England SA tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations nearly over...a decent effort from England.

Will they take a larger squad to give newer fringe players (Burns, May etc) a chance...?

How many is planned for the squad?

Now the question is...who would you take...and possibly more important...who would you give the summer off to rest/recover from injuries..ie Ben Youngs,

GO for it chief...

Yeah to be honest with Mullan and PDJ its still fairly strong...and add in one of those three hookers and whilst it may lack in experience...it would be a strong front row....

Mullans got some pace on him aswell...

So are we agreed we go for youth...

Go for it Cumbrian.

We have little option but to look at younger players. I won't say youth because youth implies that we will shove out the under 20s to take a kicking where as actually we have some fine players in their early to mid twenties who have HEC experience and deserve a chance.

I do like the idea of a Mullan and PDJ propping partnership as they both can do the damage in the scrum whilst not being the big cumbersome units that struggle to get around the park. That is sort of ideal for a tour to SA.

Hopefully Steffon Armitage's name will be in the mix. He's the best option England have at 7 at the moment.

But he plays in France and is therefore not eligible for selection (in theory). And I don't believe he suits England's style of play either.

The back row choices will be interesting aswell....

I fully expect :

Morgan, Robshaw, Croft and Wood to go. The remaining...well will they look at opensides...who again are young...or stick with Dowson etc.

Its a sad state of the England team...that we are having to blood so many youngsters...in so many different positions...but its also very exciting...

Its a sad state of the England team...that we are having to blood so many youngsters...in so many different positions...but its also very exciting...

It's sad we have bright talent coming through?

No Sam...ibadly put...

I meant i think its sad that we got to the state that there hasnt been constant development through the years...and that its the case of Moody etc possibly staying too long...and upon his retirement there are no good players with caps and experience ready to just step in...ie we are having to blood the talented youngsters...

Still dont think im getting it across right...

GeordieFalcon wrote:No Sam...ibadly put...

I meant i think its sad that we got to the state that there hasnt been constant development through the years...and that its the case of Moody etc possibly staying too long...and upon his retirement there are no good players with caps and experience ready to just step in...ie we are having to blood the talented youngsters...

Still dont think im getting it across right...

It's a shame we have to play so many youngsters at once without experience rather than doing what all the other Nations do and blood them in smaller groups within a more mature and experienced team, thus putting them under pressure that they needn't have on their International debuts?

I see what you mean, I think Johnno but the process into operation but he did incrementally over time. In a sense Lancaster has taken it on in a similar sort of way but sped the process up a bit. Remember Johnno brought in Robshaw as his mid week captain, he tried to get Morgan into the Saxons, ear marked Parling as the next England lineout leader two years ago (before the injuries), sorted the young propping combo, he introduced Ashton, Foden, Manu and Youngs into the first team etc. Johnno laid some good foundations (won the 6N last year) but the RWC came a year to early he needed more building time.

Sadly the farce at the RWC meant that the media were never going to allow him that time and his position became untenable.

Well Done Chequers...thank you

I agree that Johnno certainly got the process started...he brought a good number of youngsters through, and likewise Lancaster has done the same.

All other teams have a nice stable core...and introduce their talented players in to settled squads making their introduction so much easier.

We just seem to make everything difficult for ourselves.

All other teams have a nice stable core...and introduce their talented players in to settled squads making their introduction so much easier.

I think that was Johnno's aim he just struggled to put it into practice because of the number of injuries and the iffy state of the squad when he took over. With a bit of luck Lancaster will carry on what Johnno has started.

Lets hope he gets the job and is allowed to.

What would your ideal coaching team be?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

All other teams have a nice stable core...and introduce their talented players in to settled squads making their introduction so much easier.

I think that was Johnno's aim he just struggled to put it into practice because of the number of injuries and the iffy state of the squad when he took over. With a bit of luck Lancaster will carry on what Johnno has started.

Yeah I don't really blame Johnson on that front- aside from not taking Wood and Robshaw to the RWC, he did try and blood new players throughout his reign to a degree but circumstances made his job difficult.

I think the summer tours are really key to bringing through new players to the first team and actaully giving them game time. Many people wanted to see the likes of brown and marler starting against italy in this years 6 nations but the likely hood of that happening is very low, as the pressure for results is too high and a coach would leave themselves open to criticism if the player faiuls to perform.

