ULSTER RUGBY 2022/2023 - SEASON RUN IN

First topic message reminder :

Christ on a bike you lot are downbeat for a side that are currently in the top 4 of the league!!

Out of morbid curiosity and self flagellation I was wondering who between us and bath have had, on paper, the best team to win absolutely feck all?

Clermont are the worst, three champions cup finals and no wins plus 14 top 14 finals and just two wins.

If you include Clermont's 3 challenge cup titles, including the 2019 victory over La Rochelle their record doesn't look quite so terrible.

carpet baboon wrote:Out of morbid curiosity and self flagellation I was wondering who between us and bath have had, on paper, the best team to win absolutely feck all?

I thought I was miserable

Lacking at 10, poor depth at TH, a back row not performing, we might as well give now

Unclear wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Out of morbid curiosity and self flagellation I was wondering who between us and bath have had, on paper, the best team to win absolutely feck all?

I thought I was miserable

Lacking at 10, poor depth at TH, a back row not performing, we might as well give now

Rumour that Jack Carty may be in his final season with Connacht. Any interest from Ulster, do you think?

Pot Hale wrote:

Unclear wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Out of morbid curiosity and self flagellation I was wondering who between us and bath have had, on paper, the best team to win absolutely feck all?

I thought I was miserable

Lacking at 10, poor depth at TH, a back row not performing, we might as well give now

Rumour that Jack Carty may be in his final season with Connacht.   Any interest from Ulster, do you think?

Perhaps they could throw in Bealham and Prendergast (the elder) as well ....

What s deflating weekend that was, even if it should have been somewhat expected.
The performance was like a kick in the nads to the loyal Ulster fanbase. The lack of grit was only surpassed by the lack of energy in the passive defence, the lack of any shape in attack and the complete lack of work at the breakdown. I've read about how good Connacht were but I didn't see it that way. They were fairly average but still bettered us on our own turf, something that says it all really.

Is it a Dan problem? Maybe
Is it a Soper/Bell problem? Definately
Something has to change and I'd suggest the latter might be the main body of the problem.

Anyway, because of what happened I got very, very drunk so my liver isn't thanking Ulster right now

Pete330v2 wrote:
Is it a Dan problem? Maybe
Is it a Soper/Bell problem? Definately
(

Dan put Soper and Bell in the positions they are in
Its a Dan problem.

I actually met him, briefly, at the start of the season.
At the time decided not to post my impressions as it was only brief.
Given where we are I feel it is ok to report I didn't take to him at all

Brought up to date

Unknown

Lock - Iain Henderson
Backrow - Sean Reffell
FH - Ian Madigan
Back 3 Player - Will Addison

LH - Eric O'Sullivan, Andrew Warwick, Callum Reid, Kitshoff
Hooker - Rob Herring, John Andrew, Tom Stewart
THP - Tom O’Toole, Marty Moore
Lock - Alan O'Connor, Cormac Izuchukwu, Kieran Treadwell
Backrow - Matthew Rea, Greg Jones, Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea, David Ewers, David McCann, Harry Sheridan *
SH - David Shanahan, John Cooney, Conor McKee *, Nathan Doak
10 – Billy Burns,  Jake Flannery
Centre - James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore, Angus Curtis, Luke Marshall, Jude Postlewaite
Back 3 Player – Jacob Stockdale, Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, Shea O'Brien, Ben Moxham, Aaron Sexton, Michael Lowry

Thats 36 full time professionals for next year.
* Development contracts
At best we will be 40 players - something like a 20% drop from this year
I am assuming a TH  and Henderson will be signed for no other reasons that absolutely minimum numbers in their positions

geoff999rugby wrote:Brought up to date

Unknown

Lock - Iain Henderson
Backrow - Sean Reffell
FH - Ian Madigan
Back 3 Player - Will Addison

