606v2 Middleweight rankings

Thought i'd be kind to certain posters and muddy the waters even further by starting the middleweight rankings now which again includes the light middleweights

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Hagler
4. Robinson
5. Hopkins
6. Walker
7. Ketchel
8. Fitzsimmons
9. Burley
10. Lamotta
11. Cerdan
12. Zale
13. Tiger
14. Fullmer
15. Steele

One of the weaker divisions of the original 8 divisions in my opinion

1 Greb
2 Monzon
3 Hagler
4 Robinson
5 Ketchel
6 Walker
7 Dempsey
8 Zale
9 Hopkins
10 Burley
11 Cerdan
12 Tiger
13 La motta
14 Fulmer
15 Steele

Interesting that you think Middleweight is one of the weaker of the original eight weight classes, Ghosty. Just my opinion, but personally I'd say it has a claim to be the strongest, and is certainly in my elite four along with Light-Heavyweight, Welterweight and Lightweight. Very hard to pick between that particular quartet. Anyway, on to matters at hand.

1) Carlos Monzon 2) Harry Greb 3) Marvin Hagler 4) Bernard Hopkins 5) Stanley Ketchel 6) Ray Robinson 7) Mickey Walker 8) Gene Fullmer 9) Bob Fitzsimmons 10) Freddie Steele 11) Nino Benvenuti 12) Tony Zale 13) 'Nonpareil' Jack Dempsey 14) Emile Griffith 15) Jake La Motta

Just not convinced about the strength in depth beyond the top ten although in hindsight it's a clear 4th but a fair distance behind Welterweight, Lightweight and Light Heavyweight, was a bit too forthcoming with that statement.

So far, Langford and Fitz have caused some of us problems and, just when we think it's safe, here come Burley and Jones Jnr.

I'm probably going to regret it, but I'm going to include Burley among my middles, fully anticipating a hefty thwack over the knuckles from jeff rowley for his lowly placing. Roy Jones Junior had a pretty good place among my lightheavies, so I'm not going to count him, here.

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Ketchel
4. Hagler
5. Robinson
6. Hopkins
7. Walker
8. Burley
9. Fullmer
10. Steele
11. Dempsey ( Nonpareil )
12. Ryan
13. Tiger
14. Zale
15. LaMotta

Steele, at ten, might raise a few eyebrows, but I've always believed that the man and his record are under appreciated. Pity I couldn't find a place for Marcel Cerdan or Tiger Flowers, but seventeen into fifteen just won't go.

Windy you have got Burley higher than I have so your knuckles will remain completely safe.

Thank Heavens for that, mate.

Thought since I fully intend to have him at one at welter I would avoid accusations of bias by putting him as low as tenth in this list.

Only former world champions are eligible for the Welterweight list unfortunately.

1) Greb 2) Monzon 3) Hagler 4) Robinson 5) Hopkins 6) Ketchel 7) Fitzsimmons) 8) Walker 9) Ryan 10) Nonpareil Jack Dempsey 11) Burley 12) Zale 13) Tiger 14) O'Dowd 15) Steele

Reasonably happy with this one - can't find a place for LaMotta, who simply didn't beat enough prime middleweights. Like Windy, would have liked to find a spot for Flowers, but such is life.

No Fullmer in your fifteen, captain? Always had you down as a big fan of the Utah man. Low end top ten for me, although that's just my opinion.

Scrub that - I've gone and forgotten Gene Fullmer. This damn process. Let me try again.

1) Greb 2) Monzon 3) Hagler 4) Robinson 5) Hopkins 6) Ketchel 7) Fitzsimmons 8) Walker 9) Fullmer 10) Ryan 11) NJ Dempsey 12) Burley 13) Zale 14) Tiger 15) O'Dowd

So poor old Freddie Steele just misses out and joins Flowers and LaMotta on the pile marked "unlucky".

Quite so Chris. Put it down to pure imbecility on my part.

Good to see you've learnt the use of the edit function, Captain

Ghosty - sorry for my slackness in posting my lists both here and in the light-heavy thread, I'll endeavour to get on to it later on today.

