English Domestic Rugby Ongoing

First topic message reminder :

This is a statement from the Coventry Rugby Chairman and was posted on the falcons forum as it seems to point towards a big shake up that affects Prem and Championship teams. The paragraph in the top right is the interesting part for other English teams....

Thought you might like to read it...and if you have any knowledge of the shake ups coming?

https://www.coventryrugby.co.uk/an-open-letter-from-executive-chairman-jon-sharp/

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if the prem was to stop importing foreign players that may be an issue. But they're not and the wage cap is due to rise again shortly. Meanwhile in head to heads across Europe the. Leagues are still balanced over the past year and the past 5.

Even with the rise in salary cap wont keep it competitive with salaries on offer in France. They will still have imports. But the quality of the imports is what will drive standards. At the moment both France and Japan essentially get first pick on the top stars in world rugby.

Premiership rugby no doubt will still be able to attract the odd super star such as Pollard etc. The issue however runs far deeper than that. The majority of import players now are not the same standard as the overseas players overall they recruited 10 years ago. That in turn lowers the standard of the league and as I said earlier English rugby can't fill the amount of teams they currently have with home grown talent.

Regarding head to heads Europe is a poor measure. Partly because the majority of French teams don't focus on it. Given the only true measure would be to see Premiership sides compete in the Top14 to see how they would actually fair. That of course couldn't happen but you are not comparing apples with apples is what I'm driving at here

Recwatcher16 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah right. The Irish model could never be fallible. Forgot about that.

Red Herring number 2.

Nobody is claiming Irish rugby is infallible, only that it works in so far as it is financially stable and has a measure of success.

Any system needs to be reworked and reevaluated in the light of changing circumstances and that includes Irish rugby.

No fish involved. Look at Saracens.  It works,it's financially stable and has a measure of success.

Saracens debt: 40.8 million
Saracens CEO: “You can tell that the financial model of rugby doesn’t work and clubs are losing far too much money,”

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-saracens-ceo-says-financial-model-of-rugby-doesnt-work/

If that really is Saracens repayable debt, then that is a bargain. Saracens have succeeded in obtaining a stadium in London near their fan base, where Wasps, London Irish and London Welsh have failed.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/bath-claim-robust-set-of-results-despite-latest-financial-losses/

Recwatcher

Not exactly sunlit uplands, lots of "we are moving forward" and "we are committed to" talk, but Bruce Craig has put a lot into bath ,and fair play to him for that, but not exactly seen any rewards. Can you claim that it's a sustainable business model?

And I'm not trying for a "gotcha" I'm genuinely curious, as if Bruce walked away (or any other clubs wealthy backers) how long would the club survive?

Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust, then another will take its place. The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!

Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!

If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!

If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

L4L , all you are doing is exhibiting a completely different mindset based on set in stone Union provincial teams.
I agree a ten team league is too small but it is the compromise for copying the elitist set ups in other countries including yours.

It is not about being ready, it's is about having ambition to be promoted and if they are not good enough they get relegated, when that comes back in and another team gets a chance. Every now and then you get an Exeter or Worcester that stay up for a prolonged period and a Bristol that in recent times spent far too long in the Championship. There have been further complicated factors like appropriate stadia and perhaps advanced financing for player recruitment in anticipation of promotion but nothing's perfect and with a financial downturn, exacerbated by a pandemic to boot.

Recwatcher16 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!

If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

L4L , all you are doing is exhibiting a completely different mindset based on set in stone Union provincial teams.
I agree a ten team league is too small but it is the compromise for copying the elitist set ups in other countries including yours.

It is not about being ready, it's is about having ambition to be promoted and if they are not good enough they get relegated, when that comes back in and another team gets a chance. Every now and then you get an Exeter or Worcester that stay up for a prolonged period and a Bristol that in recent times spent far too long in the Championship. There have been further complicated factors like appropriate stadia and perhaps advanced financing for player recruitment in anticipation of promotion but nothing's perfect and with a financial downturn, exacerbated by a pandemic to boot.

You've gone off on your own tangent there.
You claimed that when you have a domestic league and a team goes bust, another takes its place... I'm simply asking who is there to replace a team if one of the CURRENT 10 goes bust? I don't see many options. The stadium criteria is a massive barrier in that regard.

Two close semi-finals in the cup:
Gloucester 17 - 14 Exeter
Ealing 21 - 29 Leicester

Gloucester v Leicester in the final next month, a week before the league restarts with a round including Leicester v Gloucester.