LH - Eric O'Sullivan, Andrew Warwick, Callum Reid, Kitshoff
Hooker - Rob Herring, John Andrew, Tom Stewart
THP - Tom O’Toole, Marty Moore
Lock - Alan O'Connor, Cormac Izuchukwu, Kieran Treadwell
Backrow - Matthew Rea, Greg Jones, Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea, David Ewers, David McCann, Harry Sheridan *
SH - David Shanahan, John Cooney, Conor McKee *, Nathan Doak
10 – Billy Burns,  Jake Flannery
Centre - James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore, Angus Curtis, Luke Marshall, Jude Postlewaite
Back 3 Player – Jacob Stockdale, Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, Shea O'Brien, Ben Moxham, Aaron Sexton, Michael Lowry

Thats 36 full time professionals for next year.
* Development contracts
At best we will be 40 players - something like a 20% drop from this year
I am assuming a TH  and Henderson will be signed for no other reasons that absolutely minimum numbers in their positions

A tighthead would be absolutely vital. If Marty doesn't make it back to fitness that would leave O'Toole + Academy which isn't tenable. On t'other forum KOTH has given one of his usual clues for a TH we're getting. "French might be decent - a good family guy"
The only suggestion has been this guy https://www.bathrugby.com/senior-squad/archie-griffin/
An academy prop from Bath wouldn't exactly be exciting to say the least.

There are only 2 props in the Academy

George Saunderson entering his 3rd year - he is a LH
Scott Wilson entering his 2nd year is a TH and high hopes but a hell of a step up

The other rumour is a TH from Clontarf

Ben Griffin from Clontarf fits the family guy connection but not the French part although yer man is always as obscure as he can be.
Would any of them be worse that Milo the chocolate teapot?

James French, a TH released by Munster think playing for UCC, family guy connection could be Sean French, another player released by Munster, are they related?

"Munster have also confirmed that prop James French will depart the province for a new playing opportunity at the end of the season.
French, 24, is a former Ireland U20 international and has been a member of Munster’s senior squad since 2021."

Whichever one it is it will be a third choice TH who is not up to much but at least
whoever it is will be cheaper than the Chocolate Tea Pot

What low bars we set ourselves

It's Ben Griffin. He's training with Ulster this summer in order to try secure a contract. His performances have been fantastic in the last couple of AIL finals, so a well deserved opportunity. He demolished Marcus Hannan (who has played for Leinster this season) in the scrum last weekend.

Meh! He will have to prove me wrong. When we get other provinces cast offs who actually occasionally played first team rugby and can’t get them to be top drawer at Ulster, what chance realistically is their of 4/5th choice cast off from other provinces becoming anything worth writing home about.

Will be happy to be proved wrong, but I’m not going to celebrate the ‘the dregs’.

Me and you both Clive he is so good Leinster haven't offered him a contract.

Furlong apart, obviously, there is no TH in Leinster as good as Moore and O'Toole.
I don't thing the other TH guys, at Leinster are anything special, but Griffin doesn't get a look in.
Furlong is the player Leinster can least afford to lose out of the entire squad
Also AIB is not URC.

Best of luck to him but I wont be holding out much hope.
He is coming to Ulster because he is cheap and we need a break glass option when Moore and/or O'Toole are not available.

geoff999rugby wrote:Me and you both Clive he is so good Leinster haven't offered him a contract.

Furlong apart, obviously, there is no TH  in Leinster as good as Moore and O'Toole.
I don't thing the other TH guys, at Leinster are anything special, but Griffin doesn't get a look in.
Furlong is the player Leinster can least afford to lose out of the entire squad
Also AIB is not URC.

Best of luck to him but I wont be holding out much hope.
He is coming to Ulster because he is cheap and we need a break glass option when Moore and/or O'Toole are not available.

Obviously it's not an exciting signing but he does genuinely look good. Leinster fans are bemused that he hasn't been given a chance ahead of someone like Tom Clarkson (who can't scrummage and isn't good around the field). I do trust the Leinster management know best when it comes to promoting talent but some do slip through the net and do well elsewhere (Beirne, Prendergast, Patterson). Its a cheap punt, but if it were Leinster I'd be far happier with this signing, than James French.

Do we reckon Ulster are actually aware of these players, or do you think it came as a result of pleading to retain JTA and being told no? And the response being “no, but here are a few Irish names to consider”.
In fairness, Cooney was a success story. How far down the pecking order was he at Leinster and then Connacht?

