606v2 Featherweight rankings

Only three more to go but for the sake of balance have decided that the results wont be posted until we have at least 15 votes for each one, every person who does vote will be mentioned in the disclaimer at the bottom of the article.

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Dundee
6. Driscoll
7. Armstrong
8. Saldivar
9. Arguello
10. Nelson
11. Hamed
12. Gomez
13. Chocolate
14. Kilbane
15. Mcgovern


Included in this are the super bantamweights hence Gomez's lofty position

1) Saddler 2) Pep 3) Sanchez 4) Armstrong 5) Saldivar 6) Miller 7) Kilbane 8) Nelson 9) Pedroza 10) Attell 11) Driscoll 12) Gomez 13) Young Griffo 14) Kid Chocolate 15) Arguello

A lot of competition here. Thought about Morales, Barrera and Hamed, not to mention Dundee, Dixon, McGovern (too many of his fights stank to high heaven) and Canzoneri, but they all just miss out. Attell was one lucky s.o.b. to hold his title as long as he did, and if I could, I'd stick him even lower. Gomez has to be here, by virtue of his dominance at 122.

1) Willie Pep
2) Sandy Saddler
3) Salvador Sanchez
4) George Dixon
5) Vicente Saldivar
6) Eusebio Pedroza
7) Abe Attell
8) Freddie Miller
9) Henry Armstrong
10) Azumah Nelson
11) Wilfredo Gomez
12) Terry McGovern
13) Jim Driscoll
14) Johnny Kilbane
15) Naseem Hamed

Difficult rating Gomez, but his 122 lb reign was so good he probably deserves a place on the cusp of the top ten. Armstrong is, I feel, underrated as a Featherweight. Never defended the title after winning it, but he did defeat just about every top Featherweight around in the mid to late thirties; beating Arizmendi (eventually), Bass, Sarron, Belloise and Wolgast at the weight make him worthy of a fairly high placing, for me.

Another tough list, though. Sugar Ramos perhaps unlucky to miss out.

Chris. I've not done my list yet but I'm stunned to see Nas on your's like you I think he was immensely talented and unfairly tagged as a guy who lost to the first good fighter he thought then ran away. Can't help think Israel Vasquez and Raphael Marquez would get the nod ahead of Nas for me maybe not on talent but on record.

I've not posted on any of the other one's is it OK for me to do this one?

Kev, I feel that Hamed's record at 126 lb is fairly underrated. There was a period of, at the very least, three years where he was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the number one Featherweight on the planet, and in recent times it's not often that anyone has such recognition for that long.

Hamed did lose to the very best fighter he faced in Barrera, but then again he's not alone in this regard (Dixon was put to the sword by McGovern, for example). Before that, he'd effectively won every version of the title that was available (save for boxing politics) and, in the shape of Vasquez (a very underrated win), Johnson, Kelley, Soto, McCullough and Bungu, had dealt with some seriously impressive opposition, often in very fine style.

I can see the appeal in putting the likes of Griffo and Chocolate ahead of him, but I put a fair amount of emphasis on being a truly dominant champion, as well as consistency. In both of these areas, Hamed scores very highly. Top fifteen Featherweight for me, but that's just how I see it.

Like I said mate I've not done mine yet was just surprised to see him rated so highly.

I pulled Vasquez and Marquez out the air as two modern day fighters who might make my list but splitting they two isn't easy.

I think the problem with Nas is a lot of people remember him as a clown rather than the fine talent he was. Shame we never got to see more of him. Around the time of his retirement the 126lbs and 130lbs were very strong with MAB, Morales, JMM, Gatti, Castillo, Pac and even FMJ aside from the latter he would not have been found wanting against any of them imo.

Naz was boss mate, but Barrera was better so he should be ahead of Naz. Naz should be top 5 tho.

Top 5 is a bit generous imo. Extremely talented but doesn't have the record to get in my top 10 tbh.

Like the top 3 and would like to see Naz in the top 10 but i don't think I know enough about feather history to chuck a list in...

Always thought Eusebio was overrated....Think he drew with Laporte and got a gift against Taylor If memory serves correct and beat sack all else..

1. Pep
2. Sanchez
3. Saddler
4. Saldivar
5. Armstrong
6. Miller
7. Nelson
8. Kilbane
9. Attell
10. Pedroza
11. Hamed
12. Driscoll
13. Chocolate
14. Gomez
15. Arguello

Naz was pure class and I reckon he would most of the guys on that list. How can Barrera not be there when he beat Naz makes no sense to me.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Like the top 3 and would like to see Naz in the top 10 but i don't think I know enough about feather history to chuck a list in...

Always thought Eusebio was overrated....Think he drew with Laporte and got a gift against Taylor If memory serves correct and beat sack all else..

If memory serves me correct he beat Chris's Grandad.

Waingro, would you also put Mike Spinks ahead of Larry Holmes in the Heavyweight rankings because he won when they met? Of course not. Barrera did beat Hamed, yes - but on the whole, he didn't achieve anywhere near as much as Hamed did at Featherweight. Barrera might make the low end of a top twenty, mind.

