek wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im actually in two minds about resting players...

I want to send the strongest team down there...but as Sam has rightly pointd out...we can still rest players AND send a strong team down with players in positions of no depth getting serious exposure like LH, Hooker and TH...positions we are seriously short on experience...but have the likes of Mullan, Marler etc particularly Mullan a classy performer. Equally at TH Doran Jones is an excellent scrummaging TH who needs games...

But Geordie, that in itself is a contradiction. Your best squad means your best players, not a squad where you want potential internationals gain experience.

The best way for youngsters to gain experience is to fill the bench with a few and let them come on amongst a squad of experienced players that can guide them, and slowly these guys will gain from it.

You fill a team with more than a few at a time for short bursts, there is no one to fall back on if the toffee hits the fan.

In an ideal world yes i wholeheartedly agree...you build a team with a solid core then over the years you replace the retiring et cwith the new talent into a settled team. But poor management has meant that hasnt happened in England

Some positions we are fine...Croft can rest, Wood comes in...no issues.

But we dont have that luxury in a couple of positions...particularly front row where without Cole, Corbs and Hartley we have almost zero caps...

Now we have Matt Mullan who is a very powerful scrummager...but also very strong in the loose..who will do very well out in SA. I would have no issues with him starting v SA and it would give him added experience. Likewise Dorran Jones at tighthead...as opposed to Matt Stevens who i want nowhere near the team.
Hooker is worse..where after Hartley we have the likes of Gray who has played Heineken Cup...and then a group of kids...Powerful kids...but not first choice for their clubs...

I don't get it. We send our strongest side. It's crazy to do anything else. The team is on the up & even one win in SA would be a massive boost.

These guys are professionals - if you asked, how many would want to be rested for an opportunity like this?

I know Sam's got a point, but this tour is too important for experimental sides.

Ah Wasp...im just making an arguement for and against...

Get that Geordie. but for me it's a no brainer - if you're first choice & fit - you travel.

Also don't forget, this is a massive opportunity for the players to stick their hands up for a Lions place - you wouldn't want to be left out

The good thing about England touring (and the lack of Saxons rugby) is that whoever is in charge can take whoever he wants.
He could take the whole EPS and Saxons squads if he wanted to giving him huge options (to rest or not to rest) and also to select the in form players that are doing well in the training sessions.

I know...and for the likes of Corbs who really are still in their infancy of international rugby its another big experience so i agree with you.

...but i can see the arguement for resting a couple of players who have player ALOT of rugby.

I guess we shall see soon what path they take...i suspect a full strength squad will be taken...

The reality is who ever is appointed as coach of England has an opportunity.

SA hasn't been this unpredictable or vulnerable for a while now. Since November 2006 England has not only lost 7 in a row against us, but has also been on the wrong side of some nasty losses.

There is a mental edge SA holds over the English team, both are going to have a good number of new players and obviously new coaches.

If England sends a team that does not comprise their best the mental edge or ascendancy will only be transferred onto the new group and the winning run of SA might just then continue for another good number of years.

England must send out their best avaiable squad for the long term benefit as much as the immediate result.

If they can win a match in SA which they haven't done for some time, it can change all that. To suggest a few players must be rested, might just bight England for years to come.

I wouldn't mind if England sent a compromised squad, all the more beneift for us, but the choices their new coach makes now, will impact the rivalry between these two nations for the next four years.

Biltong

+1

wicked are you winking at me?

Only in a very manly, tough rugby player camaraderie sort of way

Just checking, I am not sure if I am more afraid of my wife seeing a man winking at me, or the fact that a man is winking at me.

But now that you have explained it I am just fine with it.

Don't you all wink at each other over a pint in SA?

I agree with a few posters on here that we should take our strongest possible squad, just because our first choice players are all there doesn't mean they have to play all the games anyhows.

Getting a win over SA would be massive.

Workload in games. Guys like barrit get through a mountain of work every game and need protecting from themselves!