The summer is the off season, the pressure is off, results do become less important. Obviously we all still want to win but there simply isnt as much riding on it, particularly as at the end of the game the sun is usually still shining.

with that in mind i wouls like to see a large portion of the first team travel but would like to see the likes of marler, brown, sharples, may, doran jones perhaps garvey and lauchberry play some part in the tests.

aside from not taking Wood and Robshaw to the RWC

Wood went but Robshaw did not. Wood's form just wasn't that good (mind you neither was Moody's).

What would your ideal coaching team be?

I've posted this elsewhere, I'd go for:

Lancaster - Head Coach
Rowntree - Scrum/Forwards Coach (not broken so don't fix it)
Gustard - Defence/Assistant Forwards Coach (same role he has at Sarries)
Mauger - Backs/Attack Coach (did the job part time at Tigers in 2009 and we played some rather good stuff but maintained the pragmatic approach we are famous for).

If Sarries play hard ball over Gustard's contract then bring in Ellis as purely a defence coach. If Mauger is unavailable then bring in Austin Healey (Brian Ashton was due to appoint him he got sacked).

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im an ambitious guy

Im just not sold on Gray. Its the same as Robson at SR...they might be playing well...but just think in SA we need power aswell as skills.....

Whilst Youngs isnt a massive guy either he plays it physically...and the other two do aswell...and all have good ball carrying abilities..which will be needed.

Baptism of fire most definately...but i really think they could be finds...

Especially with Corbs and Cole raising their games....

Although under your selection policy we wouldnt have Corbs or Cole would we?

I think the point on power is right, but if that applies to Gray it applies to Youngs. Yes, he's aggressive, but he's still very light for a hooker, and a fair bit lighter than Gray - who also has the benefit of having played there much longer. I think Brooker might be a better option. Less dynamic than both but more of an impact and still good in the loose.

George - i really don't see it. He looks worryingly podgy and has never made the 2 shirt his own. Yes, he's got some great guys to learn off at Sarries, but what has he learnt? Not enough to regularly displace them. He has never done anything to convince me he is anything but a middling player hyped up because he's a) young and b) various Saracens grandees have told people he'll be a great player. Fine, but they said that about Saull, and although he has time, he's hardly set the world alight. For me George is nowhere near an England call up, and nor should he be. Mike Haywood would be a much better bet in my opinion, although i think he's injured.

Lindsay is a huge bloke, and looks pretty good carrying but his awareness is shocking (never looks up, just head down bosh) and his throwing is still, woeful. Maybe take him for week games but he is miles off still i think. I think, physically, he could handle it, but technically? i'm not convinced.

I think the point on power is right, but if that applies to Gray it applies to Youngs

Youngs is heavier than Brits despite being several inchs shorter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Youngs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schalk_Brits

Youngs may not be the heaviest hooker going but he's very good in the scrum and only goes forward in the loose. His physicality and ball carrying skills are not what will hold him back from international honours. Now if he can show his lineout skills are up to standard and finish as the first choice at Tigers he'll be ready for the tour, if not, then Saxons at most until next season.

Good analysis Hood...

What would your options at 2 be IF Hartley is banned...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

aside from not taking Wood and Robshaw to the RWC

Wood went but Robshaw did not. Wood's form just wasn't that good (mind you neither was Moody's).

What would your ideal coaching team be?

I've posted this elsewhere, I'd go for:

Lancaster - Head Coach
Rowntree - Scrum/Forwards Coach (not broken so don't fix it)
Gustard - Defence/Assistant Forwards Coach (same role he has at Sarries)
Mauger - Backs/Attack Coach (did the job part time at Tigers in 2009 and we played some rather good stuff but maintained the pragmatic approach we are famous for).

If Sarries play hard ball over Gustard's contract then bring in Ellis as purely a defence coach. If Mauger is unavailable then bring in Austin Healey (Brian Ashton was due to appoint him he got sacked).

Although i appear to be one of very few people who would like a Head Coach with more experience, as Lancaster is almost certain to get the job, i'd be OK with that.

Although, i would like Ellis or Gustard purely as a defence coach and a separate forwards coach. I still feel we need someone who can get us rucking low, at pace and PAST the ball some distance. It's how the ABs generate quick ball and we need to look at providing quick ball with space ( i realise we are not the ABs but reach for the stars, eh?!). I'm not convinced any of the coaches above can do that. I'd love us to poach someone like Jono Gibbes from Leinster and have him working alongside Rowntree and Ellis.

