English rugby has a problem ?

Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Who says you've got 1 team in the QFs?

Whats with the you - I not English
Sarcens are 99% certain to be there - mind you the Italains could put the final nail in the coffin

geoff,

Will agree that I think Sarries will qualify tomorrow but as for barnes knowing his rugby, sorry have to dis-agree with you there.

Sorry for stereotyping, Geoff sounded like a very English name

Remember that not even the mighty Ospreys could beat Treviso away ...

Its not English Rugby per se, it is the Premeirship Clubs which have a problem. Not just this year, but in recent seasons as well.

Too mamy high stress, highly draining matches. Competing both in the Heineken Cup, to win the Premeirship, or to finish in the top 6 and to avoid the bottom. Too much wear and tear on the players. Makes me think the Saints were a kind or miracle last season.

Neither the English teams, nor the English players are good enough.

I'm English and I'm pretty worried

I think England will have a good 6N.

The club system is hampered by the salary cap so the clubs are going to struggle against the French who have huge financial resources and the Irish who have a better domestic infrastructure and have their best players concentrated into 4 provinces.

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Oh well if Stuart Barnes says so! Jeeesus, the guy is a tool, how can someone watch so much rugby and know so little!

roddersm wrote:I think England will have a good 6N.

The club system is hampered by the salary cap so the clubs are going to struggle against the French who have huge financial resources and the Irish who have a better domestic infrastructure and have their best players concentrated into 4 provinces.

That's it in a nutshell. They have a better league than Pro12 as well. The H Cup is only one competition and is probably a distraction for the success of the Ireland national team at this point. They'll have nothing left in the tank for the 6N and lack cohesion. Wales and England will beat them this year.

Well,

Leicester are really a declining force in Europe

Northampton were hit hard by the WC and players brought back in were off form or didnt gel quickly enough - they were still very unlucky that O'Gara exists. Lots of teams have been Munstered out of the HC tbf

Quins had a great start to the season, but really threw it all away today. Still, they are not considered a better HC than Toulouse, so they werent expected to top the group anyway (and wouldnt have had the chance if it wasnt for Gloucester)

Sarries had a typical English strong pack and used it well and are now likely in the 1/4s

London Irish didnt stand much of a chance after losing to Edinburgh in week one, an unexpected result but hardly a problem with English rugby.

Bath didnt stand a chance against Leinster

And Gloucester went out with a bang.



The pools are harsh on English teams (because the french and irish teams +1 welsh team take the top seeding)

Leicester had to face a resurgent Ulster and Clermont who are having a great season

Gloucester and Quins both had to face heavyweights Toulouse.

Northampton underperformed, but having to have an experienced Munster pack and a lively Scarlets backline didnt help them at all.

Sarries did well to beat the O's homes and away

LI had a weaker pool which they would have hoped to stand a chance in, but so would Edinburgh and the Blues.

AP champions Saracens are doing just fine.

8th AP placed Gloucester have just had an excellent win against the best side in France and the greatest side in European history, having lost to them by only a score in France.

Quins are an unfinished team that lack a physical heart, losing out on a QF by only a point to European royalty,

Saints did poorly in a very tough group.

Tigers have been a side on the wane for a couple of years.

Bath & Irish were never contenders.


This is the way it is, the HC is a hard fought competition of fine margins that sometimes go a nation's way and sometimes don't. In 2009 France had only one side that qualified for the QFs (in 8th position as a runner up), the next year they had four that qualified, and an all French final.

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

What About Welsh rugby? never won it only 1 possible in the QF
What about Scottish rugby? never won it and only 1 possible in the QF
Stuart Barnes talks about rugby, does not mean he knows alot about it
Look at Sarries last year, beaten finalist in the AP top of the league and we were totaly owned in last years HC
This year back to back wins against one of the best sides in Wales and looking possible for a home QF
So who knows what next year may bring?

doctor_grey wrote:Its not English Rugby per se, it is the Premeirship Clubs which have a problem. Not just this year, but in recent seasons as well.

Too mamy high stress, highly draining matches. Competing both in the Heineken Cup, to win the Premeirship, or to finish in the top 6 and to avoid the bottom. Too much wear and tear on the players. Makes me think the Saints were a kind or miracle last season.

Why is it when English teams are doing well it's because of the high intensity in the English league, such things as the relegation and fight for Europe at other ends of the table is the closest thing to the HC and that's why they're doing so well . . blah blah etc.
Same for the national side, when England were winning in the 6N it was because of the high tempo, more difficult and demanding league the English play in.