As for Pedroza, I feel he's worth a high ranking. Not all that many opponents really stand out, but like Louis at Heavyweight or Foster at 175 lb, he earns his spot through consistency and the quality of his reign. La Porte, Kobayashi, Olivares, Lockridge and Taylor isn't as shabby as some seem to think in that respect, anyway. Also performed very admirably (while probably a little shopworn) in losing his title - much more admirably than the likes of Pep (first time out), Dixon and so on. Horses for courses, but I think he's a nailed-on top ten man, and towards the mid places of that top ten to boot.

Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

1 Pep
2 Saddler
3 Sanchez
4 Attell
5 Dundee
6 Saldivar
7 Armstrong
8 Chocolate
9 Driscoll
10 Kilbane
11 Nelson
12 Pedroza
13 Gomez
14 Hamed
15 Griffo


Not getting any easier these lists.

No indeed, Jeff, and you've got so discombobulated that you've left out Sanchez! It's unbelievably easy to do, I've discovered....

Would pretend I meant it captain but even I would have all on to argue that one, slot him in at three and move ev ereryone down one, bad news for Freddie Miller it would appear.

List has now been edited to make it easier for ghosty to collate

difficult to know where to put people, and i saw nelson in the super feather lists... but he had a longer, though less active reign at feather than sanchez.

Sal is the toughest to place, because he died so young... no doubt his short reign was packed with quality though.

Would have loved to have seen a rematch with a less green nelson a few years down the stretch

Are you ahving a bubble>>>> call me biased but stopped reading when i realised Azumah Nelson was not in the top ten...... then the whole process lost any credibility when i realise he didnt even make the list!!!! BIZZARE!!!

Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

1 Salvador Sanchez
2 Sandy Saddler
3 Willie Pep
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Abe Attell
6 Vicente Saldivar
7 Eusebio Pedroza
8 Azumah Nelson
9 George Dixon
10 Freddie Miller

How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

JACKMAGIC wrote:

Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

Who is better Barrera or Naz? Lists are done to compare fighters who cant fight each other from different eras but for Barrera and Naz dont need that they fought each other and Barrera proved he was better. Not saying Naz aint quality because he is but how can anyone think he is better than Barrera?

Waingro wrote:

JACKMAGIC wrote:

Waingro wrote:Barrera schooled Naz and proved he was better so Naz shouldnt be ahead. I am a huge Naz fan and think he was pure class but have to admit that Barrera schooled him. Barrera was better and beat him fairly no arguments there.

No way Barrera is rated higher than Naz. Yes he beat him when they met but you can't just place an ATG ranking based on one fight. Chris is spot on with his example. I appreciate the logic you have applied but it is not as straight forward as that!

Who is better Barrera or Naz? Lists are done to compare fighters who cant fight each other from different eras but for Barrera and Naz dont need that they fought each other and Barrera proved he was better. Not saying Naz aint quality because he is but how can anyone think he is better than Barrera?

Danny Willams fought Tyson and beat him, not too sure you would get too many folk putting Danny above Tyson on a heavyweight list. Extreme example but just illustrating things are not always as simple as who won when they fought.

Ok if you think Naz is better than Barrera that your opinion but imo Barrera schooled him and is the better boxer also beat quality fighters like Morales. Tyson was washed up when he fought Willimas was Naz washed up, I don think he was anyway.

He wasn't washed up but he certainly was not as dedicated as he had been previously and with hindsight signs of regression had been there in some of his previous fights, not to excuse the loss if you can't be bothered to train you get what you deserve. Would have to ask would you find room for Junior Jones above Barrera were you to do your list?

Waingro wrote:Ok if you think Naz is better than Barrera that your opinion but imo Barrera schooled him and is the better boxer also beat quality fighters like Morales. Tyson was washed up when he fought Willimas was Naz washed up, I don think he was anyway.

It is my opinion and you certainly have the right to yours. I am not disputing that Barrera wasn't a class fighter, but a victory over another fighter does not necessarily prove who is the best overall, legacy considered. Hamed was not a shot fighter but he was on his way down while Barrera was the in form fighter.

Rahman beat Lewis but I doubt anyone would put Rahman above him!

thats ok you have your opinion so no probs but imo Barrera was a better boxer than Naz and deserves to be ranked higher

Rahman beat lewis that is true but lewis destroyed him after. did hamed destroy barrera no he didnt but if he did then i would put him above

Waingro wrote:thats ok you have your opinion so no probs but imo Barrera was a better boxer than Naz and deserves to be ranked higher

Rahman beat lewis that is true but lewis destroyed him after. did hamed destroy barrera no he didnt but if he did then i would put him above

Barrera lost twice to Junior Jones, would you therefore have Jones above him?

If juniror jones beat him twice fairly then he better than barerra if barrera was at his best. Khan also beat barrera but imo barrera was washed up and fight should have been a nc coz of that cut.

At 126lbs Barerra beat Nas, Morales, Tapia and Kelly. He lost to Pacquiao.

Nas beat Bungu, Soto, Ingle (future World champion), Kelley, McCullogh and Vasquez.

