The English / British anthem query?

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Why do English teams only sing the first verse of Gad save the Queen? Any known reason why they dont sing verses 2 and 3?

Here you are Hood

The land of my fathers, the land of my choice,
The land in which poets and minstrels rejoice
The land whose stern warriors were true to the core
While bleeding for freedom of yore

(Chorus)

Wales! Wales! fav'rite land of Wales!
While sea her wall, may naught befall
To mar the old language of Wales.

Old mountainous Cambria, the Eden of bards,
Each hill and each valley, excite my regards;
To the ears of her patriots how charming still seems
The music that flows in her streams

My country tho' crushed by a hostile array,
The language of Cambria lives out to this day;
The muse has eluded the traitors; foul knives,
The harp of my country survives

Briton is a descriptive term for a memeber of an ill defined "pre Saxon" ethnic group, British is a modern nationality that only came into existance in the 18th century.
Britain is the the mainland Island (a geographic non political entity), Great Britain the teritories of the United Kingdom ..which is part of the nation of the United Kingdom of Great Briatin and Northern Ireland ( a politcaly defiend entity). Some of the channel islands are independant of this, others arent.
The name comes from the Roman Britania, which didnt include all of modern Britain.

I dont really know where the confusion arises



The fact that most people dont actually know what their country is called suggests to me that its nnot wroth getting your knickers in a twist over the anthem. At least the England players can speak the language its in (well thats debatle in Tuilagis case), learning the words is another thing of course.

Intotouch wrote:What is a Briton? How is it different to being British? Sorry if this is really ignorant i just never heard that term before.

The Britons (or Welsh) were the inhabitants of the British islands before the Anglo-Saxons (Germanic tribes) landed in Kent and gradually pushed back the locals. A series of wars resulted which eventually resulted in them capturing the land that is now England, the Britons were pushed into what is now Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.
For the Saxons the word Welsh meant (foreign person), or basically not one of their race, which is what they called the native Britons.

Although syllable problems aside the lyrics to Advance Australia Fair's first verse are perfect. Describe the country and why it's awesome - done.

Cheers BridegendBoyo, wasn't a pop at the language by the way. As i say, top anthem and i really enjoy listening to it.

Its good because its one of the very few anthems that do not refer to god or monarchy

BridgendBoyo wrote:It's not a tribe name, just a collective term for the natives pre Anglo Saxon invasion I believe. The Romans named the Island Britannia.

Thats a good point actually. Theres little or no evidence that the various tribes ever considered themselevs to be a collective whole or defined themsleves as a suingle ethnic entity. The word Britons is imposed by Romans and modern history, and theres no descriptive term used by the people themselves it replaced. Just as the notion of a Celtic identity is purely a modern retrospective invention. Thats differs from the Romans who had a clear legal definition of who was and who wasnt, and a term for "others". Although of course you would still belong to an ethnic group and various other social groups even if you were a Roman. I guess thats the same as George North being English Cornish and Welsh whilct having a British nationality for legal purposes, Shane Howarth thinking he was Welsh is another thing entirely.

didn't think it was. Alot of Welsh people don't understand what it means either

What I read (or what I can remember) is that Britain is a corruption of something like Priteni which I think I had read elsewhere was something to do with painted people.

Wandering about some parts of Swansea its easy to see how little has changed over 2000 years...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:It's not a tribe name, just a collective term for the natives pre Anglo Saxon invasion I believe. The Romans named the Island Britannia.

Thats a good point actually. Theres little or no evidence that the various tribes ever considered themselevs to be a collective whole or defined themsleves as a suingle ethnic entity. The word Britons is imposed by Romans and modern history, and theres no descriptive term used by the people themselves it replaced. Just as the notion of a Celtic identity is purely a modern retrospective invention. Thats differs from the Romans who had a clear legal definition of who was and who wasnt, and a term for "others". Although of course you would still belong to an ethnic group and various other social groups even if you were a Roman. I guess thats the same as George North being English Cornish and Welsh whilct having a British nationality for legal purposes, Shane Howarth thinking he was Welsh is another thing entirely.

