606v2 Welterweight rankings

On advice of Chris this will be for solely the Welterweight division as the light welterweights will have their own rankings

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Leonard
4. Gavilan
5. Ross
6. Hearns
7. Napoles
8. Griffith
9. Walcott
10. Burley
11. McClarnin
12. Trinidad
13. Walker
14. Britton
15. Lewis

After about 50 million changes i've settled for that but can imagine i'll be easily swayed, found it very difficult not to find a place for Whitaker

1 Robinson
2 Leonard
3 Armstrong
4 Walcott
5 Gavilan
6 Ross
7 Hearns
8 Napoles
9 Griffith
10 McLarnin
11 Walker
12 Burley
13 Lewis
14 Basillo
15 Britton

Flippin' eck Rowley. How do you post these lists so quick. Do you have them tattoo'd on your forearms or something?

Find it doesn't do to think about them too much otherwise my head starts to hurt, also given we have had heavy light heavy and middle over the last few days was not too hard to work out welter was coming soon and start getting it sorted in your head.

I'll throw in a curveball next then Rowley and you wont know what's coming next.

rowley wrote:Find it doesn't do to think about them too much otherwise my head starts to hurt, also given we have had heavy light heavy and middle over the last few days was not too hard to work out welter was coming soon and start getting it sorted in your head.

Alright. Didn't want to upset you. It was a backhanded compliment but if that's your attitude then balls to you.

Tito used illegal handwraps most of his career.

I've always thought that the IBRO welter rankings are just about spot on, my only minor quibble being that I felt Hearns was worthy of a place a couple of notches higher.

Therefore :

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Barbados Joe Walcott
5. Barney Ross
6. Kid Gavilan
7. Thomas Hearns
8. Jose Napoles
9. Emile Griffith
10.Mickey Walker
11.Jimmy McLarnin
12.Jack Britton
13.Ted (Kid) Lewis
14.Carmen Basilio
15.Tommy Ryan

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:Tito used illegal handwraps most of his career.

Any evidence to suggest this and while he was caught with illegal wraps against Hopkins, as far as I know it was just the wrapping itself rather than like Margarito who was caught with plaster.

True no plaster of paris, but the way they were wrapped (especially with tape over the knuckles) made his hands harder.

If Margarito gets all this flak, doesn’t seem right for Tito to get off scott free.

Having plaster of paris is deemed as possession of a deadly weapon whereas having your hands wrapped in an unconventional manner is not, also nothing to suggest he did it for any other fights much like Margarito.

There is no evidence to suggest Marg did either?

But he was caught in possession of a deadly weapon, Trinidad was not.

Benard Hopkins wrote:If you put on tape, then gauze, then tape, then gauze, it's like a [plaster] cast. It's like being hit with a baseball bat

Sounds deadly enough to me

That's the opinion of one man, i'll take the opinions of the organisations and the law myself.

1) Robinson 2) Armstrong 3) Leonard 4) Ross 5) Gavilan 6) Walcott 7) Napoles 8) Walker 9) Hearns 10) McLarnin 11) Griffith 12) Whitaker 13) Trinidad 14) Britton 15) Ted Kid Lewis

Editing away like mad, since I forgot Whitaker! I'm beginning to dislike this process greatly - it ties you in ridiculous knots.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's the opinion of one man, i'll take the opinions of the organisations and the law myself.

Fair enough

End the of the day thou there not the one taking the punches.

End of the day tape is far different to plaster of paris, just saying.

1) Ray Robinson 2) Henry Armstrong 3) Ray Leonard 4) Kid Gavilan 5) Jose Napoles 6) Emile Griffith 7) Jack Britton 8) Pernell Whitaker 9) 'Barbados' Joe Walcott 10) Felix Trinidad 11) Barney Ross 12) Carmen Basilio 13) Ted 'Kid' Lewis 14) Oscar De la Hoya 15) Mickey Walker

No Hearns Chris?

Or McLarnin?