I think Healey may be too divisive a figure. Shame, very knowledgeable when he's focused on that, you'd just need to gag him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good analysis Hood...

What would your options at 2 be IF Hartley is banned...

Hmm, fair point. I do make a habit of listing the things i think we shouldn't do without providing any alternatives!

You know what, i think Brooker. It's a helluva place to get a first cap but we have that situation with whoever. I'd have Gray on the bench. Brooker throws fairly well, has come on leaps and bounds in the loose, and is fairly big so ok in the tight. Gray, as you say, might get mullered, and Lindsay's throwing is suspect. I think Youngs, George etc may need more game time.

So i think Brooker to start, Gray on the bench and Lindsay to start in the midweek games. There are midweek games, right? I think whoever we pick will have a pretty torrid time, but hopefully they'll benefit in the long-term.

On other issues i think we need Garvey, Launchbury and Attwood to get game time in the tests. If we're looking for a big physical presence in the 2nd row who is also pretty mobile, and we should be, these guys are the obvious choice for me. Particularly the first two who seem on decent form. Again, they may get smashed, but i think they could do will learning NOW exactly what it takes to compete at this level.

Hood83

You must have missed Brooker's injury against Newcastle (sorry if it's been mentioned and I just didn't see it).

He's dislocated his knee. Out for a long time.

Although, i would like Ellis or Gustard purely as a defence coach and a separate forwards coach.

I'd have Ellis as purely a defence coach but Gustard is responsible for the Sarries lineout (which is excellent) and has got their backrow in that 'wolf pack' mindset. Sarries defence is now so good it's actually an attacking weapon. I think the combination of him and his old team mate Rowntree would create a truely horrible pack to play against. This is why I want Mauger as the backs coach, Brian Smith couldn't do the job because the forwards and backs couldn't link. Mauger has previously overseen backs divisions that play with horrible packs, first at Tigers in 2009 and then working with Canterbury more recently. The rumours are he wants to return to coach in the NH (I'm hoping England or Tigers).

Lancaster seems astute enough to be able to oversee this and has the players believing in the team spirit and playing for each other. I think it could work.

Agree that Austin would be a trial on the patience but keep him away from interviews and he knows his stuff and once again he knows how to link an agressive forward pack to a backs division. There's no point playing silky stuff outwide if the defence and forwards aren't equipped to keep up, better to be pragmatic and keep getting over the gainline, preferably by more than simple crash ball.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think the point on power is right, but if that applies to Gray it applies to Youngs

Youngs is heavier than Brits despite being several inchs shorter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Youngs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schalk_Brits

Youngs may not be the heaviest hooker going but he's very good in the scrum and only goes forward in the loose. His physicality and ball carrying skills are not what will hold him back from international honours. Now if he can show his lineout skills are up to standard and finish as the first choice at Tigers he'll be ready for the tour, if not, then Saxons at most until next season.

That's pretty interesting formerly, i knew Brits was relatively light but that seems VERY light. He is an exception to the rule though surely? From the little i've seen Youngs looked much better than Chuter, which may not mean much these days but is still an accomplishment. His scrummaging was surprisingly good i'd agree, and his throwing. I think he fits into the S Armitage sort of area - he can look very good, aggressive and dynamic, but when the game slows down and it's all about the tight against a giant SA pack, he might get found out.

Still, i can see the argument for taking him. I'd hope he gets a lot more games before then though.

thomh wrote:Hood83

You must have missed Brooker's injury against Newcastle (sorry if it's been mentioned and I just didn't see it).

He's dislocated his knee. Out for a long time.

Ahhh man, pants, i hadn't seen that thomh no, thanks.

Hmm, well i guess Gray then *gulp* I think he's the next best option because with Lindsay i could see our LO go to pot.

I'd agree with other posters though that he may get a bit of a hiding. I think he'd have to play with a big second row who are willing to do a lot of carrying and some serious lumps either side of him. I think with Marler next to him the scrum might creak a bit. Still, Marler is improving *bites finger nails*

I'd be tempted to take Mears, Paice, Lindsay. All have experience at Saxons + and provide different skillets. Lindsay has bags of potential and deserves a look at. Gray is another I like the look of and could go instead of Mears possibly.

