IRELAND: Who would YOU leave out of the 30 man RWC squad

Simple question, who would you leave out of the 30 man squad and why please?

Please think of things like forwards to backs splits, the need for certain types of player and so on.

The vote is multi-choice.

Provincial nonesense: Let's leave it out guys.

I think a lot depends on injury to Darcy. If he doesn't play, balance dictates trimble should play. Shouldn't leace out earls and Bowe, so does that mean you only need one additional fullback to earls?

Would leave Hayes, McLaughlin,and O'Leary at home definetly. Would probably leave Murray aswell as Flannery.

Kearney because he is rubbish and vastly overrated.

I voted Flannery, Leamy, Kearney, Murphy and McGlaughlin.

Flannery, Murphy and Kearney have played too little rugby for me so I can't see how they can be fit or on form. Leamy has had a poor season and Ryan takes McGlaughlins spot for me. However if Ferris is out I'd take McGlaughlin as well.

Not sure about TOL or Hayes but I left them in there. I'd probably leave Hayes for Buckley and TOL would be my 3rd choice SH behind Reddan and Murray.

Hayes (too old and not good enough) Leamy (poor form, not good enough and not good under pressure with discipline)----- definitely
Ryan (not good enough despite what the munster faithful say) Fitzgerald (hasnt showed anything since coming back from injury)-----probably

Forgot - O Leary, just not good enough plain and simple.

Hayes, Leamy, TOL, Flannery, Murphy, Tayto.

I voted to leave out Leamy, Murphy and McLaughlin.

That's not to say that I want Hayes, TOL, Fitzgerald and Flannery to definitely go. I just think that depending on injuries we may need some or all of them.

Forgot to mention re Kearney

Cannot tackle for toffee.

Hayes,McLaughlin,Ryan,Jennings and Fitzgerald.

Hold on,put the Bull back in at FB.
Better option that Kearney.

Boyne wrote:Hayes, Leamy, TOL, Flannery, Murphy, Tayto.

I voted, Hayes, McLaughlin, Leamy, TOL, Fitzgerald, keanrey, Flannery.

On a practical level, how should a 30 man squad breakdown for the rwc?
Tighthead/Loosehead 5
Hooker 3
Second row 3
Back row 5 (with 1 being able to step into second row if needed)
Scrum half 3
Outhalf 3
Centre 3
Wing 3
Fullback 2
Total 30

Is that how the split works or do we need more/less cover in certain positions? Are there positions that have a history of greater levels of injury for Ireland?

RoG. I just plain hate him!

Bandwagon-

It depends on the forwards/backs split
Some teams go for 16/14 and some go 17/13

I imagine due to our lack of top quality prop options that kidney will go with 16/14 and IF a prop gets an injury that rules him out of the tournament he can be replaced by someone outside of the squad as stated in the rules.

So that would be:

props 4
hooker 3
second row 3
backrow 6 (Ryan covering lock)
scrum half 3
outhalf 3 (Wallace covering centre)
centre 2
back-3 6

With that in mind according to the vote so far the players missing out are:
Hayes
Flannery
McLaughlin
Leamy
O'Leary
Murphy
Fitzgerald

Thanks Pete

Tighthead/Loosehead 4
Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Brett Wilkinson

Hooker 3
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Jerry Flannery, Damien Varley

Second row 3
Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Leo Cullen, Mick O'Driscoll

Back row 6
Jamie Heaslip, Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Sean O'Brien, Denis Leamy, Shane Jennings , Kevin McLaughlin, Mike McCarthy, Donncha Ryan

Scrum half 3
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomas O'Leary, Peter Stringer, Isaac Boss

Outhalf 3
Ronan O'Gara, Jonathan Sexton, Paddy Wallace, Ian Humphreys - shoulder

Centre 2
Gordon D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Nevin Spence - shoulder

Wing 4
Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Shane Horgan - knee

Fullback 2
Felix Jones, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy, Gavin Duffy
30

Going off the training squad so, I would definitely have the people in bold if fit. I think the players in italics are my favourites to make the squad but there positions are under threat. I think Hayes and Stringer are in line to make the rwc squad and I have them in ahead of the young pretenders. Hayes is immense, as good as the other options and will give it his all for the short time required. Stringer gives a better alternative for the scrum half options if needed and I would be lifted if we are down by less than a score to see Stringer and O'Gara come on to kick the team on for a win.

