best u20 players in each position british and irish only

First topic message reminder :

who do you think are best u20 players coming through and what would your u20 lions style look like?

how is Matthew Morgan not number 10 ill never no. George North is obviously been forgotten and jonathan evans isnt the best under 20 scrum-half in wales let alone Britain. Rhodri William for the scarlets is a better recommendation. these are just welsh suggestions. and isnt than Dan Thomas, the welsh number 7, been superb.

Because Paddy Jackson is better. Also this is players who are playing in the u20s tournament, so North/Hogg etc don't count.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Because Paddy Jackson is better. Also this is players who are playing in the u20s tournament, so North/Hogg etc don't count.

with respect to paddy jackson, i have seen them both play and i have no doubt in my mind whos the better player. im not been nationalist when i say this, but Matthew Morgan is a very very talented player. however he is in the same category as North/Hogg so i suppose your right with paddy at number 10

Morgan has looked alright each time I have seen.. not great though. Then again he is young.

So we are saying that Paddy Jackson is a better player than George Ford? Or Tom Heathcote, who started a HC game at FH away at Lyon this season?

gowales wrote:Its obviously u20 players that are playing now.
George Ford is unavailable because hes playing for Leicester

Ford is still in the current U20 squad. He played the first game of the tournamnet, just returning to Tigers this week because there was an AP game he was required for. He'll be available for the rest of the U20 fixtures possibly bar the Wales game, which is the only other game that clashes with an AP fixture.

geoff998rugby wrote:To be clear I was only considering players playing for the U20 teams not others. As such Spencer was not in my consideration.

Spencer was in the initial U20 squad announced last month, but a late call up to the Saxons squad after Micky Young was cited. As there are no more Saxons games, he will be up for selection for the rest of the U20 tournament. In fact, he was selected in the team for the game against Italy postponed at the weekend.

I think we need to be objective about this. George Ford has got a wikipedia page. Paddy Jackson doesn't. I think that clears that up

HammerofThunor wrote:I think we need to be objective about this. George Ford has got a wikipedia page. Paddy Jackson doesn't. I think that clears that up

You wrote is wikipedia page didn't you

No. Never done nuffin on Wikipedia. Wouldn't know how (don't you have to provide evidence of experience/qualifications on the matter?)

HammerofThunor wrote:I think we need to be objective about this. George Ford has got a wikipedia page. Paddy Jackson doesn't. I think that clears that up

I can't seem to find Spencer's

Paddy Jackson has been poor for Ireland U20s I think.

As wikipedia is the source of all knowledge I have to agree with Hammer on this one. Of course it does help that he is also the best player, though I will say the argument of who is better between him and Morgan is one that I see continuing for a long time to come and its great that there are two such talented youngsters coming through the ranks. I haven't seen Jackson play so couldn't comment on him

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's better youngsters playing in England than Ben Spencer tbh never mind the rest of the BI&I. Spencer looks ok playing behind a dominant pack and box kicking to his hearts content but offers nothing around the fringes.

Name the scrum halves in England that are in his age group better in your opinion.

Ben Spencer was picked for the Saxons. Scored tries vs Biarritz and the Wolfhounds.

He might not be as flashy as some of his counterparts but he has ice cool composure. Makes very few errors. Gives good service. He does his job well as a scrum half in my opinion.

I personally favour substance over style. I know many don't.

profitius wrote:Paddy Jackson has been poor for Ireland U20s I think.

His game play has been excellent but his place kicking has been poor.

HammerofThunor wrote:I think we need to be objective about this. George Ford has got a wikipedia page. Paddy Jackson doesn't. I think that clears that up

Hahaha! Oh my God though, that is so true. Everything of meaning does have a dedicated wikipedia page...it speaks volumes if someone/something doesn't have one.

beshocked wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:To be clear I was only considering players playing for the U20 teams not others. As such Spencer was not in my consideration.

The top posts don't make entirely clear which it is.

Having said that English players tend to make the breakthrough earlier than Irish players. Whilst this clearly gives them a head start in terms of experience it does not, in the long term, make them better players.

Oh ok I apologise.

The way I saw it, this includes those players who are U20 so potentially you could have tom prydie and george north on the wings.

True alex germany. The English players seem to be imperious at U20s but find the step up harder. They normally sparkle at the beginning but fade into mediocrity. E.g. Youngs,Care,Cipriani, Tait - all bright starts and prospects but all have floundered.

Even the likes of Cato,Mercey and Gray who you would think would push on haven't.

