Referees

First topic message reminder :

Outrageous news this morning as rouge Irish referee George "Vigilante" Clancy has escaped with a mere warning after blatantly overstepping his jurisdiction and conspiring with an unknown local man to rub out a valid All Black try in Port Elizabeth on Saturday.

After first suggesting that Clancy would be dealt with appropriately "It was disappointing and will form part of our discussions when we next meet." and confirming that the try should have stood, that Clancy was incorrect and that the local South African school teacher had led Clancy astray, toothless IRB chief referee O'Brien again displayed his inept handling of refereeing failure when he did nothing other than offer that "referees will be reminded of the protocol".

In a chilling reminder of O'Brien's failure to tackle the indept performance of English whistler Wayne Barnes in the 2007 RWC, Paddy remarked "the gaffe would not have any World Cup consequences, and didn't affect the outcome of the game".

Israel Dagg has suggested that the pass was not forward anyway, and that the incident which saw the local South African man (drafted in under questionable circumstances at the 11th hour apparently in contingency for such an opportunity) was really a moot point given the legality of the pass in the first place.

Graham Henry, as amiable and level headed as ever pointed out that if the pass was not forward then the try should have been awarded regardless of the efforts of the pair to conspire to find a reason to rule out the try.

It's clear that the sooner that POB is replaced with Steve Walsh, the better.

I kind of suspected you were on the wind up GG.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Sorry - missed your question altogether.

No, I think you're wrong. McCaw is just very good at his role. He rarely does anything actually wrong and mostly it's just opposition fans who don't understand the rules bitching on about his so-called "cheating". In reality he knows the rules better than most TMOs. He gets pinged on average I think twice a game, which is very low by comparison.

Sorry GG - that's rubbish. One 3N last year against W he was pinged 4 times in 6 penalties at one stage for breakdown infringements. On the 4th time time the ref said "this is a formal warning". Issue is no one individual gets pinged that many times and survives without a yellow card. You know the yellow card count last year - about 300 given to W and 1 or so to ABs. He gets pinged, yes but never yellow carded.

Genius? Love sacks. Referees star struck ? Yes absolutely. He is captain of what is the best side in the world. Refs mainly don't want to take him on. We know POB would not approve of that and they have families to feed.

At RWC I think he might just find a few more people pinging him - that's why GH is having his public nightmares about refereeing at the breakdown - ergo - the jig is up. Lets hope so. It devalues the aura and the qaulity of the AB jersey to see the captain resorting to the style of play to which he has become accustomed.

So what are you complaining about? He was penalised?

What do you want? A TMO to intervene and tell the referee to leave him alone?

Frankly I'm tired of this nonsense anecdotal evidence "Oh Oh! Oh! Do you know what??? Richie McCaw was penalised 186 times in the first 4 minutes and the referee took him aside and said "Sorry Richie I won't penalise you anymore, Sir". It's just rubbish, and utter nonsense.

Remember Richie is the captain, so quite often he'll get the team warning on something, then get penalised himself later for a different infringement - it doesn't mean he PERSONALLY is being warned.

I'm sure you are right and we'll see a few of those dodgy NH refs pinging the SH guys in outrageous ways like Allan Lewis did in Wales last time out. It seems to be a trend doesn't it? NH refs wanting to penalise the SH sides and not the NH sides.

I do recall in the same game Allan Lewis getting repeated calls that Wales were all off side in defense and him saying clearly "I've seen it, it doesn't matter", whilst jiffy screetched "THE LIIIIIAAAAN SPPEEEED" in the commentary box.

Eirebilly
I find it pretty strange that this thread can run for two days and you can get the message.
Since you are the one that bought Richie McCaw into the subject, then tell me this.
After watching An Irish referee (i'm not being selective by race,there is a history here) display to the World that he is so unfamiliar with the rules of rugby,Is it then the teeniest innciest chance that may be Richie McCaw is far more knwledgable and conversant with the rules of rugby than some of the referees running around on the IRBs International panel of referees?