I agree with your decisions other than a couple.

kearney. I think Murphy should go.

O'leary. I think Stringer and Murray should go.

Hayes. I think Buckley should go for impact sub.

I will eat my hat if Stringer gets in ahead of Murray. I'm convinced the scrum halves will be Reddan, TOL and Murray.

Kearney will go but I don't think he should. I have suspicion Trimble may just miss out and McFadden and/or Fitzgerald will go.

No Stringer needs to go cos of his ability to be the impact sub/the speed injector

Pete I can only say what I see and I think that Reddan and TOL are nailed on. I think Murray will go and I can only see stringer getting in if TOL is injured.

For me Stringer and Reddan are the definites.

I think Mike McCarthy should go in the 2nd row/flanker niche. However I think Kevin McLoughhlin will go ahead of him and Ryan. McCarthy has played some blinding stuff this year brilliant performance against Ulster recently and is a real stand out player in a pretty mediocre team.

red_stag wrote:For me Stringer and Reddan are the definites.

+1

Kidney loves the idea of having a 9 who can and does completely change the game.

Interesting to note that from the vote McLaughlin is the least likely to go, and neither Kearney or Murphy look likey compared to Jones.

Murray is getting much less votes than O'Leary also.

Can't see McCarthy going myself and also look at what the public think. Ryan has got one of the lowest votes along with trimble, McFadden and Jennings.

Very interesting results here re: Jennings and McFadden

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Can't see McCarthy going myself and also look at what the public think. Ryan has got one of the lowest votes along with trimble, McFadden and Jennings.

Very interesting results here re: Jennings and McFadden

Be interesting to see what happens in the warm up matches. I reckon McCarthy will get some game time and will be a starter for Connacht V Ireland in that fixture. If he outplays his opponent on the day he'll make a real case for inclusion.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:For me Stringer and Reddan are the definites.

+1

Kidney loves the idea of having a 9 who can and does completely change the game.

Interesting to note that from the vote McLaughlin is the least likely to go, and neither Kearney or Murphy look likey compared to Jones.

Murray is getting much less votes than O'Leary also.

Guys I can't see how they can be. Stringer is now 3rd choice at Munster and TOL is not fit. Stringer had a chance in the 6N and was very poor. I really think he has slipped well down the pecking order and would be surprised if he goes. I don't think Kidney rates him that highly either and it was Kidney who dropped him at Munster for TOL. TOL will go if he is anyway fit as will Reddan. I don't see how he can justify taking Stringer whos had a poor season ahead of Murray.

Rodders, its due to fact that being a bench player is in itself a skill.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, its due to fact that being a bench player is in itself a skill.

+1

LUKE FITZGERALD - explanation not require

Blue- welcome buddy.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, its due to fact that being a bench player is in itself a skill.

Ha ha I wonder is that what Kidney tells paddy wallace to keep him happy .

The problem is lads other countries pick players on the because of what they can do on the pitch not for their talents at warming the bench

If theirs any doubts as to whether Stringer or anyone else can put in a top class 80 min performance then they shouldn't be going.

The point is that it's a tactical decision. Stringer coming on after 60mins means an injection of pace.

Rodders to be honest there are doubts whether any of our scrumhalves can produce a top class 80 minute perforamnce.

We have a group of average scrumhalves. Stringer offers a different option to any other scrumhalf, the alternatives aren't great and he brings a lot of experience.

Being a bench player IS a skill and there will come times when we need him.