When the English clubs fail in the HC it's the same reason as when they win - the Aviva - this time it's too demanding and intense/ the relegation battle takes it out of the players etc.
Even after praising the English league during the start of the 6N, it was again partially to blame when Ireland gave them a mullering.

You can't have it both ways. The Aviva can't be the better league producing better players etc when it suits, the pro 12 being inferior due to the lack of relegation. Then after coming out second best to pro 12 teams in the HC and pro 12 nations blame it on the Aviva.

The Irish sides are a cut above at the moment, tley still would be if they played in the Aviva. Welsh and English sides are below them.

So and I know this question been asked before should the AP be ring fenced would clubs and fans want that?

They general feelings are that having relegation toughens players mentally to win the close games but that it sometimes stifles creativity.

Results contradict a bit though. England in the past have certainly known how to close out tight games and maybe this is the result of the English system.

But that said Ireland have had some good results and their Provinces (Munster and Leinster especially) have always been there or there abouts in the HC but we don't have the relegation system.

The think Barnes got right was that when an Irish scrum half gets the ball at the base of a ruck he takes a step forward, when an English scrum half does the same he takes a step back

When a Welsh one gets it its normally 2 to the side

bedfordwelsh wrote:When a Welsh one gets it its normally 2 to the side

I don't think Barnes has watched Tomas O'Leary!

roddersm wrote:I don't think Barnes has watched Tomas O'Leary!

You would have to query what exactly Barnes does watch with some of his quotes.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So and I know this question been asked before should the AP be ring fenced would clubs and fans want that?

They general feelings are that having relegation toughens players mentally to win the close games but that it sometimes stifles creativity.

Results contradict a bit though. England in the past have certainly known how to close out tight games and maybe this is the result of the English system.

But that said Ireland have had some good results and their Provinces (Munster and Leinster especially) have always been there or there abouts in the HC but we don't have the relegation system.

But the teams that contain the majority of Englands internationals never worry about relegation. The teams that do worry don't provide England players and the players they do have generally form a big exodus to other clubs when theirs is relegated.

It is negligible how relevant the system is. I would say that the stoic style of English clubs is more attributed to their general style of play.

The wage cap is a fundamental difference now that the French budgets have sky rocket to disproportional amounts. But England's clubs budgets are probably second to the French in comparison to all the nations included.

That said the French aren't doing fantastically well certainly not in relation to the economic expenditure compared to their rivals.

I would say that it is style of play and quality of coaching that is making the difference. Many teams of all the competing nations in the HEC are able to get superb results, but only four or five do that with annual consistency.

Bathite wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Oh well if Stuart Barnes says so! Jeeesus, the guy is a tool, how can someone watch so much rugby and know so little!

Stuart Barnes is a former Bath RFC legend isn't he?

roddersm wrote:I don't think Barnes has watched Tomas O'Leary!

That wht TOL is no longer Ireland or Munsters scrum half he is not on message

maestegmafia wrote:

Bathite wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Oh well if Stuart Barnes says so! Jeeesus, the guy is a tool, how can someone watch so much rugby and know so little!

Stuart Barnes is a former Bath RFC legend isn't he?

The beerbarrel was a pretty good flyhalf, but not as half as good as he thinks he was, and will never forgive England for not putting him above Squeaky.

He is actualy a very nice bloke who can drink like a forward

bedfordwelsh wrote:So and I know this question been asked before should the AP be ring fenced would clubs and fans want that?

They general feelings are that having relegation toughens players mentally to win the close games but that it sometimes stifles creativity.

I think we hear that releagtion helps the league a lot. But I don't see it. For me, just the opposite. Makes teams play not to lose, and with a cautious, tentative style of play.

I was raised with relegation and always thought it was the way things should be. I now see it stifles any long term planning by the lower tier clubs and retards their ability to grow. In the professional world of today I simply do not see the benefit.

There's nothing wrong with the AP, well at least its not the big issue.

The biggest thing is the salary cap. If this was raised then it would allow the bigger English clubs to retain top talent and recruit high quality overseas players. They simply don't have the quality and depth to compete right now at the highest level.

Unless something changes they will fall further behind Leinster and the top French clubs, who quite franky have far better players and better squads than the English clubs.

geoff999rugby wrote: when an Irish scrum half gets the ball at the base of a ruck he takes a step forward, when an English scrum half does the same he takes a step back

bedfordwelsh wrote:When a Welsh one gets it its normally 2 to the side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4d7Wp9kKjA&ob=av2e

rodders, the "top French clubs" are hardly tearing up the Heineken this season and none made the final last season.

Toulouse have lost two group games and Biarritz won't qualify.

Clermont may qualify today, but are only still in the running because of bonus points.