I tell you, FoF, I'm thinking so slowly today that you could time me with a calendar.

Not a problem Fists, i'm just going to let them all run until all 10 divisions are done and i'll post them all in the vault at the same time with one thread on the main section for debate.

Ha, not heard that one in a while. The old ones are always the best.

This list business never was easy and it's not getting any easier.

My latest glaring omission is Nonpareil Jack. Easy, you might say : Pop him in where you think and then shove everybody down one. Except that it doesn't work, because I can't possibly imagine a top fifteen without Ryan, whereas I can imagine fifteen without either of LaMotta or Cerdan, each of whom I've placed above him.

Utterly illogical.

Sorry, Ghosty, but I must edit mine, pronto.

Windy have to admit that makes absolutely no sense and i'm now questioning your logic.

Is age finally catching up with Windy and the Captain? Is it time for a young lion to step up and knock them off their perch?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Windy have to admit that makes absolutely no sense and i'm now questioning your logic.

I can only assume that I tend to think in ' groups ' of fighters, Ghosty.

Or perhaps I'm just tired. Or daft.

Or both.

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Ketchel
4. Hagler
5. Hopkins
6. Fullmer
7. Robinson
8. Burley
9. Fitzsimmons
10. Steele
11. Dempsey ( Nonpareil )
12. Ryan
13. Tiger
14. LaMotta
15. Zale

Can see Sugar above Fullmer BUT Fullmer is 2-1-1 over SRR. Fullmer has Basilio as well. If we're being strict and excluding WW exploits, there's a good reason to reverse that order.

Therefore, my list for the HoF, to be different.

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Ketchel
4. Walker
5. Hagler
6. Hopkins
7. Fullmer
8. Dempsey
9. Robinson
10. Burley
11. Ryan
12. Tiger
13. Griffith
14. Steele
15. McCallum

Found this easier to do than the light heavy list overall and from what I can see mylist isnt too far off most others. Only thing I would say is that if light middleweight is included then its enough to allow McCallum to make the cut for me and may need to revise a few others ust to ensure I havent potentially missed anyone.

1) Harry Greb
2) Carlos Monzon
3) Marvin Hagler
4) Sugar Ray Robinson
5) Stanley Ketchell
6) Freddie Steele
7) Bernard Hopkins
8) Mickey Walker
9) Bob Fitzsimmons
10) Dick Tiger
11) Tiger Flowers
12) Gene Fullmer
13) Jake LaMotta
14) Charley Burley
15) Tony Zale

Notable Mentions: Marcel Cerdan, Tony Zale, Charles McCoy

Never been too sold on Zale or LaMotta I must admit.

Zale was perhaps unfortunate to lose a significant portion of his career to the war (although it makes his reign look alot longer than it perhaps would have been) but his almost complete failure to meet any of the murderers (Bivins, Moore, Charles, Marshall, Williams, Burley, Chase etc) row combined with a title reign thats not all that special means Ive always been skeptical of him to a large degree.

Likewise with many of the 1940s champions inculding Cochrane, Lesnevich, Mills, LaMotta who I think would be really just solid divisional contenders rather than outright champions had the murderers row been given more opportunities.

I remember being almost alone in thinking that the divisions between Welterweight and Light heavyweight would have been contested between the BMR and Charles, Moore and Robinson but it appears Colonial that you agree. Much the reason that i'm more easy with my praise of Moore and Charles than I am with Robinson because they fought the best fighters available rather than the best white fighters available.

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Robinson
4. Hagler
5. Hopkins
6. Ketchell
7. Walker
8. Fitsimmon
9. Fullmer
10. Lamotta
11. Burley
12. Dempsey
13. Ryan
14. Tiger
15. Flowers

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I remember being almost alone in thinking that the divisions between Welterweight and Light heavyweight would have been contested between the BMR and Charles, Moore and Robinson but it appears Colonial that you agree. Much the reason that i'm more easy with my praise of Moore and Charles than I am with Robinson because they fought the best fighters available rather than the best white fighters available.