I'll post it here rather than the falcons...but The falcons owners and management have been out in Saudi meeting all the owners of PIF etc...and presented them with a falcons shirt...

Picture posted on social media then deleted...but nothing is ever deleted from social media so it's doing the rounds.

So looks like the Neighbours owners are now investing in us...

https://twitter.com/RugbyInsideLine/status/1759221194299982324?s=19

This is the one

Yeah theres another one of Seymore Kurdi sat with them aswell...

Already seen alot of Moral debates going on...boycott the Falcons away games etc...

Geordie wrote:Yeah theres another one of Seymore Kurdi sat with them aswell...

Already seen alot of Moral debates going on...boycott the Falcons away games etc...

No need to boycott. Just don't take your LBGT friend.

Several of the Falcons unoffy regulars are part of that Group And have been very honest and sensible (not sure thats the right word) In their opinions.

We shall see what materialises.....

The best model for the prem to follow is how Germany ran its pro football leagues. Prior to winning their last World Cup (they changed the model after) they also had a salary cap, lost their best players to overseas leagues that were watched by the domestic audience (in direct competition for viewers) but still managed to bring through and help their own young players excel and managed a financially viable league. Unfortunately I only went out with a serious German football fan for a couple of years so I can’t quote more details or the financial ins and outs of it all but models exist for the prem to follow outside of rugby.

Personally I’d hate the prem to join the URC. The European comps would be much more boring, only the French would be adding new teams to play, and there are too many teams that are of average standard. We already play the better English sides in the h cup and most of the matches are predictable. And more English teams are likely to go bust in a year. It just sounds like a bad idea ina bunch of ways to me.

Outside of the Welsh sides the URC is managing fine and has some great matches. Please let’s not throw in 8 struggling-ish teams that we mostly already play. A 26 team league? Ugh

.

Saw this on the Falcons unoffy....

Wasps coming back?

"Apparently, they have secured the finances and an agreement with Sevenoaks Council to build a new stadium at Swanley in Kent, as part of a bigger development close to Junction 3 of the M25.
It will be good for professional rugby if the Wasps can return at the right level and rebuild the famous club."

I imagine the RFU will try to pitch them back in to the Prem but they'll end up having to settle for Championship rugby initially. Personally I think Nat League 1 should be their starting point.

Wonder what will happen to their training ground that's pretty much brand new and nowhere near Kent. Sell to Birmingham City who are currently rent it? Actually not sure what iteration of Wasps this is and whether they even own the training ground anymore.

Geordie wrote:Saw this on the Falcons unoffy....

Wasps coming back?

"Apparently, they have secured the finances and an agreement with Sevenoaks Council to build a new stadium at Swanley in Kent, as part of a bigger development close to Junction 3 of the M25.
It will be good for professional rugby if the Wasps can return at the right level and rebuild the famous club."

This was reported locally (i.e. in Kent) some time before Christmas I think, but in way that gave me no confidence that anything would actually be happening. Sounded like a bit of a pipe dream in terms of the local council, and it also sounded like it would require significant input from them in the overall scheme. If you can hold your breath for 2 to 3 years then maybe it will be a bit clearer, or maybe the miserable weather this morning is just making me miserable.

Maybe I was overly pessimistic, see attached from today’s local news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68411809

Assuming my tech skills are up to scratch ….

Gloucester beat Leicester 23 - 13 to win the cup. Won all their games, can't complain about that.

Lowlandbrit wrote:Gloucester beat Leicester 23 - 13 to win the cup. Won all their games, can't complain about that.

You didn't watch the final then. Jeez the quality from both teams, the officials and the camera work was dire. Glaws deserved to win but it was definitely not a good advert for the game.

Promotion / Relegation News

Doncaster Knights has met the Minimum Standards Criteria (MSC) and is therefore eligible for promotion to the Gallagher Premiership. Promotion is subject to coming top of the Championship league at the end of the season and then winning a two-legged home and away play-off against the club finishing bottom of the Gallagher Premiership Rugby table.

Doncaster Knights was the only Championship club to apply to for a MSC audit and is therefore the only club eligible for promotion

Doncaster are currently 4th on 44 points with Ealing on 58 points in 1st...

Odds on the MSC changing over the summer then...? The P-share cartel wont want that drawbridge operational any time soon. They spent a lot of time digging the moat that they're so proud of.