It is confusing, because there is literature (post roman) where the Welsh considered themselves 'Brythonic' (celtic term for British), Cymru did not appear until much later, when the Saxons became dominant.

Wow what a great forum! I'm learning loads today!

From what i have studied the languages and cultural similarities did form a common bond between Celtic tribes in ancient times. A couple of thousand years ago a person could travel between Ireland all the way to central Europe and still understand most of what was spoken around him/her. The Irish people speak Gaeilge and know our selves as Gaels and the Gaelic of Scotland and the descendents of the Celtic people there were/are also called the Gaels of Scotland in the Irish language. So the Celtic identity may be new but there were older identities/music/religion/culture that linked Celtic peoples. This sense of being linked can't be called a new invention.

Wales is called little Britain in Irish which i never understood but if the people there called themselves Britons then this makes sense.

What is Welsh for Irish or Scottish people/language?

Hood83, bear in mind that that's not a literal translation of 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau.' The opening line, for example, translates as 'the land of my fathers is dear to me.'

Let's not forget that the Celts are no more native to these islands than the Anglo-Saxons. We just moved in earlier than they did.

Luckless is right,

The term Gael comes from Gaul, the people who in habited northern France before the Romans pushed them out.

Celtic culture, language and heritage all began in northern France and spread north into what we now call Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Britany and Cornwall have strong celtic connections too.

Intotouch wrote:Wow what a great forum! I'm learning loads today!

Beware! Much of the 'history' has been copy and pasted from Wikipedia or has a certain, shall we say, "personal flavour" added to it!

BridgendBoyo wrote:It is confusing, because there is literature (post roman) where the Welsh considered themselves 'Brythonic' (celtic term for British), Cymru did not appear until much later, when the Saxons became dominant.

From what I can gather we were split into tribes prior to Roman Invasion in 48AD. If your from Bridgend like me you'd be part of the Silures tribe.
Tacticus - non atrocitate, non clementia mutabatur (changed neither by cruelty nor by clemency).
Thats what their leader wrote after they couldnt beat us!

Yr Alban: Scotland
Iwerddon: Ireland

My Welsh is very basic. Im sure the Welsh speakers could help you out more

AlynDavies wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:It is confusing, because there is literature (post roman) where the Welsh considered themselves 'Brythonic' (celtic term for British), Cymru did not appear until much later, when the Saxons became dominant.

From what I can gather we were split into tribes prior to Roman Invasion in 48AD. If your from Bridgend like me you'd be part of the Silures tribe.
Tacticus - non atrocitate, non clementia mutabatur (changed neither by cruelty nor by clemency).
Thats what their leader wrote after they couldnt beat us!

Rhondda born, Bridgend bred. I am Silurian
The Romans called us Britons, Post roman the natives identified themselves with this and used the term Brython (Britons). It was after the saxon invasion were they called the inhabitants as wallsch (foreigners). It wasnt until a few hundred years later where the Welsh, Cymru term became more popular way of describing themselves than Brython

AlynDavies wrote: non clementia mutabatur (changed neither by cruelty nor by clemency).
Thats what their leader wrote after they couldnt beat us!

Yeah only cos you took a quick lineout


Intersting point regarding the English flag, that its only been sidely used at sporting events since the 1996 soccer european cup where england played scotland at home. Prior to that the Union flag ( like the Bristh anthem) was mostly used. Was this case at Twickenham rugby too? I guess the flag fullstop isnt and wasnt waved much at all in the ameture era and the whole face painting thing is certainly new.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yeah only cos you took a quick lineout


Intersting point regarding the English flag, that its only been sidely used at sporting events since the 1996 soccer european cup where england played scotland at home. Prior to that the Union flag ( like the Bristh anthem) was mostly used. Was this case at Twickenham rugby too? I guess the flag fullstop isnt and wasnt waved much at all in the ameture era and the whole face painting thing is certainly new.

Well spotted we have come slightly off topic since we were discussion the 2nd and 3rd verses of the English national anthem!

