England SA tour 2012

6 Nations nearly over...a decent effort from England.

Will they take a larger squad to give newer fringe players (Burns, May etc) a chance...?

How many is planned for the squad?

Now the question is...who would you take...and possibly more important...who would you give the summer off to rest/recover from injuries..ie Ben Youngs,

There is still the Ireland game to come and the small matter of who will be coach, which will vastly alter the answers to those questions.

Personally I think they need to take a very strong team, the trouble is burn out. The fact is though that they will not beat South Africa without a full strength side. Even with one they would probably lose, but they cannot afford a complete hammering. If Mallet is in charge he would simply have to win at least one test to get people on his side. If Lancaster is in charge and we lost to Ireland then there is a similar argument. If Lancaster is in charge and we beat Ireland then there is a possibility of a bit more experimentation.

The Ireland game is massive. If we lose that then there will be questions about whether the performance against France was a bit of a fluke.

I would take a larger squad but keep the proper first team for the tests (I assume there are a few non-tests on the tour?).

Sorry for my ignorance, but are England playing any games outside the internationals? Is is just the test matches?

Im actually not sure of the tour...cant find much info...on the games or numbers of squad etc.

There is still the Ireland game to come and the small matter of who will be coach, which will vastly alter the answers to those questions

I agree the Ireland game is a biggy....but interesting that you think Mallet would possibly change the squad...

Im not sure he would change it that much...would he bring back some more experienced players?

I'm not saying he will alter the squad massively, if at all. In fact I would expect more change if Lancaster is still in charge. That's all just guess work but it is another variable into the mix. Mallet might decide to do practically anything, he played Bergamasco at scrum half once!

All I can really say is what I would do if I was in charge, which is to take an expanded squad and play a semi second string against non international teams to see how players do. If they step up they MIGHT feature against the boks, but above all I would have my best team playing against SA.

As for predictions as to what will actually happen - no idea! Too many variables.

I think that any player that has played more than 3 games in the RWC and the 6N should be allowed to rest over the summer and not included in the touring party.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think that any player that has played more than 3 games in the RWC and the 6N should be allowed to rest over the summer and not included in the touring party.

I agree they need rest, burn out is a huge issue. I also hate sending weakened teams on tours to get a mullering. The only possible solution is fewer games. That isn't going to happen so we're screwed. I suppose you just have to go on a player by player basis.

HHmmm Sam i can agree with that...but who could that potentially cross out...

Cole, Croft, Corbs, Ashton, Foden, Palmer?,

Would you include Flood and Youngs in that?

I don't see anyone getting a rest to be honest. Regardless of the Ireland result Lancaster will want to develop the side a bit more leading into some crucial Autumn Internationals. He'll want the current 6N players to face SA together and learn from the experience.

From his point of view, if he rests players and we get a good stuffing in SA, then the AI's also start to look like a major challenge, and it threatens the ethos he's trying to build. If he's sat there next 6N having not beaten a single SH side then people will be saying he was the wrong choice.

Similarly if Mallet gets the job he'll want to make a mark and create a bit of momentum heading into the home AI's. I don't see rest for any of the top names.

I would like to see the current 30 odd squad players in the tour party, with the exception of people like Dowson and JTH. Plus maybe another 10 players or so, similar to the OZ tour of 2010. They played a couple of mid-week games then aswell and I assume the same will be true of SA.

SA is going to be the most physical encounter most of these guys will ever face, and that mean whoever is coach they need to look at bringing a bit more balance to the pack.

For me we need to see: Garvey, Attwood, Fearns, Launchbury, George, Marler, PDJ, Slater, Wallace and a few others get a chance and really lay down a marker.

*Maybe Lancaster/Mallet may consider taking Easter on the tour for experience and to look at him at Lock?

Backs-wise: Freddie Burns, Jonny May and Charlie Sharples need to get some test experience (although they may all get broken out in SA!) coupled with Care, 36, Trinder, Goode, Daly and Joseph to name a few!

mr_stonelea wrote:Sorry for my ignorance, but are England playing any games outside the internationals? Is is just the test matches?

not sure yet, I tried to fin out yesterday but could only find the fixtures for the tests, will let you guys know as soon as I see anything.

HHmmm Sam i can agree with that...but who could that potentially cross out...

Cole, Croft, Corbs, Ashton, Foden, Palmer?,

Would you include Flood and Youngs in that?