In general I would agree yes. Its tricky to say with Robinson because he himself had wait longer than he should for his own shot at the welterweight crown and for the bulk of his career the majority of the murderers row were campaigning a division or two above him. When he has welteweight champion the likes of Holman Williams and Charley Burley were up at middleweight and by the time he moved to middleweight the likes they were largely retired and the likes of Charles, Moore, Bivins and so on were all light heavyweight or above for the most part.
It has to be said that during Robinsons actual title reign there were comparitively few murders row fighters that were in his division to challenge him. The argument seems to centre largely around Burley who could have come down from middleweight to challenge Robinson at welterweight earlier perhaps but the overlaps for fights with the murders row fighters was not as big as it was primarily middleweight and light heavyweight that were the divisions occupied by them and by the time Robinson moved to middleweight there were none of them left there really. By remaining at welterweight for so long and winning the title there it seemed to put his career path on a route away from murderers row fighters that I tend to think was more natural rather than deliberately done although the fact he fought none at all even in non title bouts does create something of an asterix.

Liam_Main wrote:1) Harry Greb
2) Carlos Monzon
3) Marvin Hagler
4) Sugar Ray Robinson
5) Stanley Ketchell
7) Freddie Steele
8) Bernard Hopkins
9) Mickey Walker
10) Bob Fitzsimmons
11) Dick Tiger
12) Tiger Flowers
13) Gene Fullmer
14) Jake LaMotta
15) Charley Burley

Notable Mentions: Marcel Cerdan, Tony Zale, Charles McCoy

You don't have anyone at number 6 Liam

You do bring up a very interesting with regards to McCallum, on balance his light middleweight and middleweight resume is probably enough for consideration but even then i'm not sure if it's enough to gain a place.

I might be being a touch generous to McCallum, but for me he just edges out the likes of LaMotta, Zale, Flowers and Cerdan for the bottom spot if his light middleweight credentials are to be considered (still consider him second only to Hearns at light middleweight). However if light middle is excluded then he would rank much lower down.

Have to say, Colonial, I've got Mike ahead of Tommy at the top at 154, but his middleweight career was a bit mixed, by comparison. One of my favourite fighters, but would be in my 16-20 batch for the purpose of this exercise (as would Hearns).

Hagler over Robinson??????..Sorry Marvin's reign Hearns aside had little in terms of quality.....For me Hopkins and Jones jr and maybe Nunn over 12 all beat him....Hagler is always ranked to high!! Remember Duran and Vito??

Ketchell at three..........

Say no more.

Hagler didn't have the ups and down of Robinson at the weight which is a massive plus for him, as for the head to heads I give Hopkins a good chance stylistically to beat him but not Nunn or Jones jr.

Don't understand myself why Ketchel gets rated so highly at the weight, Papke and O'brien aside I don't see the quality of his wins.

Can't see Robbo drawing with Vito and nicking a decision by a single point against a lightweight...

Jones jr beats him...let's face facts Duran nearly outsmarted him, Vito got a draw..Hamsho made him think and Leonard took a decision....

Jones was better and had more smarts than all those characters..

Nothing to suggest Hagler could beat a guy of that calibre...

Hearns fought the wrong fight..Jones wouldn't be that stupid..

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Ketchel
4. Hagler
5. Robinson
6. Walker
7. Zale
8. Hopkins
9. Dempsey
10. Burley
11. Cerdan
12. Tiger
13. Fullmer
14. Steele
15. LaMotta

1. Greb
2. Robbo
3. Hopkins
4. Monzon
5. Walker
6. Hagler
7. Cerdan
8. Ketchel

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:1) Harry Greb
2) Carlos Monzon
3) Marvin Hagler
4) Sugar Ray Robinson
5) Stanley Ketchell
7) Freddie Steele
8) Bernard Hopkins
9) Mickey Walker
10) Bob Fitzsimmons
11) Dick Tiger
12) Tiger Flowers
13) Gene Fullmer
14) Jake LaMotta
15) Charley Burley

Notable Mentions: Marcel Cerdan, Tony Zale, Charles McCoy

You don't have anyone at number 6 Liam

Edited

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Can't see Robbo drawing with Vito and nicking a decision by a single point against a lightweight...