Maybe we should adopt that tune that Sir Clive wanted for the 2005 Lions tour?

How did it go again???

Davie wrote:

johnpartle wrote:Jerusalem is a bit too heavy on the religion and melodrama for me.

On the contrary, despite it being sung at the recent Royal Wedding, many senior church officials try to dissuade it being sung at weddings as they claim it is a song, not a hymn and is actually too much of a celebration of a country rather than a God. Also, the "dark Satanic mills" are often thought to be a reference to either Methodist churches or CofE churches depending on whose analysis you read. The words were originally written by Blake as a poem and only later set to music by Parry. It would seem a good choice to me

The most common interpretation of dark Satanic Mills is in reference to the Industrial Revolution. Blake was certainly pretty critical of othordox organised religion, but he was fervent in his religous beliefs, which peppered his work and the concept of Jesus was core to (God as an entity by comparison was almost dismissed). I've not heard Jerusalem claimed to be "too much of a celebration of a country rather than a God" before, that sounds more like the "heretical" comments from the Bishop of Hulme directed at I Vow To Thee. It's certainly true that a few vicars in the CoE want to class Jerusalem as a song rather than a hymn, but that's the case for a number of pieces down to the more technical issue that they're not actual prayers to God, which a hymn should specifically be.

The main point I was making was that Jerusalem is undoubtedly very religous based and laden with accompanying iconography. Given the divisive nature of religion and that the most recent major YouGov poll on the subject returned 53% claiming to be Christian and the follow up question only 29% claiming to consider themselves actually 'religous', using an anthem that is based on a poem that tells the story of Jesus arriving in Glastonbury to create a religous centre and calls for the gathering of spiritual weapons to fight for a Christian centric future doesn't seem the most inclusively inspiring way to go.

At the Olympic Games and other sports events, where competitors from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland belong to the same GB team, the anthem at medal ceremonies is God Save the Queen.

If there was a GB rugby union team, presumably the anthem would also be God Save the Queen.

But in rugby union England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are separate teams and great rivals. England should pick a tune that is not the GB anthem.

Intotouch wrote:

What is Welsh for Irish or Scottish people/language?

The Welsh for an Irishman is Gwyddel. The Celtic languages are divided into c-Goidelic (Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx) and p-Goidelic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton). The division is based on the fact that in the c-Goidelic languages, 'son' is mac and in the p-Goidelic languages, 'son' is (or was) map. Welsh for 'son' now is mab, but in surnames the prefix is ap, hence Anglicised surnames like Powell (ap Hywel) and Preece or Price (ap Rhys).

The truth of what was happening 1000BC to 1000AD is very poorly known. Ideas change as quickly as the tides. I've got two books on British history and both look at two separate genetic studies of the people in rural towns who's families have lived there for at least around 150 years (before that people didn't move around much). One found there to be a difference as you go from North Wales to East Anglia (looking a groups along the line between). He's the guy suggested a link between the Basques and the celts. He thinks the celts came up the West coast from west France/Spain and the English came up the East coast from Germany, Belgium, Denmark, etc.

The other was more general across the whole of the UK and Ireland. It found that there was about 10-20% germanic DNA in England (depending on where you were) and 5-10% in the rest of the UK. Ireland was the least germanic. Bear in mind this was result of Angles, Saxons, Danes and Normans. Basically there was very little difference. It was the leaders who changed not the people.

The interesting one is the Old English language. Studies of it show that it separated from the German spoke in Saxony, etc way BEFORE the Saxon invasion. It was closer to the separation between mainland German and Scandinavian German. It's suggested that the people in Eastern Britain have spoken a Germanic language a long time before the Romans invaded.

But who knows. Anyone who says they do is either lying or miss-guided. Or has invented a time machine

Oh and the word Wales was specifically related to Romanised foreigners and possibly had more to do with the fact the Welsh were Christians way for the Anglo-Saxons were.

Maybe someone should start a pole on which anthem the English fans would like to sing. It seems to me from reading this that most people would prefer another. Who knows, maybe you could start a campaign and in time change it to one you love.

