Nadals Time Warning

Yesterday finally got round to watching the Nadal Del-Potro Wimbledon 4th round match. In the first set Nadal got a time warning for slow play between points. I know this is a subject that many people feel very strongly if not angry about. After the warning the commentators went on to discuss it at length... Stop clocks, point penalties, unfair on other players, Nadals opponants should complain more, umpires should be more harsh etc etc etc. Watching you were left with the impression that Nadal was verging on cheating.

The delay in question happened after Nadal netted an easy forehand volley. The crowd made a loud but short groaning noise. Nadal was about to serve exactly 20 seconds after this when he got the warning. This is the permitted time in GS events. Did he get the warning based on reputation? Should he appeal against it? If the umpire had given him a second warning it would have come with a point penalty. At a critical time in a match a point penalty could change the outcome of a match. If a point penalty has been awarded incorrectly should the match be replayed?

Those wanting harsher penalties should perhaps be careful what they wish for.

Nobody wants harsher penalties, just the rules being enforced.

Hawkeye: wrong call. Have a look at Nadal's service game at 5 - 6 and at the subsequent tie break and tell me if you can't identify at least 4 occasions where Nadal takes around 40 sec in between serves (I am willling to help with this eventually).

That means to me the rules are both not adhered to and not enforced.

If, as you said, the warning was not correct at the moment was made this is just an umpire mistake that means nothing. The rules should be applied consistently from the beginning, and this match shows clearly the lack of authority and courage of the umpire to do so.

Yes, trying to justify that Nadal plays within the rule is a tall order!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/sports/tennis/in-tennis-idea-of-shot-clock-has-some-momentum.html?_r=1

Not a new problem - love Nastase taking a break on baseline waiting for JMac.

It is a hard one to enforce because so often there is a little crowd disturbance and so the server begins again, but I do think there should be a warning for excessive time taken, and, as Looby suggests in article, that if it happens again the umpire should just declare second serve - no point fining, but losing a first serve might just concentrate the mind of worst offenders and speed them up!

Nice article!

"England — Slow play — intentionally, strategically, maddeningly slow play"

" Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic or Mardy Fish, the most deliberate of today’s men’s stars."

It's nice to see you are not the only one seeing this.

"Ljubicic, who favors a clock, said he was not concerned solely with Nadal’s pace of play between points as he goes through his pre-serve ritual, which includes cleaning the line with his foot, arranging his hair and adjusting the seat of his pants. He also has a problem, he said, with prematch delays as Nadal arrives on court and organizes his gear and water bottles, making his opponent wait at the net for the coin toss. "

“It takes him forever,” Ljubicic said. “I know that’s his routine, and I know it’s what he does all the time. I personally feel offended when he does it.”

So, it seems, not all the players love to wait patiently and gracefully as someone had suggested......

Of course it grates many players. Even Murray doesn't leave his chair for the toss coin until Nadal does. Soderling has been pretty clear about it. Federer never fails to mention it. Tsonga has also been vocal but I am sure that we only hear the minimum and nicer parts only.

tbf watching Nadal playing does get boring at times because tennis is never flowing, it is always stop, gap and break. I agree that there are other guilty parties too however players like fed, murray do keep the game flowing and a better spectacle.

I do not remember anyone from past who took as long as Nadal between points and has nth number of riuals before the match, in the match, in time outs, changeovers etc etc.

But that is the most amazing bit of it all:

Talking about the opportunity to set a "shot clock" on court measuring the time taken:

“It would be nice to have that, but I guess Rafa would push against it,” Jürgen Melzer of Austria, who is ranked No. 11, said, referring to Nadal. “I think it’s a good idea because then nobody would complain about it anymore.”

I remember a joker commenting on my article on this topic, suggesting that the players would voice their discontent if they were upset about it.

Wow! Ljubicic has it in for Nadal. I suppose all players are more irritating when they're winning. As for pre-match delays strange that no-one was upset when Murray left the court for something as soon as he arrived for his match with Nadal. The commentaters just laughed and said "wonder what he forgot". I wonder what would be said if Nadal forgot something...

As for Nadals time warning. I was just pointing out that in that particular case it was wrong. If it had lead to a point penality that affected the match it would have been very unjust.

Yeah, obviously enforcing the rules would be awful.

At least we've moved on from "nobody objects" to "people only object because they're jealous, they don't really mind".

We're making progress!

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:But that is the most amazing bit of it all:

Talking about the opportunity to set a "shot clock" on court measuring the time taken:

“It would be nice to have that, but I guess Rafa would push against it,” Jürgen Melzer of Austria, who is ranked No. 11, said, referring to Nadal. “I think it’s a good idea because then nobody would complain about it anymore.”

I remember a joker commenting on my article on this topic, suggesting that the players would voice their discontent if they were upset about it.

Just wonder what could happen if some of the big names decide to come out......

hawkeye wrote:Wow! Ljubicic has it in for Nadal. I suppose all players are more irritating when they're winning. As for pre-match delays strange that no-one was upset when Murray left the court for something as soon as he arrived for his match with Nadal. The commentaters just laughed and said "wonder what he forgot". I wonder what would be said if Nadal forgot something...

