Ireland. The unnecessary chaff in our prospective RWC squad. The truth as I see it.

Players who should not travel. Players who are there for reasons, other than a system based on meritocracy. And some players. who are there, because we are desperate and seemingly - have not had time to find their adequate, backup replacements, in time for the RWC. Players, who could be easily replaced over Summer - without adversely affecting our squads' depth-of-strength.

Andrew Trimble – An average provincial player, who has never really shown for his country. Had the chance 4 years ago, when he was potentially better than Bowe. Since been passed out and now obsolete at International level. Earls (Wing,FB & Centre), Fitzgerald (Wing & Centre) and McFadden (Wing & Centre) – are far superior and proven players at the top-end. So no need for him.

Paddy Wallace - see Trimble. But even worse. His time is long gone on the international stage. We don't need him to waste a vital space on the plane, or on the bench as a backup 10. Or as an average international centre anymore. I believe Kidney has seen the light there. Check his non-usage of him in the 6-N. Goodbye Paddy. Thanks a lot.

Dennis Leamy. Was good. Really good at 6 or 8. Close to World class in his pomp. A huge favourite of mine in the past. But, has never been the same, after an injury and a long lay-off. Munster think so too and that's good enough for me.

John Hayes. Love im. Love what he's done for us over the years. But, do I really need to explain? The hulk that is Buckley - on the plane.

Horan. No comment.

If and when, any of those players make the plane, expect the SH and better NH teams – to cut a wry smile. Me? I'm just embarrassed some are still in the mix for selection at this stage.

This post may seem Leinster-centric to some with blind vision. But. It's not. It's just the truth.

OK. No Shaggy. Even if he is presently better, played at a higher level for 10 years, won 2 x HC Cups in the last 3 years and has proven to be more effective than Fitzgerald, Trimble, Earls & Bowe – in reality. And he has just had a knee-operation. Will that serve to give some balance to this statement?

TBH. I don’t care. It is still all true. If you actually care about our country's hopes in the RWC and step back, be objective and think about it – I hope you will see it too.

You all know it makes sense. I pray Kidney does too. Leave them behind Deccie. Let them go and let's grow. Prove it in the Summer Tests.

Nah you're Leinster centric. Trimble is a better wing than Fitzgerald.

If Wallace doesn't go who is your third FH?

Cue mad Ulster fans. I agree with you to an extent. I don't really rate Wallace but do think Trimble could be useful on the plane. However if he is seen as just a winger than you have to go with McFadden who can cover two (I think he has played out half in the AIl) aswell as kick goals. Leamy could well go but he has proven to be a liability recently giving away stupid penalties.

The Great Aukster wrote:Nah you're Leinster centric. Trimble is a better wing than Fitzgerald.

If Wallace doesn't go who is your third FH?

Ausk,
Do we need a 3rd FH? If Sexton and ROG both get injured - we are phhoked anyway. Besides - McFadden can kick as well - if not better, than PW. He is also a far better rugby player. Which may come in handy.

As for Trimble vs Fitzgerald... Im sorry, but one is a Lion... one is not. For a very good reason.

Come again.

Okay, just posting before I even read the content. I think this will be an amusing read and even more amusing will be the response.

Amusing? Im deadly serious. Its our country's hopes I'm talking about here.

Get rid of the chaff, harvest the wheat and reap the rewards. That's normally what happens come end of Summer. Doesn't it? Maybe I'm wrong.

No, I'm not.

Do Ireland need a third FH?

Well all you need is one knock to Sexton and then there is a dilemma.
1. Does JS go on the bench and risk aggravating it if he has to come on?
2. Do Ireland not have any cover on the bench and just let BOD/Darce/TOL/McFadden slot in at 10 should ROG pick up a knock in the game?
3. Send Sexton home and fly in Humphreys?

IMO none of those options are acceptable to such a pivotal position, when Wallace has proven himself to be a viable option at FH. It is also a matter of conjecture whether he or McFadden is the better player at 12. Neither he nor McFadden have been able to displace D'Arcy this year but at least Wallace had kept Darce out of the 6N GS team, so Kidney obviously rates him.


With regard to Trimble and Fitzgerald, did you miss Trimble in the England game, and Fitz in all the rest?

While I believe you're speaking the truth, it's still amusing as I know you're winding up for a good strong impassioned debate.

The only one I would really disagree with is Trimble. I personally think that he should start on the left wing. I think it was ummm who said it after the England game that he gave balance to our back three which we hadn't seen in a long time.