The likes of JSD,Morgan,Abendanon never seem to have got those opportunities at international level.

E.g. the Welsh seem to love throwing youngsters into the international cauldron at any opportunity. Like North,Halfpenny,Faletau,Prydie etc.

Faded into mediocrity? Youngs is only 22 and an integral part of the England squad. He's had a bad run of form following his injury, but it's a little early to write him off don't you think? Danny Care again is only 25 and has 32 caps and if he hadn't been a complete tube, he would be in the squad ahead of Dickson. Cipriani is an odd one, he is (or was) starting flyhalf for a super 15 side, I still think he'll come back to England a better player. Matt Tait I'll give you, but I think it is more down to injuries than coaching, he's basically missed the last 2-3 years of rugby because of them.

People don't seem to mention the players England have brought through from the U20's in the last 4-5 years, the likes of Alex Corbisiero (2008), Dan Cole (2007), Courtney Lawes (2008), Ben Youngs (2008), Manu Tuilagi (2010). They aren't 'world class' or whatever, but they are all still very young and have the potential to become this. These will be supplemented with guys like Joe Marler and Charlie Sharples on the edge of the squad.

Cumbrian wrote:

beshocked wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:To be clear I was only considering players playing for the U20 teams not others. As such Spencer was not in my consideration.

The top posts don't make entirely clear which it is.

Having said that English players tend to make the breakthrough earlier than Irish players. Whilst this clearly gives them a head start in terms of experience it does not, in the long term, make them better players.

Oh ok I apologise.

The way I saw it, this includes those players who are U20 so potentially you could have tom prydie and george north on the wings.

True alex germany. The English players seem to be imperious at U20s but find the step up harder. They normally sparkle at the beginning but fade into mediocrity. E.g. Youngs,Care,Cipriani, Tait - all bright starts and prospects but all have floundered.

Even the likes of Cato,Mercey and Gray who you would think would push on haven't.

The likes of JSD,Morgan,Abendanon never seem to have got those opportunities at international level.

E.g. the Welsh seem to love throwing youngsters into the international cauldron at any opportunity. Like North,Halfpenny,Faletau,Prydie etc.

Faded into mediocrity? Youngs is only 22 and an integral part of the England squad. He's had a bad run of form following his injury, but it's a little early to write him off don't you think? Danny Care again is only 25 and has 32 caps and if he hadn't been a complete tube, he would be in the squad ahead of Dickson. Cipriani is an odd one, he is (or was) starting flyhalf for a super 15 side, I still think he'll come back to England a better player. Matt Tait I'll give you, but I think it is more down to injuries than coaching, he's basically missed the last 2-3 years of rugby because of them.

People don't seem to mention the players England have brought through from the U20's in the last 4-5 years, the likes of Alex Corbisiero (2008), Dan Cole (2007), Courtney Lawes (2008), Ben Youngs (2008), Manu Tuilagi (2010). They aren't 'world class' or whatever, but they are all still very young and have the potential to become this. These will be supplemented with guys like Joe Marler and Charlie Sharples on the edge of the squad.

Cumbrian I mean that both Youngs and Care had very bright starts to their international careers. After that they have floundered spectacularly. Youngs poor run of form has gone on for some time.

Basically these two players went from looking world class to looking poor on the international stage. They might well recover but till then....

Cipriani burst onto the rugby scene which his eye catching HC final performance vs Leicester and his demolition of Ireland in the 6 nations. Since then he has floundered - becoming notorious for giving the opposition numerous chargedowns, his poor defence and interceptions.

All these players could bounce back but at the moment all are in the shade.

I think it's this level of expectation that is the problem though. As a nation we are far too quick to bin or write off players who've had a bad run (I'm not accusing you of this).

I would argue Youngs hasn't foundered spectacularly though. He's not been great, but the Italy game aside he's never put in a Mauro Bergamasco-esque performance. It's difficult to judge Care because it's been a while since I've seen him in the international shirt, but he's been pretty good for Quins hasn't he?

Cumbrian the difference is that Mauro Bergamasco is not a scrum half!

Youngs has been awful for England in his last 3-4 games. His last decent performance was his off the bench cameo against a tiring Argentina.

Scrum half is such a pivotal position. England can't afford Youngs to be awful for a sustainable period. It slows down the whole side.

I have confidence that Youngs can re find his form but he needs to rekindle that spark that got him his England spot in the first place. When he first played for England he was lively and was dangerous. Now he just looks flat,sluggish and a bit like a headless chicken (not knowing where the ball is).