As for Nadals time warning. I was just pointing out that in that particular case it was wrong. If it had lead to a point penality that affected the match it would have been very unjust.

There's a big difference between Murray possibly forgetting something and therefore causing a delay and the Nadal pre-match ritual.

The first was presumably inadvertant since Murray does not have a track record of doing this. The second, however, is persistent and deliberate. Why does Nadal have to keep his opponents waiting in the corridor for 10 mins extra? Whatever his rituals are, is it too much too ask for him to start them 10 mins earlier? Ditto before the coin toss. I won't even bother with the other delays as they have been discussed ad nauseum.

I can only think of one reason for this behaviour - gamesmanship.

I agree with the point about his time wasting resulting in a poorer spectacle. This is after all a show, entertainment, and thus should not be spoilt by such tactics. I found myself switching channels on many occasions just to use up the time Nadal wastes between points!

So Nadal wins because he plays slower than his opponants would like? Also when he plays people switch channels because he is not entertaining and produces such a poor spectacle? Ha Ha Ha!

Also why does Murray get such a free ride. Was it the last time he played Nadal he delayed the match by half an hour - beyond the time when according to the rules he should have been defaulted? He was being advised prior to the semi final match by McEnroe amongst others to do anything possable to disrupt Nadal and get a win. He also had a few visits from trainer without obvious injury at the start of that match.

Nadal has his rituals but they appear to help his self focus rather than a deliberate attempt to disrupt an opponant. IMO this self focus has helped make him the great player that he is. Many players would do well to adopt this self focus rather than wasting energy worrying about what Nadal is doing and effort thinking of ways to disrupt his play. Whether they like it or not he is playing within the rules.

"Murray - He was being advised prior to the semi final match by McEnroe amongst others to do anything possable to disrupt Nadal and get a win. He also had a few visits from trainer without obvious injury at the start of that match"

If you believe all you read and make 2+ 2= 5 then you must believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden

Come on HE, you shoudl know by now that Nadal's time taking is a much needed routine to recuperate enough O2 between rallies. He has a very physical game and his time between points is vital to his success.

The last time Nadal played well within 20 sec was in Miami 2005 final where he lost a 5 setter v Federer after having lead 2 sets to love but lost the last 6 games of the match. 3 weeks later he and Toni implemented an orchestrated routine to measure 30+sec between rallies in MC.


It's all there on Youtube if you really wanted to check!

Doesn't really bother me that he takes time inbetween points, 20 seconds isn't really enough to be honest

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Doesn't really bother me that he takes time inbetween points, 20 seconds isn't really enough to be honest

What do you mean it's not enough? Not enough for running marathons on every point but It is enough for playing tennis as the 100 years of history of the game can prove.

I actually think it would add a lot to the game to have those 20s enforced. Djoko is showing why they are very important. Cause though he takes as much time as Nadal more or less, for him it is enough, for Nadal it isn't. This is why it's Nadal that is forced in taking the risky shots then.

If we were applying the 20s rule strictly, Nadal woudl have to take more risk against the other players too, including Federer. and that may have changed some results as this Miami 2005 final clearly shows.

Yea but if you play too fast you make more mistakes...

Tenez wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Doesn't really bother me that he takes time inbetween points, 20 seconds isn't really enough to be honest

What do you mean it's not enough? Not enough for running marathons on every point but It is enough for playing tennis as the 100 years of history of the game can prove.

I actually think it would add a lot to the game to have those 20s enforced. Djoko is showing why they are very important. Cause though he takes as much time as Nadal more or less, for him it is enough, for Nadal it isn't. This is why it's Nadal that is forced in taking the risky shots then.

If we were applying the 20s rule strictly, Nadal woudl have to take more risk against the other players too, including Federer. and that may have changed some results as this Miami 2005 final clearly shows.

So you think Djokovic is fitter and plays a more physical game than Nadal as he doesn't need quite so long to recover between points. Don't you think that more skillful and talented players such as Nadal who don't play such a physical game should be allowed to compete. Strict enforcement of such a limited time for recovery between points will only help the more "physical" players. This is not the sort of tennis that all viewers want to see.

I don't think tennis players should be allowed to use towels after every point like Nadal thinks he's entitled to it just annoys the other player who wants to get on with their serve. Bringing in the time restriction is not the answer, allowing them to use a towel after EVERY point should be disallowed.

I do not relish slugfest and baseline bashing, I will rather prefer more artistic and skillful tennis.

But as Del Potro proved baseline bashing can win you a slam at the USO, to be honest Roger used to baseline bash a lot of the USO before 2008.

So you think Djokovic is fitter and plays a more physical game than Nadal as he doesn't need quite so long to recover between points. Don't you think that more skillful and talented players such as Nadal who don't play such a physical game should be allowed to compete. Strict enforcement of such a limited time for recovery between points will only help the more "physical" players. This is not the sort of tennis that all viewers want to see.