It does seem like a dull song to me. I don't think that singing more verses is a great idea.

Carpe Diem wrote:I believe the Scottish tried something similar a few years ago against England. Tooled them up with swords and everything!

Indeed, that was for the 2006 Calcutta Cup match. They dimmed the stadium lights and lit then lit the torches, it was rather theatrical.
But it worked, we got a shock win, and stopped a potential Grand Slam for England that year

"What is it with Mel Gibson"
I do agree he does seem to have a bone to pick with the English - but it could be that 1. (and mainly) he's totally off his rocker and 2. He's Australian and probably doesn't like the English history that much.

with regards to the article I absolutely loath the English national anthem, and I don't think that an English national anthem chosen by and English queen about an English queen to represent the British people can be called a British national anthem.

But I also think it's much more moving and inspiring than the French one...

"What is it with Mel Gibson"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClILUKaVhqA

Isn't Priteni taken from the Mabinogi (Ansesters) and was one of the names of one of the 4 old Welsh Kings that the myths are based on?

Intotouch wrote:Maybe someone should start a pole on which anthem the English fans would like to sing. It seems to me from reading this that most people would prefer another. Who knows, maybe you could start a campaign and in time change it to one you love.

Team England did this for the last Commonwealth Games. Jerusalem won the poll, though only 3 options were given.

http://www.weareengland.org/news.asp?itemid=327&itemTitle=England+announce+victory+anthem+for+Delhi+chosen+by+the+public%21&section=115&sectionTitle=News


Other polls have since produced different results.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/poll/2010/oct/05/english-national-anthem-commonwealth-games

Smirnoffpriest wrote:"What is it with Mel Gibson"
I do agree he does seem to have a bone to pick with the English - but it could be that 1. (and mainly) he's totally off his rocker and 2. He's Australian and probably doesn't like the English history that much.

with regards to the article I absolutely loath the English national anthem, and I don't think that an English national anthem chosen by and English queen about an English queen to represent the British people can be called a British national anthem.

But I also think it's much more moving and inspiring than the French one...

Except it's not an English anthem about an English queen, it's the de facto national anthem of the United Kingdom and some of its territories about the constitutional monarch of sixteen sovereign states known as the Commonwealth realms, including the United Kingdom.

Yes its the de facto anthem of the UK, but wasn't chosen by the celtic nations it was chosen by the English, sung about an English queen, and written by an English man, and then decided by an English Parliment that it should be the anthem for Britain/UK and hence why it's the English national anthem as well as the UK national anthem.

But my point was that I don't know of any Welsh men (mainly Welsh as I know majority of Welsh), Scots and Irish who like let alone embrace God Saved the Queen - most hate it.

god save the queen is such a dull anthem- i am sorry but had to be said, and also the fact that england use it when it is the british anthem, also while i am on a rant i hate the fact that if a welshman/women, scottishman/women or northen irishman/women win an event in the olympics or f1 then it is god save the queen that is played. GRRRRRRRR

welshy824 wrote:i hate the fact that if a welshman/women, scottishman/women or northen irishman/women win an event in the olympics or f1 then it is god save the queen that is played. GRRRRRRRR

It's their anthem as they are British athletes, representing Britain. When you see them up on the podium, the anthem comes on and they are crying tears of pride I don't think they would say that they aren't British and hate the idea.

welshy824 wrote:god save the queen is such a dull anthem- i am sorry but had to be said, and also the fact that england use it when it is the british anthem, also while i am on a rant i hate the fact that if a welshman/women, scottishman/women or northen irishman/women win an event in the olympics or f1 then it is god save the queen that is played. GRRRRRRRR

So you dislike it because England use it even though its the Bristish anthem and you dslike it becuse its used as the British anthem?


Its the only anthem I know of that got to number 1 in the charts, cant be that unpopular

To be honest, I don't think England should use it, I think it should be saved for when a team/athlete is representing Great Britain (for example, if Britain puts out a rugby team for the 7s in the Olympics).