I know that Pete but if O'leary's not a 100% and Reddan gets injured would you be happy for Stringer to play 70min + against SA or Australia bearing in mind he hasn't played much this year?

I don't think you can just bring a player based on getting 20 minutes out of him here and there. It's not like the 6N were you can just chop and change.

As I said Rodders I'd be no more worried or enthused than having him instead of the other options.

We have a 30 man squad and will be bringing 3 scrumhalves. He brings a bullet pass, a game changing ability from bench and bags of experience. He has his faults but so do the others too.

When I say he knows how to play from bench I don't mean thats all he can do. ROG is another great bench player. These guys don't need to warm into a game they can assess what they need to do when they come on.

Hmm rog is different stag as he's playing regularly and playing well too. Stringer definitely isn't in the form he was a year ago. If he plays well in the warm ups maybe but right now I'd far rather have Murray. If Reddan starts anyway TOL will be the bench scrum half and not Stringer.

ROG is different as both he and Sexton are playing pretty well.

I won't really care if Stringer doesn't go but I'd certainly have him on the bench.

It all comes down to injury - so I wouldn't take players who were unfit

... actually this is not strictly true. I'd take some players if I thought they were match-winners and could participate at some stage of the tournament.

Props - CH, MR, TC, TB
No point in taking five. Ross is the only one difficult to replace and the two reps are already there with him in case of a short term injury. Otherwise I'd fly someone in.

Hooker - RB, SC, JF
Fla has to go if he is near fit. He is the best l/o thrower and offers a wealth of experience. I'm not at all convinced by Varley but I suppose he's next.

Lock - POC, DOC, LC, DR
I'd rather have Ryan than MOD as he is more like for like cover for DOC, and even though he doesn't suit Ireland's backrow play, at least could slot in there in a major emergency.

Backrow - SOB, DW, JH, SF, SJ, DL
Yes I'd take six specialist backrowers as those are the positions where games are decided and it is an area of strength for Ireland so rotation is not only possible but should actively happen.

SH - ER, TOL, PS
I would take TOL only if he's 100% fit and has shown some form in the warm-up games. If TOL isn't fit then I'd take Stringer and Murray.

FH - JS, ROG, PW
No real options here

Centres - BOD, GDA, FMcF
Darce is still a class player on his day and was coming back into some form so if he was nearly fit at squad announcement I'd have him in, purely because of his partnership with Sexton and BOD. I'd start Wallace against the USA to ease Darce back from the bench and definitely take McFadden as extra cover and be a good bench option.

Back 3 - TB, KE, AT, RK
Bowe, Earls and Trimble have earned their place. I'd take Kearney if he proves he is 100% fit and approaching some form. He has the edge in big game experience and has been a match-winner in the (albeit distant) past. If he's not fit I'd take a punt on Jones.


Australia have Italy on the first Sunday of the tournament and then Ireland the following Saturday. Italy will be a tough test for them up front and that could be a bruising encounter. OTOH, Ireland start with the USA and they should be rotating players when they can.

For example I'd have Healy and Ross only start against Australia and Italy with Court on the bench. Against USA and Russia I'd start Court and Buckley with Healy and Ross on the bench respectively.

The Great Aukster

You're effectively taking seven backrow players in that list if you count Ryan. There's no need for that many players. I'd take out Leamy from that list and then add Jones and I'm more or less in agreement with you. Flannery and Kearney have to prove their fitness and form. I'd like to take Murray as SH as well but I won't be particularly upset if he's left out.

I think Fitzgerald and Wallace are most at threat of the 'established' players (both have been ever present in squads since 2008) but I think Kidney will see them both as not only experienced players but versatile players who can fill in. Curiously, Kidney seems to like having Wallace as bench cover at 22. He's done that a fair bit. For me, not so much- he seems to consider Wallace as good cover at 15 and I don't.