The others have been out of contention for a while.

So basically the Pro12 reign's supreme

overlordofthewest wrote:Why is it when English teams are doing well it's because of the high intensity in the English league, such things as the relegation and fight for Europe at other ends of the table is the closest thing to the HC and that's why they're doing so well . . blah blah etc.
Same for the national side, when England were winning in the 6N it was because of the high tempo, more difficult and demanding league the English play in.

Maybe you hear some of that stuff where you are, but I really haven't. Although, that could be because English Club Rugby jasn't been as dominant recently.

But the original post was about English Rugby and whether it is in trouble. Frankly, I don't see how this gets into whether another league better or not, whether teams in other leagues are better, the whole nonsensocal discussion. Not on topic, and frankly not relevent.

This is not cyclical. Professional Rugby is too young to have cycles yet, it is still evolving. The business model of Rugby in England is not sustainable. Sadly for relegation fans, it has to go. The number of high intensity matches has to be reduced. The salary cap must be increased, but with support for the clubs which cannot pay to the full amount (NFL teams just agreed that all teams must pay at least 90% of the salary cap each season). The season must be made more logical. It needs better leadership with more cohesive Marketing to bring in more fans (and fans equals £££). And so on. There really are a lot more ideas too.

This is the answer. Simple to write. Absolutely hard to resolve.

Safe Toulouse and Clermont will be there or thereabouts come the KO stages. Along with Leinster they look a cut above despite Toulouse losing twice.

Look at the quality of their squads. Anyone who thinks the top English sides are on par is burying their head in the sand.

Ulster is the 3rd best team in Ireland but could have 3 RWC winners in their side next season. The English sides, including great clubs like the Tigers are being left behind.

Well you can only judge whether English rugby is in trouble by referencing it with other leagues, other sides and in the end, other players. If it existed in its own world, without any outside influences pressurising it, the question would never crop up. It would be happy with what it had. But it's not. It's looking at the outside and questioning itself. So the discussion Must involve other leagues.

Is money the answer? Let's get rid of caps and use the one power we know England has over the others - capital. More money, better players choosing English clubs and success coming naturally. Well, if that's the way, so be it. Smaller nations and less populated ones won't compete with the never ending big bucks club owners.

So success then will come not because your side bested another one on the field but because the other one doesn't really exist as a viable modern side anyway. HC becomes a largely English affair - a AP league seasonal extra (maybe with an odd French side disrupting things on and off). Nice future for 'European' rugby.

roddersm wrote:Unless something changes they will fall further behind Leinster and the top French clubs, who quite franky have far better players and better squads than the English clubs.

If the English clubs started to concentrate on their youthful talent, using Leinster as a model they could achieve more within the salary cap.

Budget is definitely not the sole issue here. Most of the clubs that have success at HEC have not bought it. They may have a decent enough budget to hold on to their players but they haven't bought in half a team of foreign players like saints, Saracens or Tigers who regularly have seven non English players in their match day xv

SecretFly wrote:Well you can only judge whether English rugby is in trouble by referencing it with other leagues, other sides and in the end, other players. If it existed in its own world, without any outside influences pressurising it, the question would never crop up. It would be happy with what it had. But it's not. It's looking at the outside and questioning itself. So the discussion Must involve other leagues.

Is money the answer? Let's get rid of caps and use the one power we know England has over the others - capital. More money, better players choosing English clubs and success coming naturally. Well, if that's the way, so be it. Smaller nations and less populated ones won't compete with the never ending big bucks club owners.

So success then will come not because your side bested another one on the field but because the other one doesn't really exist as a viable modern side anyway. HC becomes a largely English affair - a AP league seasonal extra (maybe with an odd French side disrupting things on and off). Nice future for 'European' rugby.

Hasent really worked for Toulon

And the Irish are doing very well with less money than the French.

SecretFly wrote:Well you can only judge whether English rugby is in trouble by referencing it with other leagues, other sides and in the end, other players.

No. We already know the teams in the other leagues are doing better. I got it. Or else there wouild be no discussion and no purpose to this thread. Now what? Figure out how to fix English Club Rugby. Right?

All pro sports leagues need money to survive. And money is part of it. Not the whole answer by a long shot. The Celtic league has a completely different business model and since the English business model won't fundamentally change to that extent, it is worthwhile to discuss how to improve the English Club Rugby.

doctor_grey wrote:it is worthwhile to discuss how to improve the English Club Rugby.

What are your thoughts....?

A short fix won't help in the long run. Focus has to be made on how clubs are going about how to win. There seemed to be a lot more home grown stars in the HEC winning teams like tigers, wasps, bath, saints of the past. In line with a strong England international period.