Youngs yes because he has played in 3 or more games in each but Flood has only been on the bench for one 6N game and has gained rest time whilst the LV Cup was on and Ford was selected. Hartley would have to be included as well.

Those players are most at risk of burn out and are generally in the positions in which we most need to find new blood, there are plenty of options it's not the end of the world should any of those players be rested. It will only provide competition for the AIs with more capped players and every player should be fit (barring nasty injury) for their teams pre season.

So following my criteria I'd go with (I think there are some mid week games);

Props - Marler, Mullan, PDJ, Wilson, Stevens
Hookers - Gray, Brooker, Webber
Locks - Parling, Botha, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury (covers lock and backrow)
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Waldrom, Seymour, Dowson
9s - Care, Dickson, Dickson
10s - Flood, Farrell, Burns
Centres - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Lowe
Wings - Sharples, Strettle, Joseph, Short
Full backs - Goode, Brown

Strong enough to give the Boks something to think about, plenty of experience to be gained but no youngsters likely to be thrown to the wolves as it were.

Interesting...your list would suggest its only really the front row thats actually affected....

Marler and the Quins hookers would be the only uncapped front rowers. Players need to be rested, we've seen a drop off of form and fitness for a number of the RWC stars (not all of them) over this season and most of them are in the thick of the 6N action. Makes sense to rest them up ahead of the next season. It would also present the coaching staff with a way to rotate the squad without upsetting player or providing the papers with sensationalist headlines.

Though thinking about it you'd have to replace Stevens from my list. Promote Harden the Glaws prop instead.

formerly known as Sam wrote:So following my criteria I'd go with (I think there are some mid week games);

Props - Marler, Mullan, PDJ, Wilson, Stevens
Hookers - Gray, Brooker, Webber
Locks - Parling, Botha, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury (covers lock and backrow)
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Waldrom, Seymour, Dowson
9s - Care, Dickson, Dickson
10s - Flood, Farrell, Burns
Centres - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Lowe
Wings - Sharples, Strettle, Joseph, Short
Full backs - Goode, Brown

Strong enough to give the Boks something to think about, plenty of experience to be gained but no youngsters likely to be thrown to the wolves as it were.

You know what, you might be on to something here...

It makes sense to me and would leave England with:

Test match/Mid week match

1.Mullan / Marler
2.Webber / Brooker
3.PDJ / Harden
4.Botha / Garvey
5.Parling / Launchbury
6.Robshaw / Dowson
7.Wood / Seymour
8.Morgan / Waldrom
9.Dickson / Dickson
10.Flood / Burns
11.Sharples / Short
12.Barritt / Twelvetrees
13.Trinder / Lowe
14.Strettle / Joseph
15.Brown / Goode
Bench for both
16.Gray
17.Wilson
18.Attwood
19.choose the freshest backrower or include a spare
20.Care
21.Farrell
22.choose the freshest back or include a spare

I'd imagine it will be a 44 man squad again like the tour to Aus in 2010. There were 5 games then, 2 tests and 3 midweeks. This year there will be 3 tests and 2 midweeks again Bok Barbarian sides. That effectively means you need two match day 22s.

I wonder if England will go that far though, 44 man squad quickly seperates like the Lions tour in '05 into first team and second team. That might not be good for morale. Taking 35ish and sharing the benches in a more '09 Lions style would see greater change over between the teams and promote competition.

Sam

You can probably add Manu to that list as well. Doesn't strictly fit your criteria, but he hasn't played much club rugby at all this year

I would like to see Cole go as he is rested frequently at the club and he'd be a useful experienced player to have there, other then that i'd be happy with Sam's squad.

You can probably add Manu to that list as well. Doesn't strictly fit your criteria, but he hasn't played much club rugby at all this year

Due to a re-occuring hamstring injury. Maybe better to rest? I agree there is definitly a reason for him to be included but if he goes then the opportunity to test other centres (something we desperately need to do) will be limited to two games rather than three.

Similar to Yappy and the Cole thing, we are so short on tightheads who offer a decent set piece and more than a handful of caps it's quite worrying. Cole is playing out of his skin and the minute and we know what he offers, letting some competition develop ahead of the AIs may be better for the squad than using Cole for three games and then giving Harden and PDJ one each. Otherwise should Cole get injured early next season we'll be scrabbling around for a tighthead with Stevens the only recently capped option.