I'd pick them both, the reason is they can cover key positions. It's important to have good cover at 10 and 15. That's why I think they'll go. That's why I think they should go- I do believe both are international class players who can bring good qualities to the 30 and I'd like to see them being given a chance to hit a good bit of form in August.

I hope Fergus McFadden and Felix Jones get a good crack at them though. Time is against that pair but a bit of good, honest competition for places is a must in the warm-up games.

mrsuperclear wrote:The Great Aukster

You're effectively taking seven backrow players in that list if you count Ryan. There's no need for that many players. I'd take out Leamy from that list and then add Jones and I'm more or less in agreement with you. Flannery and Kearney have to prove their fitness and form. I'd like to take Murray as SH as well but I won't be particularly upset if he's left out.

No, I don't rate Ryan as a starting blindside for Ireland, any more than I would rate McLaughlin as a starting lock. Neither is good enough to be considered viable cover in an unfamiliar position (and maybe not that viable in their familiar position either!). He does have some utility value as an extra BR on the bench if there happens to be a couple of backrow injuries in the same game.

If you take only 5 backrows and given that four are involved in every game game there is hardly any room for rotation. Ireland have a real advantage over other teams in their backrow, but if say SOB and Heaslip have to play every game that nullifies some of that advantage and increases the risk of injury. If Ferris was 100% fit I'd be less inclined to take 6 but managing the most precious assets will be crucial to Ireland's progress.

I don't see the point in taking two specialist fullbacks, especially as I'd start Earls there against Australia. The second one is really only covering for two injuries in one position, and that's too much of a luxury in a 30 man squad where Bowe and Wallace are both viable options. So effectively FB (where injuries are less common than backrow) already has two or three players to cover that one position whereas with just five BR players all it takes is one injury to one of three players and there is no cover left. Jones has never played Test rugby never mind out of position so he can't be considered to have any utility. Kearney isn't a good option at wing so IMO can't be considered as cover there either (neither can Murphy).

Ausker-

I really like your thinking behind the prop situation.

I like the way you say that Fla, TOL and Kearney need to regain form and fitness

Think considering 4 backrow are in every match and 4 back 3 are in every match I think the numbers there need to be evened out somewhat.
Ryan could play 6 against Russia for instance. Good post though.

ps: I still don't want kearney in the squad unless he is fit, on form and has learned how to play with the new rules (attackingly)

pps: I still don't want TOL in the squad unless he is fit, on form and has learned how to play with the new rules (attackingly)

Pete - There're aren't necessarily 4 back three players in every match. There have been occasions where a FH or SH has dropped back, especially in a 5/2 bench split. No team would ever be without a backrow on the bench though.

My point is that the backrow players are far more likely to get fatigued and injured than the back three players, because they are at the coal face in the contact area. They generally make and receive far more tackles, as well as rucking/counterrucking, maul and set piece work.

However there are two wingers and a fullback who need to be increasingly interchangeable in the modern game so I agree that makes three players. As far as I'm concerned Jones is a complete unknown playing wing at any level so can't be considered as cover there. Either he is picked as a first/second choice fullback alongside Earls or not at all. (Same goes for Kearney.)

In the last RWC Brian Carney made the plane and Jamie Heaslip didn't because Eddie went 16/14 rather than 17/13. If Heaslip had been there he surely would have been tactically used with Leamy so off-colour, whereas Carney was pure injury cover for one position.

The Great Aukster wrote:Pete - There're aren't necessarily 4 back three players in every match. There have been occasions where a FH or SH has dropped back, especially in a 5/2 bench split. No team would ever be without a backrow on the bench though.

My point is that the backrow players are far more likely to get fatigued and injured than the back three players, because they are at the coal face in the contact area. They generally make and receive far more tackles, as well as rucking/counterrucking, maul and set piece work.

However there are two wingers and a fullback who need to be increasingly interchangeable in the modern game so I agree that makes three players. As far as I'm concerned Jones is a complete unknown playing wing at any level so can't be considered as cover there. Either he is picked as a first/second choice fullback alongside Earls or not at all. (Same goes for Kearney.)