Very surprised to read this HE, or I don't quite uderstand what you mean! Djoko is the less physical player of th etwo. His game is much more energy "friendly". THis is why Nadal needs to shorten the rallies versus Djoko. It takes a lot from Nadal to keep rallying with Djoko. He consumes more energy to serve and hit FH at the same pace. He also spends more energy moving around than Djoko. By taking the ball earlier, Djoko is using Nadal's energy and can guide the ball better, dictating a lot of the rallies. THis is why Djoko would not need to take as much time as Rafa between the points.

Nadal is less skillfull than many players out there and this is why he is so dependant on his physique.

Atleast Roger has variety and he does use slice and single handed backhand and drop shot and not to forget the tweener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UmuHna-mNs&feature=related

" I dont take too much time between points" was that a dig at nole and nadal.

The one 'twitch' that makes me really is the need to towel down between waiting for a first serve that ploughs into the net and receiving a second serve - sorry, but that is not excessive physical exertion!

There appears to be two issues here; time taken between points, which is covered in the laws, and delaying the toss by a player having to observe rituals and ‘tics’ which (very probably) isn’t covered specifically in the rules. Most players seem to be keen to get to the toss and prepare themselves quickly to do so, so I’m guessing that Nadal is very much the culprit here and does seem to have so many rituals that had he have been born British he would have made a marvellous cricketer (I'm thinking Jonathon Trott before facing each and every ball!). I don’t think he is trying to gain an unfair advantage here; I do genuinely think that he is as much a slave to it as his opponent who is forced to wait by the net themselves is.

The time taken between points issue should be more clear cut as it is specifically dealt with in the rules; It appears to the ‘policing’ of the rules that is not standard. Am I right in saying that this is monitored solely by the umpire without any help from technology? Once this happens then a uniform approach becomes more difficult. I’m sure cricket umpires apply a greater scrutiny to a player’s bowling action if, anecdotally, he has a dodgy action; which makes it surprising that Nadal is not penalised more. Would it be possible to set up a system whereby a timer is started on the completion of a point which would cause an alarm if it isn’t recorded that a player has served within a pre-arranged time period? I guess the problem would be that the alarm and the serve would come at very much the same time which would break up the natural flow of the game

What about the women's final when Sharapova repeatedly kept turning her back on Kvitova when she was about to serve ? The receiver is supposed to play to the server's speed. It was pretty unsporting, I thought.

Whatever the rules say, tennis is certainly no longer a "gentlemen's game".

Federer did conduct himself impeccably over his 10 years of playing despite an already extremely competitive sport.

For those few tennis fans who care as much for the way to winning as the wining itself, Federer, might well be one of the last real sport hero. Glad he is also the one with the best record.

sirfredperry wrote: It was pretty unsporting, I thought.

A real disgrace. Glad she lost!

Tenez wrote:Whatever the rules say, tennis is certainly no longer a "gentlemen's game".

Federer did conduct himself impeccably over his 10 years of playing despite an already extremely competitive sport.

For those few tennis fans who care as much for the way to winning as the wining itself, Federer, might well be one of the last real sport hero. Glad he is also the one with the best record.

That is exactly how I feel Tenez

sirfredperry wrote:What about the women's final when Sharapova repeatedly kept turning her back on Kvitova when she was about to serve ? The receiver is supposed to play to the server's speed. It was pretty unsporting, I thought.

Such a shame that a player doesn't try just serving the ball, at which point the Umpire will call for it to be replayed because he'she isn't ready, at which point the server can ask why they weren't ready given the game is to be played at the servers pace.

It would kick off the debate.

Oh, if only Jimmy Connors was still playing - this would happen, plus the water bottles would be kicked over at changeovers.

Yes, I think Rafa might have more than met his match with dear ol' Jimbo and Johnny Mac - I don't think they would have been inhibited by the 'such a humble sort of cove' routine

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Yea but if you play too fast you make more mistakes...

You make more mistakes if you run out of breath, but that's the whole point.
A player should be rewarded for making the opponent run more than he does, because this proves he has the better shots, ergo: the better tennis player.

I wouldn't want tennis to turn into some strange spectacle where one player can effectively win two points by running the other into the ground and preventing them being ready for the next. That would be awful. That's why I don't have a problem if the Umpire lets them take longer after an epic or two.

My point is where a player repeatedly changes the flow of the match to accomodate their requirements because that's how he plays the game.

I see Nadal doing the latter, and that's my problem with him and why I want to see the rules enforced.

Just another Nadal hater bogbrush

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Just another Nadal hater bogbrush

I'm not just "another" anything mate.

Tsonga interview piece after his defeat v Nadal at Miami 2010:

roughly translated....


JWT: The bottom line is that I am playing better but I don't have that extra sparkle in my game which will take me to the final instead of the 1/4F, which gives me an 0 out 8 BPs like I had against Nadal. I need to at least convert 3 or 4 of those BPs. I have the impression to have been more solid, less breathless than him on some of the points, to have made him run a bit more. But he takes one minute between each point so it's clear that it is useless at the end...but it is good to see that, for the clay season, I can hurt him on the long rallies...

Bit by bit the myth that nobody cares about the time violations is being destroyed.