I've made this point to death, but Marler's scrummaging is very good these days. Quins have struggled to get their offloading game going since December (presumably down largely to soft grounds), and our scrum has actually ended up being our main weapon in the last few games. Marler got MOM against Worcester, and won the equalising penalty at Newcastle.

I'd be wary of putting Marler and Gray together at international level, as neither is particularly massive, but Marler is technically pretty sound these days.

I'm no Wasps fan but what I've seen of them Lindsay's throw has looked straighter than Webber's this season. Seen TL have a right stinker last year but has looked steady with Wentzal calling the shots.

OK heres one guys:

Dawidiuk is listed as 5'11 and 14st'11

Youngs and Brits and Gray all around 6' and 16st

The others Hartley, George, Lindsay etc...come in around 6' and 17+

Edit: Bismark is listed as 6'2 and 17'11

Do you think at this level that extra stone is a necesity, handy or not paticularly relevant...

I think it helps to have that added weight in the scrum GF. I know it doesn't always equal physicality but I think all the 3 of the bigger hooks are better scrummages (perhaps wrongly)

I take it the hooker debate has been removed?! And after I posted all of that write up

In summation Hooker wise I would take:

Chuter, George, Dawiduk - I think some first team players should get a rest, but as I pointed out above I don't think they will.

It just got me thinking.

I've always tended (in the forwards) to prefer the bigger guy. But even at my local club...i have seen cases where a smaller guy could be far more powerful...so i guess size isnt a key issue initially...it depends on their style of game.

I take it the hooker debate has been removed?! And after I posted all of that write up

Nah its still there...we're just debating everything on here

Chuter? Very surprised with that choice Chjw

And another one....does Garvey match his hype? or is it based on one barnstorming run?

According to Gullivers Travels:



England Rubgy Tour to South Africa 2012 Schedule


Date Match Venue

Saturday 9 June	South Africa v England 1st Test	Mr Price Kings Park, Durban
Saturday 16 June	South Africa v England 2nd Test	Coca Cola Park, Johannesburg
Saturday 23 June	South Africa v England 3rd Test	Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

thomh wrote:I've made this point to death, but Marler's scrummaging is very good these days. Quins have struggled to get their offloading game going since December (presumably down largely to soft grounds), and our scrum has actually ended up being our main weapon in the last few games. Marler got MOM against Worcester, and won the equalising penalty at Newcastle.

I'd be wary of putting Marler and Gray together at international level, as neither is particularly massive, but Marler is technically pretty sound these days.

Fair point, he has improved a lot and i was trying to make that point. I'm just not sure it's international quality yet, but i guess we'll never know if we don't try him!

He's got games against Saracens, Leicester and Toulon to come this season. If he holds up well in them then I can see him getting a shot off the bench this summer.

Youngs and Brits and Gray all around 6' and 16st

Youngs is 5 foot 9. This is I think is where his power comes from. He has a touch of pace (former centre) and is 16 stone of stocky muscle when he hits contact he does so with force. If he was 6 foot with long legs it would be easy to take him down but because he's stocky and only 5 foot 9 it's harder to go low on him when he drops the shoulder and hence he tends to make a metre or two in traffic. Great barnstorming run (obsurdly cut from the highlights I notice) late on vs Saints where he burst through two defenders down the outside of a ruck and took two more to drag him down a metre short. It's the lineout work that needs sharpening as against SA it has to be good or they'll steal ball all day long.

I've always tended (in the forwards) to prefer the bigger guy. But even at my local club...i have seen cases where a smaller guy could be far more powerful...so i guess size isnt a key issue initially...it depends on their style of game.

The best tackler I've ever played with was 5 foot 4 and 10 stone wet through. He went low and hacked the big guys down at knee height as they tried to run him over.

GeordieFalcon wrote:And another one....does Garvey match his hype? or is it based on one barnstorming run?