The rest excuse should be used to not only look after players but to also spread some caps around as we need a bigger capped squad then we have and the summer tour is 5 friendlies. I dislike experimenting in the 6N as that is a competition and should be all about winning but the summer tours are there for experimentation and improving the squad selection.

I think 35 is too small if we're going to try and get the best from the players over the next season (and having had the WC this). Against SA you're going to use your bench players; expecting those players to play a full match just a few days later, then bench again a few days after that, repeated continuously over 2-3 weeks isn't the best for player welfare. Similarily the midweek bench would have to contain players who were starters in the weekend tests. And that's all before injuries, of which there is likely to be one or two at any given time. The Lions initial squad was 37 but they ended up having called up 45 players. I think by all means keep a slightly tighter rotation and competition between the test & midweek sides, but that it's better to have some younger players along for the ride experiencing the setup that maybe only play one game than run other players into the ground and then have to call more over to SA anyway without having trained with the squad.


Assuming 44 I'd be looking at something like this:

Corbisero, Cole, Mullan, Marler, Stevens, PDJ

Hartley, Gray, Webber, Paice

Lawes, Garvey, Parling, Attwood, Robson, Botha

Wood, Robshaw, Fearns, Morgan, Armitage, Croft, Guest/Waldrom

Youngs, Care, Dickson, Spencer

Farrell, Flood, Burns

Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Joseph, Trinder

Ashton, Sharples, Strettle, May, Wade, Benjamin

Foden, Brown, Goode


If it's more like 40 I'd leave behind some of the players not at their best who were at the WC & 6N.

I agree with your views regarding the resting of players Sam, and don't have much of an issue with your wider team selection. Bar perhaps bringing in Wallace to see what he can do and Jamie George for a bit of a heavier hooker. I just think that as dynamic as Gray is, he's a bit lightweight particularly for a trip to SA.

I don't believe that there will be much rest for the top players though if either coach gets the job, as I outlined above. I think Lancaster will want to build on what is a very rookie team towards the AI's; and Mallet would have to succeed in at least one test against SA to lay down a marker.

I think there's just too much at stake for either coach.

Billtong , what sort of SA Test XXII would you select to face England?

formerly known as Sam wrote:So following my criteria I'd go with (I think there are some mid week games);

Props - Marler, Mullan, PDJ, Wilson, Stevens
Hookers - Gray, Brooker, Webber
Locks - Parling, Botha, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury (covers lock and backrow)
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Waldrom, Seymour, Dowson
9s - Care, Dickson, Dickson
10s - Flood, Farrell, Burns
Centres - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Lowe
Wings - Sharples, Strettle, Joseph, Short
Full backs - Goode, Brown

Strong enough to give the Boks something to think about, plenty of experience to be gained but no youngsters likely to be thrown to the wolves as it were.

Great idea and I agree with your criteria for selections. Could be a case for Lawes who didn't play much in the WC, got inured before the 6N, is injured again now and will probably be at his freshest by June. Would also take May for those hard SA pitches, even if just the mid-week games. We really need a credible alternative to Tuilagi at 13 so by taking Trindler, Lowe & Joseph you've covered the 3 best options for me.

Will Crane be fit before the end of the season? If yes I would select him before Waldrum but only if he has some games under his belt for the Tigers first (could be useful for the Tigers if he did tour as he won't have played much rugby for a long time).

In certain positions I think it would be a waste to take guys who have been there and not quite made it. I'm thinking of guys like David Paice. If we take it as fact that Hartley and Webber are one and two, with Gray as back up I feel it would be a waste of experience to not take someone like Jamie George.

Chjw131 wrote:Billtong , what sort of SA Test XXII would you select to face England?

If I had to hazard a guess as to what Heyeneke Meyer will do. Taking into account only players that are currently available.

1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Juandre Kruger
5. Andries Bekker
6. Heinrich brussow
7. Schalk Burger
8. Pierre Spies
9. Frnacois Hougaard
10 Morne Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
12. Frans Steyn
13. JP Pietersen
14. Gio Aplon
15. Riaan Viljoen

16. Ralapele
17. Werner Kruger
18. Beast
19. Dewald duvenhage
20. Willem Alberts
21. Lwasi Mvovo
22. Juan du Jongh.

I am trying to out guess him.

But this won't be my team.

Regarding resting players. I know it is unsympathetic, but I regard any tour to S.A as important. I think we’ve got to take the first team players, even if they don’t play in every game.