Should read "you cant get the message"

aucklandlaurie wrote: Eirebilly
I find it pretty strange that this thread can run for two days and you can get the message.
Since you are the one that bought Richie McCaw into the subject, then tell me this.
After watching An Irish referee (i'm not being selective by race,there is a history here) display to the World that he is so unfamiliar with the rules of rugby,Is it then the teeniest innciest chance that may be Richie McCaw is far more knwledgable and conversant with the rules of rugby than some of the referees running around on the IRBs International panel of referees?

I am not saying anything about Clancy. I have said that he and the TMO got it wrong. I have no issue there at all so it appears to me that you havent read my posts that well.
I brought Richie McCaw up because of the way that GG was suggesting yellow cards and possible bans for players that intentionally foul and wanted to highlight the fact that if they went down GG's road then Richie would be in some big problems.
I suggest before you start being rude towards me, you actually read what is being written.

eirebilly
So you;re trying to duck the question then?

You may like to know that when this thread started it was entitled "Clancy Services"

What question? That Richie McCaw knows about the rules of rugby? Of course he does. Does he know more than referees? I could'nt say as i dont know the man personally.

I was responding to GG's over zealous claims that referees (the titel of the thread) should yellow card more players for intentional fouling.

You are the one that was rude and have been made to look a little silly for poking your nose into something without actually reading what was being said.

eirebilly
i'll phrase it this way, Clancy until he familiarises himself with the laws of rugby should not be refereeing a team captained bu Richie McCaw.

And it is very clear to me why Grey Ghost went down the line he did.

This article is going to admitted to the HALL OF FAME at 606v2, it has been going round in circles for some time now.

I am sorry, maybe i will clarify myself a little better. Clancy and the TMO made a big mistake, i agreed on that. Everyone makes mistakes, it doesnt mean that he doesnt know the rules.

You now say that he is then not fit to ref a team that is captained by Richie McCaw, why only a team captained by him and not every other team then?
Are you now saying that refs should ref 1 way for the AB's and another for the rest of the world?

I was reacting to GG's later statements that Clancy should have yellow carded the Sth African player for a cynical foul and that refs should clamp down on all players doing that. I merely stated that this was a dangerous precedent due to Richie McCaw's infringements.

May i now ask you why, you felt the need to be rude to me?

Biltong
Sometimes you have to knuckle under and shpw a bit of perseverance.

Aucklandlaurie, this is one of those arguments nobody will win.

Eirebilly
you could substitute the name McCaw with Elsom,Smit, Matfield,Howell,etc I was being cordial to you,because that was the name you used.

The reason that Clancy and the TMO made the error they made was because they didn't know the rules.In New Zealand these rules are covered in the Level 3 papers for the NZRFU coaching certificates, The minimal level required to coach club rugby in Auckland, How clancy can referee any country (let alone the ABs) staggers belief.

Biltong
Its not an arguement....

No, you are assuming that they didnt know the rules rather than simply making a mistake (albeit a big one).

I doubt whether you were being cordial considering the way in which you first approached me.

Anyway, there is no point to discussing this anymore.

eirebilly wrote:What question? That Richie McCaw knows about the rules of rugby? Of course he does. Does he know more than referees? I could'nt say as i dont know the man personally.

I was responding to GG's over zealous claims that referees (the titel of the thread) should yellow card more players for intentional fouling.

You are the one that was rude and have been made to look a little silly for poking your nose into something without actually reading what was being said.

I didn't claim that referees should yellow card more players at all. I said it was (a) odd that Clancy felt the need to get the TMO involved in the first place given that the grounding was obviously fine (b) wrong that they broke the laws of the game to rule out the try (c) suspicious that in his zeal to bring up the allegedly forward offload he failed to notice the illegal action of the South African defender in making the tackle and failing to release the tackled player.

It seems clear that the local man had an agenda to have the try disallowed, and that Clancy has no idea what he is doing.

If it wasn't a try (which it was) then it was a penalty try and possibly yellow card, and given that Clancy showed his ignorance of basic rules the fact that he hasn't been stood down immediately from the world cup beggars belief. Or at least it would beggar belief if POB hadn't already revealed through his handling of the Barnes debacle, just what a toothless leader he really is.

TheGreyGhost wrote:No no no. There are different rules in different circumstances.

Those are two different circumstances.

The person in violation of the law (as clarified by the IRB) was Clancy and the dodgy local south african teacher (drafted in at the last minute under suspicious circumstances).
.