Just look at his performance in the 2010 GP Final compared to the 2011 AP final to see what Youngs was like and what he's more like now.

I am not writing anyone off but they need to convince me they are good enough to get back in the England side.

Youngs need to be rested - the Ben Youngs I say at Ravenhill, in January, in rugby terms, was close to a mental melt down.

The guy needs to be taken out of the firing line

HammerofThunor wrote:I think we need to be objective about this. George Ford has got a wikipedia page. Paddy Jackson doesn't. I think that clears that up

Total nonsense of course but a Good one

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian the difference is that Mauro Bergamasco is not a scrum half!

Youngs has been awful for England in his last 3-4 games. His last decent performance was his off the bench cameo against a tiring Argentina.

Scrum half is such a pivotal position. England can't afford Youngs to be awful for a sustainable period. It slows down the whole side.

I have confidence that Youngs can re find his form but he needs to rekindle that spark that got him his England spot in the first place. When he first played for England he was lively and was dangerous. Now he just looks flat,sluggish and a bit like a headless chicken (not knowing where the ball is).

Just look at his performance in the 2010 GP Final compared to the 2011 AP final to see what Youngs was like and what he's more like now.

I am not writing anyone off but they need to convince me they are good enough to get back in the England side.

The Bergamasco comment was meant to be tongue in cheek... To be honest, I'd agree that he should be benched for the next game. I'd just hate to seem him treated the way Tait was when things didn't work out straight away.

Youngs has been ok but not as good ad we all know he can be, to say hes been awful is a little stupid tbh.

He's a real talent but out of sorts, a spell on the bench will do him no harm. I'd still have him well ahead of players like Simpson etc

To go back to the original point of the article, I’d put the following players forward (from an England point of view) for being arguably best in their position in this year’s U20 tournament.

01. Luke Cowan-Dickie
03. Kyle Sinkler
07. Matt Kvesic

10. George Ford
13. Elliot Daly
14. Marland Yarde

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs has been ok but not as good ad we all know he can be, to say hes been awful is a little stupid tbh.

He's a real talent but out of sorts, a spell on the bench will do him no harm. I'd still have him well ahead of players like Simpson etc

Not stupid at all. Youngs has been awful. The guardian ratings are generally pretty accurate. They gave him 4/10 vs Scotland, 3/10 vs Italy. I agree with them.

He is a talent but he's woefully out of form.

Cumbrian how many games should Youngs be given?

Agree Geoff.

Well if the Guardian says Youngs has been awful that must be the case

beshocked wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs has been ok but not as good ad we all know he can be, to say hes been awful is a little stupid tbh.

He's a real talent but out of sorts, a spell on the bench will do him no harm. I'd still have him well ahead of players like Simpson etc

Not stupid at all. Youngs has been awful. The guardian ratings are generally pretty accurate. They gave him 4/10 vs Scotland, 3/10 vs Italy. I agree with them.

He is a talent but he's woefully out of form.

Cumbrian how many games should Youngs be given?

Agree Geoff.

I'd have him benching for the rest of the tournament, give him a chance to come off the bench and mix things up so he can recover that spark. He can then concentrate on his club form for 3-4 months and we can see where he's at going into the SA summer tour.

Sgt pooly no it's not just the guardian. It's common knowledge that Youngs has been poor. Only need to have watched England vs Scotland twice and Italy to know that.

Cumbrian agree with that. Youngs needs to work with Flood.

I obviously watched the games or I wouldn't be putting an opinion across. He's played ok but not well...I fail to see how he's been dreadful.

I think people just tend to jump on the bandwagon on here. I fail to see how he's played any worse than say Farrell who apart from nailing his goals has contributed zero.

Youngs has been dreadful because his box kicks were awful, his service was sluggish and downright awful, made school boy errors one of which led to an Italian try, couldn't keep his eyes on the ball. Didn't use any of his supposed strengths like upping the tempo and sniping runs.


Farrell only contributed 15 points. 5/5 100% kicking which won England the game against Italy.

Of course Farrell did nothing.

If Italy had swapped goalkickers with England, Italy would have won.

Bit of a joke if you think Youngs did better than Farrell. Farrell is also only a 20 year old, making his debut in the 6 nations whereas Youngs is virtually a veteran in comparison.

You fail to understand that Farrell converted the efforts made by the forwards into points. I think they would have been very grateful of his contribution.

It boosts morale when your kicker turns hard work and opportunities into points.