Jones jr beats him...let's face facts Duran nearly outsmarted him, Vito got a draw..Hamsho made him think and Leonard took a decision....

Jones was better and had more smarts than all those characters..

Nothing to suggest Hagler could beat a guy of that calibre...

Hearns fought the wrong fight..Jones wouldn't be that stupid..

Jones Jr had great athleticism but I think his fall from grace shows that ring smarts really weren't his thing. Duran was a veteran by the time he fought Hagler and Leonard knew every trick in the book and had everything in his favour, had his chin tested. Managed a split.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Can't see Robbo drawing with Vito and nicking a decision by a single point against a lightweight...

Jones jr beats him...let's face facts Duran nearly outsmarted him, Vito got a draw..Hamsho made him think and Leonard took a decision....

Jones was better and had more smarts than all those characters..

Nothing to suggest Hagler could beat a guy of that calibre...

Hearns fought the wrong fight..Jones wouldn't be that stupid..

Jones Jr had great athleticism but I think his fall from grace shows that ring smarts really weren't his thing. Duran was a veteran by the time he fought Hagler and Leonard knew every trick in the book and had everything in his favour, had his chin tested. Managed a split.

Agree with Truss. Hagler wasn't the smartestof fighters. Jones Jr's decline was age and weight dropping. No tactics can completely account for those things. That's like pointing to Leonard v Norrisas an example of how beatable Leonard is.

Then again Truss I don't see Hagler losing to any of Lamotta, Basilio, Turpin or Fullmer so balances it up a little bit and personally have never seen anything in Jones to suggest he beats an elite fighter at their best which Hagler did in beating Hearns.

Bob wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Can't see Robbo drawing with Vito and nicking a decision by a single point against a lightweight...

Jones jr beats him...let's face facts Duran nearly outsmarted him, Vito got a draw..Hamsho made him think and Leonard took a decision....

Jones was better and had more smarts than all those characters..

Nothing to suggest Hagler could beat a guy of that calibre...

Hearns fought the wrong fight..Jones wouldn't be that stupid..

Jones Jr had great athleticism but I think his fall from grace shows that ring smarts really weren't his thing. Duran was a veteran by the time he fought Hagler and Leonard knew every trick in the book and had everything in his favour, had his chin tested. Managed a split.

Agree with Truss. Hagler wasn't the smartestof fighters. Jones Jr's decline was age and weight dropping. No tactics can completely account for those things. That's like pointing to Leonard v Norrisas an example of how beatable Leonard is.

However when Ali slowed he used ring savvy to keep on winning, Jones Jr never had that level of ring intellect. Hagler wasn't the smartest but he tended to do what was needed. With Hearns he turned it into a fight and with most guys he just walked them down and pressured them into crumbling.

I don't believe Jones Jr was a better mover than Leonard and I don't believe his chin would stand up to Hagler's kind of pressure and strength. Obviously it's all a fantasy anyway...

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Mickey Walker
6. Freddie Steele
7. Sugar Ray Robinson
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
1o. Gene Fullmer
11. Charley Burley
12. Kid McCoy
13.Tiger Flowers
14. Jake Lamotta
15. Tony Zale

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Stanley Ketchell
7. Mickey Walker
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Gene Fullmer
10. Charley Burley
11. Tony Zale
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Marcel Cerdan
14. Freddie Steele
15. Jake LaMotta

This one is heating up very very nicely indeed, each and every vote is making a difference to almost every position.

Get mine up soon.

Would you be interested in doing the british p4p one as well?

Finding these tough to exlude certain fighters but it must be done.


1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Mickey Walker
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Marcel Cerdan
10. Gene Fullmer
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Tony Zale
13. Charlie Burley
14. Tiger Flowers
15. Dick Tiger

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Would you be interested in doing the british p4p one as well?

Will do Ghosty.

Cheers mate, didn't get many votes for that one so despite already having posted the results still looking to edit it.