Nas between 1997 and 2000 could make the claim to be the best at the weight he makes my list just putting the finishing touches to it.

i guess whats the point of fighting lol, you school a guy and he ends up rated better than you. win-win for Naz and lose-lose for Barrera.

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Thanks for backing me up in my absence Milky but will admit that like Rowley I simply forgot about a fighter whom I shouldn't have, will have to reshuffle my list a bit to fit him in as Hamed will be moving up a few places too.

I really wish idiots didn't bother posting on my articles and degrading them with obscenities like 'lol' and the like, feel revolted by it and want them gone.

Will also add for Zoomy that I need a full list of 15 if you want your list included.

Pep
Saddler
Sanchez
Salvidar
Attell
Armstrong
Dixon
Miller
Nelson
Pedroza
Gomez
Hamed
Chaocolate
McGovern
Driscoll

milkyboy wrote:

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

azumah HOF wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

Aside from Pep and Saddler I would agree with you. Pep would have ran rings round Nelson and their is no shame in that. Saddler would have stood toe to toe with Nelson but his power and tendency to get very rough would have been too much for the African imo.

azumah HOF wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

zoomy,you're preaching to the converted mate... if you read between the lines of my comments re sanchez you'd twig what i was alluding to. Nelson, was always better in rematches... he took the sanchez fight at 2 weeks notice after being a novice in africa and gave sal fits before running out of steam. He had his lacklustre performances but i'm a big nelson fan... i was merely cutting ghosty some slack as he'd rated him highly at super feather... for me, he is a top 10 feather without doubt

milkyboy wrote:

azumah HOF wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

azumah HOF wrote:How can we even justify having Gomes in the top ten and not Zoom Zoom when Zomm emasculated him infront of his baying fans?????

Zoom ripped out the heart of a champion on the champs home turf.... the good old days, where fightgers took risks out of their comfort zone. As much as i love Mayweather my biggest critique of him is that he didnt fight on the road, away from home enough!

zoomy... ghosty who originates these threads, opted for nelson as a super feather... if you look through the rankings on the super-feather thread, you'll see your boy gets the credit he most undoubtedly deserves there

Milky.... still not an excuse i'm afraid! Zoomy fresh out of africa as a late sub takes the great Sanchez to the wire, he then dismantles the great Gomez infront of a partisan home crowd! added to this he also has the excellent Villasana beat twice as a feather as well Pat Cowdell who people forget was a very very good contender. He moves up to super because Mis MCWiggy woudln't take the bait and the bigger figts were now at a higher weight! Zoomy matures after the Sanchez fight and would have gone on to give any feather in history a tough examination!

zoomy,you're preaching to the converted mate... if you read between the lines of my comments re sanchez you'd twig what i was alluding to. Nelson, was always better in rematches... he took the sanchez fight at 2 weeks notice after being a novice in africa and gave sal fits before running out of steam. He had his lacklustre performances but i'm a big nelson fan... i was merely cutting ghosty some slack as he'd rated him highly at super feather... for me, he is a top 10 feather without doubt

Milky .... i was starting to doubt you there for a scary second!!! Was thinking that aint the Milky i remember from the old days! Apologies mate, got a bee in me bonnet!!!

... ahhh, thought you might be the old zoomy from 606. Good to see you on here fella

Get your votes in Milky and anyone else reading this.

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Attell
4. Sanchez
5. Armstrong
6. Kilbane
7. Saldivar
8. Pedroza
9. Chocolate
10. Nelson
11. Dixon
12. Dundee
13. Arguello
14. Miller
15. Driscoll

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Salvidar
6. Armstrong
7. Chocolate
8. Dundee
9. Kilbane
10. Arguello
11. Pedrosa
12. Nelson
13. Hamed
14. Gomez
15. Miller

1. Saddler
2. Pep
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Armstrong
6. Saldivar
7. Dundee
8. Driscoll
9. Kilbane
10. Miller
11. Dixon
12. Pedroza
13. Gomez
14. Nelson
15. McGovern

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Driscoll
6. Armstrong
7. Dundee
8. Saldivar
9. Nelson
10. Arguello
11. Chocolate
12. Gomez
13. Hamed
14. Kilbane
15. Pedroza

1. Pep
2. Saddler
3. Sanchez
4. Attell
5. Driscoll
6. Armstrong
7. Dundee
8. Saldivar
9. Nelson
10. Arguello
11. Chocolate
12. Gomez
13. Hamed
14. Kilbane
15. Spring

I have a habit of saying " Today Pep, tomorrow Saddler " to excuse my incompetence in trying to separate the pair. For this exercise, then, let today be tomorrow and I'll have them thus :

1. Saddler
2. Pep
3. Sanchez
4. Armstrong
5. Saldivar
6. Driscoll
7. Dundee
8. Kilbane
9. Miller
10.Attel
11.Nelson
12.Chocolate
13.Griffo
14.Pedroza
15.Arguello

Just to qualify, I regarded both Dixon and McGovern as bantams in the construction of my lists and considered neither a ' special case, ' such as Armstrong, to feature in more than one weight division. I'm not insisting that this is right, but merely pointing out the criteria upon which I made my choices.