Also for such a young man like Farrell to nail kicks in tough conditions and high stakes games takes incredible mental strength.

As I stated APART from kicking his goals Farrell has contributed very little. I also didn't say Youngs had played better, just no worse.

Farrell is such a poor centre, he should be nowhere near an England jersey.

Sgt pooly you don't understand do you? The kicking of his goals is very important. It's what makes Farrell such an impressive asset. He has shown he's a world class goal kicker. He needs to work on his attacking abilities but his defence is strong but his kicking is excellent. Only 20 too.

Farrell is such a poor centre? Based on what? What exactly has he done wrong? You could say there's lack of creativity in midfield but that's what happens when you play 2 12s in the centres. Farrell plays for the English champions, the best side in England. He's a lot better than you think. Just jealousy I feel.

You're wrong though. Youngs has played worse.

I'm not wrong I just disagree with you. Farrell would struggle to get in any other 6N side.

You are wrong but it matters not.

You really think so? Farrell would certainly get in to the Italian and Scottish sides. Definitely into the Italian one just to have someone who can actually kick penalties.

Maybe not Ireland,France and Wales admittedly.

I'd take Lamont over Farrell every time....I'm not wrong, I just have a more educated opinion than yourself, no worries.

Lamont over Farrell... really?

More educated opinion? Ha, I doubt that. Keep telling yourself that.

Lamont is a winger not an inside centre.

You're not Andy Robinson in disguise are you?

I can't really take your opinion seriously.

And I care.....

Youngs need to be rested - the Ben Youngs I say at Ravenhill, in January, in rugby terms, was close to a mental melt down.

Same Ben Youngs that created Tigers only score of the game? Losing his rag in the second half because of a mixture of the ref and a frankly inept performance by his forward pack was expected. I lost my rag over that second half as well. I see no point in England continuing to select him, there is no attacking intent from the England coaches who seem to want to play percentages and territory in which case selecting Ben Youngs is a waste. Better to send him back to Tigers where he can work on his game in an enviroment that suits him. England need to pick the best team available not the best players available and that may well mean Paul Hodgson or another defensive minded 9.

You really think so? Farrell would certainly get in to the Italian and Scottish sides

Why? Italy wouldn't want him as a 12, maybe as a 10 to replace their kick happy Mr Burton. Scotland have decided they want to play a dynamic running game which would make Farrell rather useless. He is neither powerful with ball in hand, a creative passer or quick so would be no use at 10 or 12 unless Scotland wanted an improved version of Dan Parks. Maybe Ireland could use him if Sexton still has issues kicking all his points as D'Arcy isn't much cop these days.

Farrell is the exact sort of player Ireland DON'T want thank you very much. Not saying he is a bad player, but no.

Seems quite a few people fail to take your opinion seriously Beshocked

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Because Paddy Jackson is better.

Now I've seen everything!

Aw Morgan give it a rest and clear off will ye. You think you would have learnt from your ban. I'm not getting into an argument with you.

Shame it's been restricted to under 20s players otherwise a backline like this would be brutal;

9.Rhodri Williams (young Scarlets 9)/Ben Spencer - pretty close
10.George Ford
11.George North
12.Owen Farrell
13.Manu Tuilagi
14.Marlon Yarde
15.whateverhisfirstnameis Hogg

formerly known as Sam wrote:Shame it's been restricted to under 20s players otherwise a backline like this would be brutal;

9.Rhodri Williams (young Scarlets 9)/Ben Spencer - pretty close
10.George Ford
11.George North
12.Owen Farrell
13.Manu Tuilagi
14.Marlon Yarde
15.whateverhisfirstnameis Hogg

Stuart

So Scotland, England and Wales all have players who are U20 playing for them while Ireland's youngest is 21/22 I think. Interesting..

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Because Paddy Jackson is better.

Now I've seen everything!

Well the Welsh 10 against Ireland was second best to Jackson in their head to head so Rory's claimn is a reasonable one .

They were talking about Matthew Morgan who wasn't playing in that game.

And I still stand by what I said. Morgan hasn't shown anything to prove he is a great player yet, IMO. He looks good. But that is about the height of it so far.

Sgt Pooly sure. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Sam always disagrees with me anyway. We have differing views on both Farrell and Youngs. Hardly surprising because of our club loyalties.

Sam is always making excuses for Youngs. It's never his fault - it's either the weather,the ball, the ref, his own team, the opposition's fault or the gameplan etc.

Sam you just disagree with me for the sake of it don't you?