Props LH: Alex Corbisiero, Matt Mullan, Joe Marler
Props TH: Dan Cole, David Wilson, Paul Doran-Jones
Hooker: Dylan Hartley, Rob Webber, Joe Gray, Jamie George
Second Row: Courtney Lawes, Mouritz Botha, Geoff Parling, Matt Garvey, Tom Palmer, Dave Attwood
Flankers: Chris Robshaw, Tom Croft, Tom Wood, Luke Wallace, Jamie Gibson
Number 8: Ben Morgan, Tom Waldrom, Carl Fearns

Scrum Half: Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care
Fly Half: Owen Farrell, Toby Flood, Freddie Burns

Inside Centre: Brad Barritt, Jordan Turner-Hall, Billy Twelvetrees
Outside Centre: Manu Tuilagi, Henry Trinder, Jon Joseph
Wingers: Chris Ashton, Charlie Sharples, David Strettle, Jonny May
Full Back: Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Rob Miller/ Alex Goode

Torn between whether to rest players or take them on tour. One part of me thinks that we are not far along enough in our progression to start resting players. For example unless we are going to drop Ashton all together and disregard him I think he and the back three need as much time as possible with Farrell and co to improve that combination and become a more complete team. We are not far enough down the line to start looking for back ups IMO. However I would agree in resting cole, croft and Lawes I think the pack has performed well but we still haven't quite found a proper 7. I do also see the benefits of not running the legs off players like Foden and Ashton who have played a lot of international rugby this season

Nick Wood should be one of the props. He's had an excellent season so far.

There's no summer Saxon's rugby anymore, so those players will have to be involved in the main tour. Therefore expect a big travelling party.

I believe England need a good series to keep themselves in the world top 4, so I doubt many will be rested.

formerly known as Sam wrote:So following my criteria I'd go with (I think there are some mid week games);

Props - Marler, Mullan, PDJ, Wilson, Stevens
Hookers - Gray, Brooker, Webber
Locks - Parling, Botha, Attwood, Garvey, Launchbury (covers lock and backrow)
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Waldrom, Seymour, Dowson
9s - Care, Dickson, Dickson
10s - Flood, Farrell, Burns
Centres - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Lowe
Wings - Sharples, Strettle, Joseph, Short
Full backs - Goode, Brown

Strong enough to give the Boks something to think about, plenty of experience to be gained but no youngsters likely to be thrown to the wolves as it were.

Wade as a winger please?

I have to agree id be inclined to look at Jaime George over Gray.

Him and Robson at quins just look too lightweight for me.

Is there a churchill cup or equivalent aswell?

Whilst i may be biased i think James Fitzpatrick is someone who needs to be looked at. He has been seriously good recently and to go with it he is an absolute powerhouse monster of a 12.

Wade as a winger please?

Out for the season I think. Not sure it would be worth rushing him back for a tour to SA where the ground will be hard and the contact will be heavy.

Will Crane be fit before the end of the season?

Don't expect him to play before Tigers pre season.

I have to agree id be inclined to look at Jaime George over Gray

The Sky interview with George and Smit a few weeks ago revealed that England had told George he won't be selected until he is regularly playing. That was why he was left out of the Saxons squad so I can't see him getting selected though I wouldn't mind seeing him called up.

I feel that we need to take the strongest side that we can + a few fringe guys to test out.
To maintain the IRB ranking for the WC pools we need away victory against the Saffas, and 1 or 2 against the shouthern hem in the Autum internationals.

With that in mind I would like to see -
So following my criteria I'd go with (I think there are some mid week games);

Props - Marler, Mullan, PDJ, Cole, Corbis
Hookers - Hartley, Webber, George
Locks - Parling, Botha, Attwood, Garvey, Lawes
Backrow - Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Waldrom, Croft, Dowson
9s - Care, Dickson, Youngs
10s - Flood, Farrell,
Centres - Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph, Trinder
Wings - Sharples, Strettle, May, Ashton
Full backs - Foden, Brown

Is there a Churchill Cup this year?

DaveM wrote:There's no summer Saxon's rugby anymore, so those players will have to be involved in the main tour. Therefore expect a big travelling party.

I believe England need a good series to keep themselves in the world top 4, so I doubt many will be rested.