Actually, when we toured NZ and Aus last summer, he was one of our better players and I thought it was a real shame that he was then dropped for the AIs.

Fitzgerald isn't fit to lace the boots of the elf that laces Andrew Trimble's boots.

Andrew Trimble > Luke Fitzgerald

So the other teams at the WC will tremble at the mention of Fitzgerald's name, a player who has struggled for form both provincially and internationally all season. If he's so good why didn't DK just switch him and Earls for the England 6n match instead of bringing Trimble in. Oh I know why - it because he was Poopie!

As for the Lions tour idea, I think you're reading a bit much into it. Where the lions to tour this summer would either Fitz or Trimble make it? Eh no.

Whatever happens and whoever gets taken, one thing is guaranteed amongst the array of rugby followers on the NH boards: there will be a virtual 6Ns taking place in the antipodes this autumn.

And the usual array of dismal comments on the lines of 'my team is better than your'n' so nah.

"Will that serve to give some balance to this statement?"

Nope. Not at all. A fair assessment of Fitzgerald's rubbish form this season might, though. Rather than trading on his past glories, which you made clear in your paragraph about Leamy you don't think is acceptable.

I think you're way of the mark on Trimble who is arguably the best winger we have. He's more proven as a winger at the top level than Fitzgerald or McFadden so I'm not sure what you are on about.

Wallace is there to cover fly half. If Rog or Sexton get a short term injury then we would have no fly half cover on the bench. Personally I would prefer McFadden but we need a 3rd fly half so it's Wallace or humphreys.

Hayes and Horan have been playing well and we're not exactly blessed with depth in the front row. Agree on Leamy though.

Rodders,Fitz is proven at the highest level. He has Lions caps. I do agree that Trimble is as good as Fitz. However Fitz is capable of cover all the backline positions. Unlike Tirmble.

Thomond he's never been proven in the centre and we saw the disaster he was during the 6n as a fb. He's a winger pure and simple.

Gibbo I still can't get over you calling Trimble an average provincial player, I hope for your sake you're trying your hand at the art of wummery otherwise this thread will turn to chaos when Geoff and Notch see what you've done...

Is Geoff even on these boards? Haven't seen him around and I think we would all like to know what Ferris has got involved in.........

Speaking of which should Ferris go? No questioning his talent but are his injuries too frequent to waste a selection on him? I personally think he should go as the possiblilty of SOB and Heaslip starting with 1F to come on is mindblowing.

Yeah Geoff is on here but I suspect that he can't, won't and shouldn't make any statement on the Ferris incident. I'm sure it will be in the media in due course.

Fitzgerald has never delivered on the International stage, unlike Trimble. I think Fitz is talented and the criticism he's been getting is over the top but Trimble has had a better season.

Trimble has also played better than Fitzgerald at centre for Ireland so I don't agree about Fitzgerald being versatile. Fitzgerald was terrible at full back and doesnt have the skills to play centre. He's an inferior winger to Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Horgan and possibly McFadden too.

C-

Shows some potential, but must try and make his efforts less obvious.

Notch wrote:

C-

Shows some potential, but must try and make his efforts less obvious.

Let me put it this way- if there was a World Cup for wumming, this definitely wouldn't get you on the plane

Ah, c'mon, Notch. I'm hearing a variant on a common schoolyard chant - "Bite! Bite! Bite! Bite! Bite! Bite!"

Notch wrote:

Notch wrote:

C-

Shows some potential, but must try and make his efforts less obvious.

Let me put it this way- if there was a World Cup for wumming, this definitely wouldn't get you on the plane

Ignoring the wumming (1/10 Gibbo). (And sorry Gibbo, Shane Jennings won't be going to the world cup).

I thought the Trimble, Earls, Bowe back 3 were a great combination against England. Andrew Trimble has improved his skills no end - even had a go with a chip & chase and put in some good defensive work. Ashton didn't get a sniff down his side of the pitch.

As for Leamy, I think a lot of you are reading far too much into D Ryan starting at 6 ahead of him. I think a lot of it is more to do with planning for next year and whether Ryan is good enough to be Quinny's replacement. I'm sure Declan Kidney wanted to see him playing there as well.

Jaysus Gibson, you really went for it here didn't you?

In all fairness, Trimble was our best player of the summer tour last year (yes, yes everyone was injured but he still was) and he played very well in the last game of the six nations (as did our back three as a whole). Meanwhile Fitzgerald, god love him, has been awful for months now. Others have alluded to this myth that he is versatile when in reality he's just not. Sure he's been played in different positions but he's been average at best when played anywhere other than on the wing. To be honest I'd go as far as to say Trimble has been our best wing this year. Well, maybe Earls might get that actually. But he's definitely been better than Bowe and Fitzgerald who have been disappointing and completely awful respectively this season.