There is a great deal of discussion in the Celtic nations rugby threads about the importance or irrelevance of foreign players. Many in Wales don't rate the foreigners in our regions, the Irish value some but not all of theirs. England have almost double the numbers of a Celtic teams foreign contingent in their club squads.

The salary cap is an excuse used by teams who have failed to achieve what they believe they should have done.

I use Leicester and Ulster as an example.

Both are good sides, with good players in them. This season Leicester have produced performances as a team which are less than the sum of it's parts.

Ulster when required to do so have produced performances as a team which are more than the sum of their parts.

That has nothing to do with the salary cap. It has everything to do with coaching, structure and man management.

You can argue that Leicester's squad has been stretched through international call ups and injuries this season, and it has, but I still do not buy the salary cap as being the reason for the relative failure of English sides in Europe this year.

Reallistically if you take Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Toulouse, ASM, Leicester Tigers, Northampton Saints and Saracens and they all put out their first choice side with everyone playing to their maximum, there would be little between the sides.

Depth is more of an issue for some, and for the English sides this is more linked to the domestic structure than finances. It also has to do with where teams priorities lie. Whilst Leicester and Saracens may have the Heineken Cup as their priority, all other English teams currently want to win the the AP first and foremost. I suspect that for the Irish sides the Heineken is prized more highly than the Rabo.

Ireland's domestic sides are in the European ascendeny at present, and look set to be a dominant force for a few more years, but these things go in cycles and at some point the sun will shine more brightly on another nations teams.

Rugby is a sport and to my mind there is something very sporting in Chipping Sodbury being in principle rising to the Jeff - just as their footy side can (albeit unrealistically) dream of the Premiership.

But unrealistic aspirations are fundamental to the principle.

I agree with wage caps - but based on affordability (say 40% of turnover) and this is a fundamental problem in England. Football has no wage caps so they have real problems - Manchester City for instance have player wages exceeding their entire turnover (whilst the billionaire owners retain an interest) - same with Chelsea, Leicester City etc.

The whole Jeff structure is based on equality - like comprehensive schools (of which I am a great supporter ever since I was at grammar school) - but in professional sport you have to set clubs free on an equalish footing based on sustainability not absolute cash limits.

maestegmafia wrote:

Bathite wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Oh well if Stuart Barnes says so! Jeeesus, the guy is a tool, how can someone watch so much rugby and know so little!

Stuart Barnes is a former Bath RFC legend isn't he?

Yes. But I still agree with the poster above, that he is an irritating ignorant tool. Jeremy Guscott is a Bath legend too but he also comes up with some questionable stuff

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:it is worthwhile to discuss how to improve the English Club Rugby.

What are your thoughts....?
A short fix won't help in the long run.

one of the problems in English Club Rugby is short term thinking. Deal with today now and worry about tomorrow when it comes. The longer term planning is harder with twelve separate clubs, twelve separate businesses.

I will write more later: currently at my son's wresstling match and its anowing like a mother outside. Don't like typing on my phone.

Have the provinces got a salary cap?

They're owned by the IRFU so i wouldn't think so.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Have the provinces got a salary cap?

Not yet BW. I've yet to work out if it is effectively more than the Jeff ~£4,2m due to WRU funding.

[ed sorry I read 'regions' for 'provinces']. Provinces have no cap. But they do have industrial-sized attendances..

It was something that just made me think, we know our Regions are bringing it in as of next season so just wondered how the Irish operated.

So anyone any idea what sort of money they are paying their players compared to what France are or could offer.

Bowe is at the Ospreys but there can't be many more (if any) first choice Irish lads playing outside of the Provinces are there.

maestegmafia wrote: England have almost double the numbers of a Celtic teams foreign contingent in their club squads.

and treble the number of sides. This 'foreign legion' argument doesn't add up.

geoff999rugby wrote:Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

what is amount of english teams you expect to be in the QF's?

How many have been in it for the last 10 years? (i honestly dont know the answer)

Saints the latest to get rodgered by the Irish, i think you right.

Men against boys at the mo and a level or ten below them.

It appears that the previous post was too minimalist in approach and controversial to someone....however valid question...do you feel sympathy for English Club Rugby considering the approach taken by English Clubs post the 2003 world cup. For a time they continued to buy in talent disregarding the development of indigenous players. Has it been run down too far, or will it be able to bounce back. Would the removal of the salary cap = automatic improvement and will this translate to the National team. The French clubs with larger bank balances and money still have strength in depth and despite the influx of foreigners reached and nearly won the last World Cup.