In the last RWC Brian Carney made the plane and Jamie Heaslip didn't because Eddie went 16/14 rather than 17/13. If Heaslip had been there he surely would have been tactically used with Leamy so off-colour, whereas Carney was pure injury cover for one position.

Alan Quinlan didn't get a game either, so I doubt if Heislip of 4 years ago would have been of much use. Anyway, I don't think Leamy is the only one who had a poor world cup so the chances are that Heaslip would have been as equally poor. EOS got the prep wrong. Bear in mind that the Ireland pack in the world cup went onto win the Heineken Cup with Leamy. (Which by the way, SOB is not an 8 - Parisse ate him alive in the 6ns and we have Italy in our group).

Bearing in mind that BOD loves his rucking and getting stuck into things and might need a rest - do you not think Keith Earls might be a wee bit stretched as the only experienced centre, playing wing and having to cover fullback as well as centre?

Sin what is Earls international experience as a centre which makes you think he is "experienced"?

roddersm wrote:Sin what is Earls international experience as a centre which makes you think he is "experienced"?

2 tries against Wales in the 6Ns in 2010.

I wasn't claiming international experience at centre - just recent enough experience at the later stages of the Heineken Cup playing in that position. Frankly, his credentials are better for centre than they are for fullback at international level.


EDIT: (I should have added that in the game he played against Wales, he made 11 tackles and missed none )

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sin what is Earls international experience as a centre which makes you think he is "experienced"?

2 tries against Wales in the 6Ns in 2010.

I wasn't claiming international experience at centre - just recent enough experience at the later stages of the Heineken Cup playing in that position. Frankly, his credentials are better for centre than they are for fullback at international level.

Actually they're not. He hasn't played a full international game at centre whereas he has at 15.

Trimble has played a number of International games at 13 and started off there, Bowe has played there for the Lions (preferred ahead of Earls) and as well as the Ospreys . McFadden and Fitzgerald who may also go have both experience in the centre.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that Earls is the only "experienced" centre in the squad. He's been tried there with Munster, with pretty mixed results so I'm not sure he's the nailed on successor to BOD that you think he is.

Well if Darcy is out Mcfadden will have to go and if Darcy does go, McFadden may well go anyway

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sin what is Earls international experience as a centre which makes you think he is "experienced"?

2 tries against Wales in the 6Ns in 2010.

I wasn't claiming international experience at centre - just recent enough experience at the later stages of the Heineken Cup playing in that position. Frankly, his credentials are better for centre than they are for fullback at international level.

Actually they're not. He hasn't played a full international game at centre whereas he has at 15.

Trimble has played a number of International games at 13 and started off there, Bowe has played there for the Lions (preferred ahead of Earls) and as well as the Ospreys . McFadden and Fitzgerald who may also go have both experience in the centre.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that Earls is the only "experienced" centre in the squad. He's been tried there with Munster, with pretty mixed results so I'm not sure he's the nailed on successor to BOD that you think he is.

I don't know - scoring 2 tries isn't bad going against Wales. Can you imagine how many he would have scored if he played the fullgame

Big deal about the Lions - Bowe was preferred to a 20 year old with no international experience who had a disaster start to the tour. Fair play to Earls for making the tour in the first place

I completely disagree with your comments that there were 'mixed' results with Earls at 13 for Munster. I expect to see him back there after the world cup. As for being BOD's successor - I've no idea who it will be - one thing I'm sure of though, Earls when fit, will be in the starting 15 somewhere.

Sin scoring two tries against Wales two seasons ago does not make earls an international centre.

Munster have not had a decent centre combo since Tipoki left and Earls looked pretty uncomfortable there in my opinion. I think he is a back 3 player and does not have the skill set to be a centre.

He may well get the nod at 13 should BOD get injured but it is certainly not his best position and to me he is no more experienced or qualified to play there than any of the other options available.