I honestly think i missed the barnstorming run! It's a fair question. From what i've seen the main attribute he offers is ball-carrying. Every game i've seen him in he's carried endlessly, in fact to the point i felt LI were overusing him. Accept perhaps on one occasion, he made ground and took 2 players to bring him down. I haven't seen other locks in the Prem do that so consistently. it sounds a minor point but his presentation of the ball is also impeccable

A lot of people have also talked up his work-rate in defence. I haven't seen so much of that, but he's no slouch and more than a big lump. Obviously difficult to say but i think the hype is based on some solid, consistent performances in a team that has, in my opinion, been under-performing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Chuter? Very surprised with that choice Chjw

Yes yes I know I wouldn't necessarily have him in there out of pure choice if everyone were fit. Put it this way though:

Hypothetically speaking at the moment Hartley might be unavailable. That leaves only Lee Mears and GC with any substantial experience at international level. In taking two other rookie guys, i'd want someone in there to either start and/or tutor the younger ones in what will be an incredibly hostile environment.

Mears, for me is a bit undersized in the scrum particularly against SA. Thus GC was the only logical choice for me. It's a matter of support rather than out and out elite playing ability. It's a sad state of affairs that we're in this position, but after Thompson got injured it was always going to be a struggle for strength in depth.

As with so much of our squad it appears there is a lack of depth in some positions of guys in the 24-27 range waiting to cement a place in the starting XV!

GeordieFalcon wrote:OK heres one guys:

Dawidiuk is listed as 5'11 and 14st'11

Youngs and Brits and Gray all around 6' and 16st

The others Hartley, George, Lindsay etc...come in around 6' and 17+

Edit: Bismark is listed as 6'2 and 17'11

Do you think at this level that extra stone is a necesity, handy or not paticularly relevant...

Perhaps it's simply the old 'a good big 'un beats a good little 'un' - i say Lindsay listed as 6'3 and 19 stone somewhere (?!)

GeordieFalcon wrote:And another one....does Garvey match his hype? or is it based on one barnstorming run?

I know what you're driving at Geordie, but he genuinely is a real find at SR. LI have played him at 6 on occasion but he's an out and out SR for me. His carrying is excellent and his awareness is also good. If you check the LI v Blues HEC games (I think it was Blues?!) he was also all over the place in defence and chasing, doing very well to get into those positions for such a heavy guy.

I'd say Dawiduk looks an awful lot heavier than 14st 11, that's Foden's sort of weight!

If so he does incredibly well for giving away such a weight advantage. What does Mears come in at then?

Ok what about Second Rows. Who would you take?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok what about Second Rows. Who would you take?

Courtney Lawes
Dave Attwood
Matt Garvey
Geoff Parling
Mouritz Botha
Ed Slater


It would probably require the inclusion of Tom Croft or Tom Wood (who is also very good in the line out too).

I am one of those who believes the hype about Garvey, he seems to make ground literally ever time he carries.

Ed Slater could help cover the back row too.

I think Croft is a critical issue.

IF he plays...then he is a key lineout presence...but it also means we lack the traditional power coming from 6. So we need to make sure at least one of our SR's is a serious physical presence not just at scrum / ruck time, but ball carrying aswell.

Garvey would appear to be that man...is Attwood?

Im not sure Lawes is the answer for me. Whilst i would take him on tour I think other players are ahead of him. Parling and Kitchener as a lineout presence, and Garvey, Attwood and Slater as the more physical player.

Im not sure Lawes knows what type of player he is...or wants to be...

I just said on another thread I'd love to see Garvey get a run out as we need a bit more dog

Im not sure Lawes knows what type of player he is...or wants to be...[/quote]

I agree with this, i think it comes from playing so much at blindside. lawes couldnt get into the saints second row while juandre kruger was at the club.

Wasp...i take it that would be in place of Botha...and playing alongside Parling?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Croft is a critical issue.

IF he plays...then he is a key lineout presence...but it also means we lack the traditional power coming from 6. So we need to make sure at least one of our SR's is a serious physical presence not just at scrum / ruck time, but ball carrying aswell.

Garvey would appear to be that man...is Attwood?

Im not sure Lawes is the answer for me. Whilst i would take him on tour I think other players are ahead of him. Parling and Kitchener as a lineout presence, and Garvey, Attwood and Slater as the more physical player.

Im not sure Lawes knows what type of player he is...or wants to be...

Lawes's carrying can be good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIl4YDyulM0

But he is a little lightweight for an enforcer. So it has to be decided... Do you want him to bulk up further and loose some of that athleticism? Or do you want him to become a lineout operator who is a relatively good carrier, exceptional tackler/ cover tackler with very good hands and the ability to quickly get around the pitch? Seems a no brainier to me.