It wasn't a try. It was a forward pass. NZ lost 18-5.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Honestly, you must be right, mate.

I have to perfrom surgery in two hours to hopefully fix some poor guys shoulder (terrible mess to the shoulder AC joint). And now I am going to be thinking of this idiotic stuff............

Dont worry you can always leave the complicated bits to a TMO if your minds elsewhere

Peter my friend, that was truly funny. And thank you - I needed that:

Just got back from nearly 5 hours straight of a reconstruction of this guy's shoulder. Thought it would be straight forwards. But I had crap information from the examining/diagnosing doctors. Told me the guy was prepared to live with a limiteed function in the arm. I find out he was injured about 6 months ago driving a truck in Afganistan - delivering food and medicines. No guns, no shooting, not part of the armed forces, no nuthin. Just a good guy doing a good thing. He might have been prepared to have limitied function in his arm, but I abso-f**king-lutely was not. So I changed the plan, and we all worked liked dogs. I think I got him in a good place and will be perfectly OK. I just got back, am dead tired, had a few beers, and had to rant. Sorry for that, but sometimes I need to get it out of my system.

And maybe, just maybe, this puts a little perspective on the topic of whether we want to cut the testicles off a referee who made a mistake. Trying to do the right thing. perspective lads. perspective.

Good to hear a Doctor caring

Ah but the difference is it's not against the rules to care.

Anybody notice who the man in the middle is for Australia v New Zealand

(Blue touch paper lit, now retire to a safe distance ..... )

PenfroPete wrote:Anybody notice who the man in the middle is for Australia v New Zealand

(Blue touch paper lit, now retire to a safe distance ..... )

Well it cant be Steve Walsh....

Oh bejaysus.

Why don't we just get him to tell us which score he's picked and save the trip to Brisbane?

Shane and the AB's are now neck and neck...

I don't get it taylor

nganboy wrote:I don't get it taylor

View results.

The poll is quite interesting. It clearly shows that the majority of posters here prefer the referees to be biased against the ABs rather than fair.

I guess that explains the support for Barnes after the 2007 debacle, and the support for this local teacher drafted in at the last minute under suspicious circumstances to ensure a SA victory at all costs.

I'm ignoring the votes for SW, it was really just there to occupy the Welsh posters and stop them trying to divert the thread into the usual Wales v England stoush.

TheGreyGhost wrote:The poll is quite interesting. It clearly shows that the majority of posters here prefer the referees to be biased against the ABs rather than fair.

I guess that explains the support for Barnes after the 2007 debacle, and the support for this local teacher drafted in at the last minute under suspicious circumstances to ensure a SA victory at all costs.

I'm ignoring the votes for SW, it was really just there to occupy the Welsh posters and stop them trying to divert the thread into the usual Wales v England stoush.

Ha, hmm, think it maaaay offer a greater indication of posters willingness to wind you up GG Although your SW section kind of backfired, might have well put a 'I'd rather pick the category that shows most disdain for this post' and be done with it.

As it happens, agree with your point on preventing referees making up the rules. But i have some sympathy for Clancy, he didn't ask for the additional information so while he got it wrong, i don;t think he was looking to find reason to punish the ABs, as some others have implied. The thought of sacking him from the WC as a result seems pretty heavy-handed. Would be interested to hear your alternative to him, but it has to acknowledge that some NH refs are required to prevent accusations of bias...and to ref the scrums properly obviously

Also, think the laws limiting the TMO's involvement in these sort of cases is utter tosh. Again, would be interested to hear your thoguhts on whether the current rules are preferable or not.

as it happens to be, Ian Jones the legendary lock of NZ, said he was happy that the TMO took a decision on this a few meters before the line, he reasoned that the catching of the forward pass was all in the act of scoring.

This on Re Union

Legend maybe. But incorrect all the same. The rules are very clear on what a TMO can and can't report on. Maybe it explains why he was penalised so often.

If it was in any way unclear, it has been re-clarified from the top down.

This decision was wrong, Clancy should be banned, possibly forced to endure some some public humiliation ritual, and obviously the outcome of the game should be over-turned with the South African players responsible for the tackle also banned from the RWC - along with anyone else who had a good game on Saturday for the Springboks.