A lot of people despise poor Paddy but he's not as bad as made out to be by the other provincial fans and he's not as good as made out to be by Ulster fans. But, say D'arcy is either injured or in France 6N form in the world cup, who goes to inside centre? I know you're screaming McFadden at me now, yeah? Well seeing as he hasn't played a game of note for Leinster at centre I don't see that happening. He has no experience of playing a game at inside centre in a big match at all so Paddy is the only viable replacement. As said by others, if ROG or Sexton gets injured we'd have to fly out Humphreys (who's apparently injured right now so maybe even Keatley?) and that is what makes Paddy of critical importance. He may not be test class at FH but he could fill in if we had no alternative to a reasonably acceptable standard.

Pains me to say that I absolutely agree with you on Denis Leamy. He was fantastic for us but, put it this way, you'd get evens on him getting a yellow card every time he plays, which is not good. He still could well go to the world cup though. SOB, Heaslip, Wally, Ferris (if fit) and who? Not Jennings :P His odds will increase even further if Ferris doesn't get fit.

The Bull got a penalty try off Leinster the other day, is he finished just yet? Ah he probably is. Mike Ross and Buckley will go certainly and Healy and Court the LH's leaving Horan at home. If it wasn't for Court (allegedly) covering TH as well I'd back Horan to go too. Still, our grand slam props should be respected, not ridiculed.

You've reeled a few of us in anyway Gibson so I'd maybe up Notch's C- to a C+. Be a little less obvious next time - I'm not Leinster centric but, lads, Fitzy is clearly so much better than Trimble - forgive the bad paraphrasing

It's true, putting Trimble in there first was a disastrous misstep. You've got to start out with the easy targets first and slip the more outlandish claims in at the end once the tide of indignation is rising and the critical thought declining.

When it comes to wumming, the lad has so much talent but he's gotten it all wrong here. He needs to go back, reassess and concentrate on all the things that made him such a good WUM. The August internationals are coming up fast and he needs to hit some good from before then.

Actually Trimble has done very well in his last few outings for Ireland. He's a certainty.

The line "If Sexton and ROG both get injured - we are phhoked anyway." does make me smile. Sure, we'll just write a kind note to the IRB asking them to excuse us from the rest of the tournament in that case

double post

mrsuperclear wrote:Pains me to say that I absolutely agree with you on Denis Leamy. He was fantastic for us but, put it this way, you'd get evens on him getting a yellow card every time he plays, which is not good. He still could well go to the world cup though. SOB, Heaslip, Wally, Ferris (if fit) and who? Not Jennings :P His odds will increase even further if Ferris doesn't get fit.

To put a bit of meat on that statement:

Career yellow cards for club

Denis Leamy (10 seasons): 4 Yellow Cards. (None this season 20 starts + 3 subs for Munster).

Jamie Heaslip (9 sesons); 8 YELLOW CARDS. (+1 RED international).

Sean O'Brien (3 seasons): 3 YELLOW CARDS (+ a citing and got away with a few things this season).

Furthermore, the Opti stats ranked Leamy the 7th best performing Forward in the Heineken Cup this years. (points given for tackles made, metres carried, number of carries etc). Sean O'Brien was ranked No. 1. David Wallace was in the same team, and didn't make the Top 10.

Bearing in mind that Leamy was playing in a pack where the scrum was going backwards, that is some stat.

double post

He mightn't get many cards but he still igves away penalties at times. Also has Heaslip really been playing for nine seasons?

Those are interesting stats Sin é but, just to contradict you slightly, Leamy did get a yellow against Italy in the six nations this year and does give away a hell of a lot of penalties to be fair. That's the reason I made that comment to be honest and it was slightly tongue in cheek.

mrsuperclear wrote:Those are interesting stats Sin é but, just to contradict you slightly, Leamy did get a yellow against Italy in the six nations this year and does give away a hell of a lot of penalties to be fair. That's the reason I made that comment to be honest and it was slightly tongue in cheek.

I was just doing the club yellows (as the info is readily available and it is over a long period of time).

Backrows give away a lot of penalties anyway - bet he is no way worse than Shane Jennings in particular (who doesn't get a lot of yellow cards), than any other forward. (Think Healy gave away 4/5 a match in one six nations. Horan would have a much better record there).

Leamy and Heaslip have played a similar number of games for their clubs, so their careers are comparable.