1) Sugar Ray-Robinson
2) Henry Armstrong
3) Sugar Ray-Leonard
4) Emile Griffith
5) Joe Walcott
6) Kid Gavilan
7) Jose Napoles
8) Barney Ross
9) Jimmy McLarnin
10) Jack Britton
11) Tommy Hearns
12) Ted Lewis
13) Pernell Whittaker
14) Mickey Walker
15) Felix Trinidad

Interesting to see Hearns that far up the list and no Curry......

Stuffing Cuevas and little else there and losing a great fight to Leonard seems to give him a lofty position..

Beating Starling, Jones, Mcrory and unifying all the titles over a 3 1/2 year period might mean more than it's given credit for..to some people.

Hence why i'm trying to get the opinions of as many people as possible so that it's a more definitive list and judging by the opinions so far you seem to be in a minority of one.

That's ok....my opinion is just as valid..

Just saying Truss that it puts into some context the opinions of the two fighters on a larger scale than one isolated opinion of either you or me.

Not saying Hearns isn't a greater fighter........just think bar Cuevas his best wins were higher up............Benitez, Duran, Shuler, Hill, Leonard (he did win the 2nd fight)......

Great, great fighter but more of a great weight jumper than great welterweight for me..

Although had he stayed probably could've been the 2nd best behind Robbo ...

The Cuevas win and the Leonard performance is more than enough by itself to rate higher than Curry.

b***cks...

A loss rates now does it!!!!

Considering Sharkey got a rough decision against Jeffries and Young who beat Foreman got one against Ali......let's stick them in the heavy top 20...

Starling twice, Jones, Mcrory and nine title defences, unifying in the process...give it a rest...

Baloney..

Why isn't Turpin in your Midd top 10 then Mate...???

after all a win over sugar and a hard fought rematch loss is more than most of the top 10 did to use your criteria...

It's not baloney in the slightest as you are the only person i've known who would even contemplate rating Curry above Hearns at Welterweight, yes that loss means more than any of Currys wins because it was against one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Tell you what if we start rating fighters and placing them on losses..then got help Duran if we count Hearns..

So tell me this who else rates Curry in the same league as Hearns?

Well seeing as Duran was decisively beaten that's a pretty poor example.

Some might say being helpless on the ropes was quite decisive...

why should I care what anybody else on here thinks???? Have my own thoughts..you can play it safe and fit in if you want!!

Duran isn't a poor example.......because fighters are rated on accomplishments...Getting left helpless by Leonard isn't a bright spot in the hit mans career........Using it as a positive can be seriously questionned..

Starling beats Cuevas for me........Jones and mcrory were quality......


to hell.. what any one else thinks they are fans too......not experts.

So you saying my opinion is baloney is complete and utter rubbish Truss is my point

Personally don't rate Jones or McCrory that highly so combined with a loss to Honeyghan which hurts him far more than a loss to Leonard does his case no favours. Starling may well beat Cuevas but would rate lower on achievement at the weight.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tell you what if we start rating fighters and placing them on losses..then got help Duran if we count Hearns..

you can't have it both ways Truss- half the time you use the arguement that Hearns "owned" (your word, not mine) Leonard during that fight to back up your claims that Hearns was a greater fighter than is sometimes gets credit for, but now your seem to be arguing that that loss should count against him. And for what it's worth, performances are sometimes more important than results, esp. when they are against opponents from the very top draw. We all complain about fighter protecting their "o"s, but then use losses to undermine their greatness.

1. Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Leonard
4. Ross
5. Gavilan
6. Walcott
7. Napoles
8. Walker
9. Griffith
10. McLarnin
11. Britton
12. Hearns
13. Lewis
14. De la Hoya
15. Whitaker

I think this will have to do for now after some deliberation but it may well change after further reflection.

Not too much difficulty with the top 10, but awfully difficult allocating the final 4/5 spots.

It's unfortunate, Truss, but I have had a glance through just about every reputable ratings organisation/historian's rankings that I could think of, and nowhere does Curry get into a top 15. He is missing from the lists of the aficionado, the novice, the dabbler and the expert alike.

We all have our favourites; it's quite understandable that we should have a slightly one-eyed view of them. If you were to believe that the Earth were triangular and the moon made of green cheese, you would be entitled to that opinion too. Ultimately, you'll have to understand if people can't bring themselves to share your enthusiasm.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Interesting to see Hearns that far up the list and no Curry......