Dave - Why is that? Surely not a lack of money - or is it due to the olympics?

propdavid_london

The Churchill Cup has been cancelled. Last year was the last one. There'll still be our annual game against the Barbarians I'd guess, but that's it for the non-test side

Ah - thats terrible news!
Churchill Cup was going to be my Stag venue of choice.

So are the Saxons no more! I would think that they can participate more in the European Nations Cup or something similar.
I thought that the Churchill Cup had a lot going for it - developing USA/Canada and other invitational sides ect.
Has this been long coming or do we think it has something to do with the management restructuring at the IRB.

I think Grey could do well out there, he is pretty physical but not a beast but is very good technically and if we do play a more open game he could be very handy.

We'll need to play a more open game as I can't see for the life of me how we could over power the SA team, man for man they are nastier then us so we'll have to be smarter and quicker.

About 10 years ago each top tier country was supposed to adopt 2 developing rugby countries to play regular fixtures..England adpoted USA and Canada...hence the Churchill Cup was born. It's a shame the scheme never really kicked off...

I do think England should scrap the June Baabaas fixture and replace it with an international against Georgia or Romania etc...

mr_stonelea wrote:About 10 years ago each top tier country was supposed to adopt 2 developing rugby countries to play regular fixtures..England adpoted USA and Canada...hence the Churchill Cup was born. It's a shame the scheme never really kicked off...

I do think England should scrap the June Baabaas fixture and replace it with an international against Georgia or Romania etc...

The Barbarians do seem to have lost their charm somewhat. It would be good to see some form of replacement for the Churchill Cup as well. Was a reason ever given for its cancellation? Just financial?

I think England should send the Saxons to Eastern Europe and play games against Russia, Georgia and Romania. It would be a draw for those Unions and hopefully get their football mad fans noticing a better sport. Would also be a good work out for our forwards.

Sam - not a bad idea. There is already a tier2 European competition I think.
Just enrol the Saxons.

If Hartley is banned for biting...does that mean Webber is our Starting hooker?

Edit...I see Webber has had a shoulder op and is out for the season.

So where does that leave us? Gray, Jamie George, Lindsay....?

And...would you take Ashton...or let him have a summer off and get focused on playing for Sarries...

I wouldn't take Ashton as he has played during the RWC and the 6N for 3 games or more in each and hence should be rested.

The hooker situation is going to be interesting. The options are; Mears and Chuter (both a bit old and past their best but loads of experience), Youngs and Lindsay (brilliant in the loose but lineout throwing could be an issue), Gray and Brooker (bright talents from Quins but with limited top level experience - HEC and not the most physical), Paice (never really international class but solid and reliable) and finally George (limited first team experience but has serious potential).

Sam...

Mears and Chuter - Experience is essential...however I dont see the point in going back when the players dont offer the same as the inexperienced players.

Youngs and Lindsay - I would be very tempted to take both of these...

Gray - Too lightweight for international Rugby imo..

Brooker - havent seen him play so cant really comment.

Paice - That boat has sailed really i think. Better youngsters.

George - I would take him aswell.

My 3 hookers would be George, Lindsay and Youngs.

Inexperienced and slight questions over their throwing...but they are the future and what a place to be introduced...against the power that is SA.

I also think all three would excel on the hard grounds with their hard running combatative styles.

Wow that's an ambitious selection. Youngs being the oldest at 25 and none have even had Saxons experience. I'd be tempted to take 4 hookers now that Hartley and Webber seem likely to miss out (I'd have rested Hartley anyway). I'd go with Brooker and Gray from Quins and then select one of Youngs and George based on performance as well as taking one of the two experienced options (probably Mears). That would give the squad options and balance in my eyes. I'd wait to see the form though and maybe alter those options slightly depending on injuries and appearences.

Im an ambitious guy

Im just not sold on Gray. Its the same as Robson at SR...they might be playing well...but just think in SA we need power aswell as skills.....

Whilst Youngs isnt a massive guy either he plays it physically...and the other two do aswell...and all have good ball carrying abilities..which will be needed.

Baptism of fire most definately...but i really think they could be finds...

Especially with Corbs and Cole raising their games....

Although under your selection policy we wouldnt have Corbs or Cole would we?

Nope but we would have Mullan and PDJ and Marler and Wilson/Harden. Which aren't bad options, the first option would be particularly powerful in the scrum with Youngs in there (excellent scrummager but lineout needs sharpening up).

Oops, I created a thread on the hooking situation. Would you mind if I quoted your relevant replies on this thread on there?