It's only fair - I think you'd have to agree.

I think you are correct Ghost, I have arranged for Clancy's paycheque be withdrawn, SA have withdrawn from the Tri Nations for two years (a self imposed ban) and to show further remorse they will wear black....

At the world cup

biltonbek,
I absolutely applaud your actions. In fact, you deserve great praise for the extraordinary restraint and moderation you show. Considering the provacation, you could have done so much more. You are truly a man of the 21st century: punishment tempered with grace and mercy. Almost like the philosopher-kings of yore.

biltongbek wrote: SA will wear black....

At the world cup

That might stop Luke Mcalister feeling sick

Luke needs a bigger cure than that,

doctor_grey wrote:biltonbek,
I absolutely applaud your actions. In fact, you deserve great praise for the extraordinary restraint and moderation you show. Considering the provacation, you could have done so much more. You are truly a man of the 21st century: punishment tempered with grace and mercy. Almost like the philosopher-kings of yore.

Thanks Doc, when you live in South Africa it becomes a necessity to use eloquence, dipllomacy and gile when telling someone off. The down side to this is the dog gets it when you get home.

Biltong, there have been repeated remarks from you about dog abuse.

Personally I don't find this funny, and I've notified the SPCA.

I have to be honest that I know very little of South African culture, and I don't know what passes as acceptable there - I would ask though that you accede to the pet based morality of this fair land, and in the future when feeling frustrated you go out and find an asylum seeker to kick as the locals do.

If thats how your lot carry on its no wonder all the Polynesians come up here instead now

Thanks GreyGhost, the SPCA came to collect the dog this morning. They even put a lock on the Parrots cage.

Alas I will have to go back to bullying players on the rugby pitch as Xenophobia is not only illegal, but highly intolerable

The refereeing set up in rugby is one big conspiracy to facilitate the whinging ABs to win a world cup. Paddy OBrien a kiwi was selected to be head of the IRB because he has a Irish name and it wouldn't be obvious NZ bias when he became instrumental in changing the rules of the game to swing the balance of power from the Boks to the ABs.

Let's see what are the Boks good at mused "Paddy"? Kicking and they are very physical. I know let's change the kicking laws and the breakdown rules to allow for less physicality. Let's make sure refs stamp out bullies like Bakkies.

What else can I do? I'll appoint a kiwi ref pretending to be an Aussie to the RWC and earmark him for the final, damn it let's give him an Irish name too. What that guy in xfactor called that I love, Louis Walsh, cool we'll call him Steve Walsh then.

Walsh moved to Australia last year after having been struck off as a ref for verbablly abusing Shane Horgan and arriving drunk at a referees meeting among other indiscretions including being given a three day ban at the 03 WC after an altercation with an English coach. How he was a appointed a WC ref and an Aussie is very strange indeed. Please explain Paddy?

But what if a ref makes a mistake against the ABs Paddy, like Wayne Barnes in 07? No worries I will personally ridicule all referring errors made v the ABs. The Kiwi fans can apply more pressure by Whinging all the time.

But Paddy what if Din Caater or Sir Richie gets cited or injured? No worries, if any AB gets cited just tell the citing commissioner it was an accident I'll take care of the rest. You're fooked if they get injured, I can only do so much.

And that is the four year refereeing plan for world Kiwi domination.

They even fixed the Heineken cup so Nacewa could win that. You can tell hes a Kiwi, he plays for Fiji.

Nacewa is not recognised by the NZRU because he played for Fiji and learned to play rugby properly in Ireland. Therefore Roman Poite heavily favoured Northampton in the Hcup final particularly in the scrum. Leinster were just too good for Poite in the end.

I was forgetting about Hartley

Excellent summation Leinsters baby

Greyghost take note, THAT is a conspiracy theory

TheGreyGhost wrote: "THE LIIIIIAAAAN SPPEEEED"

brings a tear to the eye, hes a great man our Jiffy, fair and balanced.

Comfort wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote: "THE LIIIIIAAAAN SPPEEEED"

brings a tear to the eye, hes a great man our Jiffy, fair and balanced.

Actually laughed out loud in my office.

Sometimes GG is like gold dust.

Can we have a 'best of GG' thread some time?