Stuffing Cuevas and little else there and losing a great fight to Leonard seems to give him a lofty position..

Beating Starling, Jones, Mcrory and unifying all the titles over a 3 1/2 year period might mean more than it's given credit for..to some people.

do we have to go through this everytime.

Truss is offering a sincerely held opinion, SOF.

We may not agree that Curry deserves a top fifteen berth, but Truss genuinely does, and so it's perfectly normal that he should say so and support his reasoning in open debate.

I reckon Jack Sharkey is one of the most under rated heavyweights in history and I find myself in a very small minority by saying so. However, nobody has ever suggested I shouldn't be allowed to present my case.

That's what we are here for, after all.

HumanWindmill wrote:Truss is offering a sincerely held opinion, SOF.

We may not agree that Curry deserves a top fifteen berth, but Truss genuinely does, and so it's perfectly normal that he should say so and support his reasoning in open debate.

I reckon Jack Sharkey is one of the most under rated heavyweights in history and I find myself in a very small minority by saying so. However, nobody has ever suggested I shouldn't be allowed to present my case.

That's what we are here for, after all.

Sorry Windy but were did I say he couldn't present his case?

I wasn't having a pop, SOF, but rather underlining the point that folks sometimes have very different opinions from the mainstream, and that it is often interesting to see how those opinions are supported.

I suppose since where on a forum and all

Just that its be brought up so many times, I even know what he's going to say

Its still a sore spot for him and its been 25 years!

1. SRR
2. SRL
3. Armstrong
4. Barbados Joe Walcott
5. Ross
6. Gavilan
7. Hearns
8. Griffith
9. Napoles
10. Britton
11. Walker
12. McLarnin
13. Ted (Kid) Lewis
14. Basilio
15. Ryan

Just missing out - Burley, Whittaker, Benitez, Curry, Holman Williams.

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Leonard
4. Gavilan
5. Napoles
6. Walcott
7. Ross
8. Griffith
9. McClarnin
10. Britton
11. Walker
12. Hearns
13. Whitaker
14. Lewis
15. Ryan

Sorry for the late reply, Ghosty and captain. As much as I love Hearns, I can make him low end of the top twenty at best purely at Welterweight. Mind you, I can see the appeal in having him higher. But I look at the fact that he was only on the title scene at 147 lb for a short time and that he lost his biggest fight against the best Welterweight that he faced, and I just don't see a top fifteen Welterweight there. The Cuevas win was superb, but more because Hearns was such a young and inexperienced fighter at the time. Cuevas himself wouldn't worry a top fifteen, and neither does Hearns for me.

Have to admit captain, that it was virtually a toss up for those last two places between Walker, De la Hoya, McLarnin and, oddly enough, Curry. In the end, McLarnin never really establishing himself as a dominant champion and losing his series to the best Welterweight he faced means that he just missed the cut, though he could have made it on another day. The thing with McLarnin is that much of his best work was spread across both Lightweight and Welterweight - he'd make the top twenty for both, but isn't quite an elite name in either, for me at least.

I feel De la Hoya's 147 lb exploits are underrated. He was very much 'the man' for two and a half years and eight defences between edging Whitaker and losing that contentious one to Trinidad, and beat Quartey in what really should have been a unification match.

Hearns and McLarnin miss out for me (McLarnin by less) but if anyone were to place them between tenth and fifteenth I wouldn't be complaining.

I use the Hearns owning in relation to people using the Hagler, Moore and Barkley wins and dismissing his Hearns loss at 154 because he was a lightweight..

I rate Duran highly but not top 10 because of his struggle with quality "boxers"...Benitez, Laing, Hearns etc..

end of..

But thanks for telling me my opinion..

Not sure what relevance Duran has to this discussion quite frankly

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. Barney Ross
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Barbados Joe Walcott
7. Emile Griffith
8. Jimmy McLarnin
9. Mickey Walker
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Jose Napoles
12. Jack Britton
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Carmen Basilio
15. Tommy Ryan

No Kid Lewis Galveston?