Leamy (Munster) 117 +21 games (4 Yellow Cards)
Heaslip (Leinster) 125 + 6 games (8 Yellow Cards)

Agree with pretty much everything bar Trimble. He's always done a good job in a green jersey IMO.

Indeed, Notch. Gibbo can fly out and address the other 21 players lining out that day and say, "sure we're shafted lads, that's that. Don't knock yer pans in, considering we're on a hiding to nothing." And we can go home in ignominy, put in their place by Gibbo's level-headed assessment.

What better preparation could there be for losing one of our OHs than simply hoping, really hard, that it doesn't happen?

Sin - this is an Internet chat forum. There is no place for facts here.

Paddy Wallace is an absolute must. If Sexton gets injured then ROG cannot be relied on. Wallace is essential back up at fly-half.

Andrew Trimble must travel as well. For me, Bowe and Fitzgerald should be our starting wingers. Aside from that, Earls is our only decent winger. Trimble is therefore a necessity not just as back up for Bowe or Fitzgerald, but as a player for less important matches. Ireland need to rest their best players.

Lads

Its Gibbo for crying out loud. We all know that he doesnt always mean what he says, but he damn well means to say it

I sort of decided this was Leinster propaganda when I got as far as Fitzgerald being a better option than Trimble.

Sorry but have you actually been watching them both play for their respective provinces this season?

As an Ulster fan I dont think you're actually far off on Paddy Wallace, he's a fantastic little player bit badly out of form much of which is down to injuries this season and I would far rather see Nevin Spence travel, although he has a shoulder problem now as well.

Wallace aint going to be used as third choice flyhalf.

Just to put "Fitzgerald is a Lion" into perspective, Tim Payne is a Lion, went to South Africa 2 years ago and can't even get into the Saxons now. He's behind Sheridan, Corbisiero, Stevens, Mullan, Marler, Nathan Catt and possibly a few others if we were selecting England loose-heads.

John Hayes is a Lion. Mike Ross isnt 8)

Notch wrote:Sadly I have to agree about Wallace. He's not the player he once was and really shouldn't be on the plane. McFadden is a better option and should nick his spot to NZ. But just as the IRFU have shafted Wallace on many occasions he may be able to get a place on the plane despite not really deserving one. I honestly can't wait until Luke Marhsall's talents mean we are able to put this tired old nag out to graze

Interesting to get an Ulster fans opinion Notch Yes I would agree with most of that and would have plenty of praise for Trimble who I think is an under rated talent

Trimble is top class in my opinion, as good a player for Ulster as Stephen Ferris. The question should be whether hes a better 14 than bowe rather than whether he should be on the plane or not.

red_stag wrote:

Notch wrote:Sadly I have to agree about Wallace. He's not the player he once was and really shouldn't be on the plane. McFadden is a better option and should nick his spot to NZ. But just as the IRFU have shafted Wallace on many occasions he may be able to get a place on the plane despite not really deserving one. I honestly can't wait until Luke Marhsall's talents mean we are able to put this tired old nag out to graze

Interesting to get an Ulster fans opinion Notch Yes I would agree with most of that and would have plenty of praise for Trimble who I think is an under rated talent

I'm suing you for libel.

P.S can you give me some advice about libel and what to do etc?

rodders,

While I don't agree about the difference between the two wing positions, you should be able both to the same level, Trimble has played on the left wing for Ireland nearly everytime he has played in that position.

No probs Notch. Basically you saying nice things about Luke Marshall and Fergus McFadden is fine. Your comments about Wallace are fine too. Libel is only an issue if the comments are factually incorrect So it would only be an issue if Wallace was actually a brilliant player.

Ouch! You are just too sharp for me on a Sunday night. I realistically need a few days to come up with a rejoinder.

Thats cool Notch I could imagine it would take several days to come up with a reason to have Paddy on the plane

Careful now

Andy Titterrell was a lion.

Though we can find common ground on Trimble, Notch. A fantastic player IMO.

Yes, he's sure to be on the plane and well deserved.

In truth, I think Paddy Wallace will be on the plane regardless of what we say or think. Unless he has a complete shocker or two in August.

Notch wrote: In truth, I think Paddy Wallace will be on the plane regardless of what we say or think. Unless he has a complete shocker or two in August.

So you said. I agreed with you.

red_stag wrote:Though we can find common ground on Trimble, Notch. A fantastic player IMO and one that deserves to play for a good side like Newport Gwent Dragons (my favourite team and 100% better than Munster).

Wow, this is a turn up for the books.