I would much rather that there was no official singing of the national anthem at rugby matches, just get on with the games and the crowd could then sing whatever songs they want.

robbo277 wrote:To be honest, I don't think England should use it, I think it should be saved for when a team/athlete is representing Great Britain (for example, if Britain puts out a rugby team for the 7s in the Olympics).

I would much rather that there was no official singing of the national anthem at rugby matches, just get on with the games and the crowd could then sing whatever songs they want.

Agree completely.

I'd be happy to remove all anthems, dancing and carpets. Just blow the whistle and get on with it.

Agree with above, when were anthems first played before internationals?

I know that in 1905 the Welsh team started singing 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau' in response to New Zealand's Haka and the crowd joined in. Whether that was the origin of anthems being played before matches, I'm too lazy to find out.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I know that in 1905 the Welsh team started singing 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau' in response to New Zealand's Haka and the crowd joined in. Whether that was the origin of anthems being played before matches, I'm too lazy to find out.

Lets just blame on teh Welsh then, its much easier

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yes its the de facto anthem of the UK, but wasn't chosen by the celtic nations it was chosen by the English, sung about an English queen, and written by an English man, and then decided by an English Parliment that it should be the anthem for Britain/UK and hence why it's the English national anthem as well as the UK national anthem.

But my point was that I don't know of any Welsh men (mainly Welsh as I know majority of Welsh), Scots and Irish who like let alone embrace God Saved the Queen - most hate it.

Well BedfordWelsh has already posted on here that he sings GSTQ as the British anthem. So there's one for you.

No doubt Bedford would be accused of being a Dic Siôn Dafydd.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Although I have and always will be Welsh first I am also an Ex Member of Her majestys Armed Forces and proud to be British.

When I go to a Wales England game I stand there and proudly sing both Anthems.

I sing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau as I am a proud Welshman and I sing GSTQ as I am proud to have served my Country for over 26yrs at home and abroad in a lot of places damn hotter than Barry Island.

Just to show I'm not making up and putting words in his mouth

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

So you dislike it because England use it even though its the Bristish anthem and you dslike it becuse its used as the British anthem?


Its the only anthem I know of that got to number 1 in the charts, cant be that unpopular

no i dislike it as there is no passion, i mean you rarely see an englishman singing the english anthem with tears in their eyes yet you often see this with other anthems. also what has charts got to do with anything???

this is me but i dislike gstq as it i boring (my opinion)
and the fact that it makes me feel that when i hear gstq it to me is more the english national anthem, not the british so it means me less willing to sing it. (not the fact i have anything against the englihs its just you dont get english people singin land of my fathers)

welshy824 wrote:i dislike it as there is no passion, i mean you rarely see an englishman singing the english anthem with tears in their eyes yet you often see this with other anthems.

How new to rugby are you? You clearly never watched Lawrence Dallaglio singing the anthem, nor Jon Sleightholme clutching the red rose on his jersey.

The only thing I have issue with GstQ is that I do associate it more with England than Britain. I find it so weird when GBR win Gold in say athletics and they play GstQ I find it really weird to listen to or feel pride just because I hear it more often than not associated with England. Maybe that's a fault with me, but I really do think England should have an anthem that's different to the British one.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:
How new to rugby are you? You clearly never watched Lawrence Dallaglio singing the anthem, nor Jon Sleightholme clutching the red rose on his jersey.

well i have been playing rugby for coming on 10 years now (i am playing for youth next season) so in comparison to many on here not long but thats two people from decades of rugby (i dont know who jon sleightholme is) i am talking about the actual fans though, i personally have never seen english fans crying when singing GSTQ whereas every welsh game you see grown welshmen putting their heart into the song and tears treaming down their faces. THATS THE PASSION i am talking about

Tell me, have you ever been surrounded by Englishmen when they've been singing their anthem, or just by Welshmen when we've been singing ours?

fair point, but i mean even on t.v you always see a shot of welsh people putting their heart and soul into whereas you dont see english people putting in the same passion.

saying that the english anthem is about a person, who many english people dont actually like, whereas the welsh anthem is about wales as a land and its history etc