True but Barritt will gain rest time at his club and as an international rookie who had all of last summer off (with no injuries) he should be good for 3 more games at the end of the season. My concern is more around those who spent all summer in the RWC training camp and then who played high intensity RWC games before a busy club schedule, more high intensity 6N games and now had a club run in to go. After all that it just seems that then shipping them out to SA might be too much.

But Geordie, that in itself is a contradiction. Your best squad means your best players, not a squad where you want potential internationals gain experience

There are players who are potentially equal in ability to those in certain positions but because of the RWC there has been a lack of opportunities to gain experience and test these players at international level. Prop being a prime example, Mullan is in my mind a better loosehead than Corbisiero (current first choice) but was injured when Corbs got rushed into the set up after Sheridan's injury. Hence Mullan has never got another chance whilst Corbs has played lots of games. Cole and Paul Doran-Jones is a similar story. PDJ is a very good scrummager and works hard around the park, England will lose very little for him replacing Cole and what will be lost is only international experience.

There are some form options like Brown at full back that are just being held up because talented internationals are in there way. If Foden is rested then Brown will get his proper chance. It will mean that come the AIs England won't have a viable international team they'll have a viable international squad. Competition will drive these guys on to work harder and perform better making a better team in the long run.

Sam

Agree with amost everything you say. Take them and rotate the test team by all means.

But I still think we should take any first choice players who are fit.

Well explained Sam...

See im winking now...

Agree with amost everything you say. Take them and rotate the test team by all means.

No, because if you take the first choice players then they have to play otherwise there is no competition for places as everyone gets a go. Either you take the first team, risking burn out and injuries, then use the mid week games to force competition for places. Or the alternative is to rest a selection of first teamers (not all just those over taxed ones who have been in the team a while) and then tell the replacements they need to set a marker down now and fight to challenge those players that aren't there.

If you rest say Cole, then you tell PDJ, Wilson and Harden that this tour is their best chance to stake a claim, wrack up the experience and maybe be in a position to be a Lions bolter than what you'll get is three tightheads fighting tooth and nail for those full and mid week tests. They'll know Cole is number one but they'll know this is there time and they'll get a proper chance and not just 20 minutes at the end of a game. Breed the competition!

All good points, but.............................

Beating SA in SA (never mind winning a series) would you risk it by weakening your team?

I'd have the rested players on stand by in case of an emergency but I don't think there is that big a difference between some of the first teamers and the replacements listed.

First team replacements I listed:

Mullan for Corbs - I think Mullan could actually be better
PDJ for Cole - Cole is better at the moment but a lot of that improvement came from exposure to international rugby that PDJ hasn't had
Wood for Croft - both excellent flankers who add to the lineout
Trinder for Manu - added footballing skills but lacking Manu's power, still a classy OC option and we need to develop better alternatives than Farrell!
Sharples for Ashton - Ashton off form, Sharples is rapid and has a better kicking game
Brown for Foden - Brown lacks the crazy foot work and awesome acceleration but is bigger and better in defence as well as having a cannon of a left boot (which may help against Steyn's kicking game)

Other than Trinder there's no real loss and Trinder is a good OC anyway so I'm not worried by making those changes.

Fair enough. I couldn't really argue with any of those, except as you say possibly Manu.

However, I observed in a previous post that this is a massive opportunity for players to put their hands up for a Lions shirt. Not sure how happy they'd be to be rested/ what that would do to team unity?

However, I observed in a previous post that this is a massive opportunity for players to put their hands up for a Lions shirt. Not sure how happy they'd be to be rested/ what that would do to team unity?

I think if you point out to the rested players that going in fresh to next season where there is still the AIs and the 6Ns would be beneficial to having your enforced rest period mean you don't get a full pre season with your club for the second year running. Add in the additional chance of injuries and burnout and if anything a more rest time over the summer is probably better for them if the want to go on the Lions tour.

Two summers worth of rugby with smaller rest periods before a big summer of Lions rugby next year. That will cause issues in those who play a lot of rugby for their clubs or who have niggling injuries (like Manu) that have to be managed. No player will like it but at the same time players will tell you they are fit when they aren't because they want to play, as part of the management you have to manage your resources as best you can.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

However, ...

Sam you have a PM