That said, mindset and attitude are also huge. I don’t think Cooney was under-appreciated elsewhere, I actually think he just decided to go more all-in when he moved to Ulster.
And unfortunately sometimes, moving clubs in fact sees the opposite. Some players perhaps taking their foot off the grass of their career when they move up North. I believe we’ve seen that.

Some interesting comments above. Thanks LF4L for an outside view and very good points Clive. I said some time ago that I thought spending big on Kitshoff may not be the best use of limited funds. This is not dis-respecting his ability, but he is only one player who will be away from the team for significant precisely because he is so good.

I do wonder about the overall commercial abilities of the backroom staff, and the connection with the coaching ticket. Did Dan say our biggest need by a large margin was Kitshoff or some other high profile loosehead? Or was he just available and "too good to pass over"?

There are so many weaknesses and lack of depth in the team going forward that substantial rebuilding is required, not tweaking at the edges. That requires vision, great nous, and not a little luck. Is replacing the pitch (presumably at no little cost) a priority as it may open up extra income from other events? Does the pyschology of players require more scrutiny when recruiting?

Or do we all just "Stand Up for the Ulstermen" (not necessarily at Ravenhill given comments above) and hope for the best?

I suppose we could ask our Welsh colleagues how best to deal with disallusionment.

clivemcl wrote:Do we reckon Ulster are actually aware of these players, or do you think it came as a result of pleading to retain JTA and being told no? And the response being “no, but here are a few Irish names to consider”.
In fairness, Cooney was a success story. How far down the pecking order was he at Leinster and then Connacht?

That said, mindset and attitude are also huge. I don’t think Cooney was under-appreciated elsewhere, I actually think he just decided to go more all-in when he moved to Ulster.
And unfortunately sometimes, moving clubs in fact sees the opposite. Some players perhaps taking their foot off the grass of their career when they move up North. I believe we’ve seen that.

Different environments sometimes produce different reactions and therefore performances. Look at big Nick Williams who wasn't great at Munster, transformed his performances for Aironi and then became a wrecking ball for Ulster. Ulster needs wrecking balls and we have 2 of them coming in but we need more. We need a 10 that can push Billy if not knock him down the pecking order if Frawley's not up to it. Above and beyond the personnel which will be reduced in numbers next season we need a fresh outlook on utilising our very talented back line who are being very badly coached thus far. Soper's not the man but if we're stuck with him we can have as many wrecking balls on the side as you like but that won't cure a blunt attack. I dread next season, I get the horrible feeling it's only going to go backwards, I hope I am very badly wrong.

Forget the spirit of '99, we need the spirit of the first half against Leinster before the collapse.

A little left field but bring Dave Kearney in as backs coach. No idea if he wants to coach, or if he would be any good, but he would have to be better then whatever our backs are being coached at the minute

Can't afford to pay off Soper (Attack) or Bell (Defence) to create a gap.
Don't want him - no experience
If McFarland had made the right decision Payne would still be here


Kearney is going to the USA anyway

I dont blame Ulster for signing Kitshoff, we are short elsewhere but the reality is we needed a top LH,

We have gaps at TH (only 2 signed so far for next year), Lock (only 3 signed so far for next year), Backrow has 4/5 decent players but no one who is International class (Sheridan will be in the future).

An Ulster born forward has not gained their first cap for Ireland since Henderson in 2012 - 11 years that is an absolute joke.

We also serious short at 10 and the back three.
A converted 10 at 15 and the standard falls off a cliff on the wingers after the first choice 11 and 14.  

Biggest gap of all though is coaching.
Every back has gone backwards this year and selection in the backrow is unfathomable.
We get a seriously promising 2nd row and he goes AWOL - WTF is going on

Combine that to the complete failure of the Academy in the forwards and at 10.
At 10 Paddy Jackson is the only 10 since 1996 (1996 for F**K sake) who has been URC standard let alone European or International standard
There is no one even remotely on the horizon at 10 (James Humphreys Davids son isn't good enough)

I see Paddy got the top points scorer in the English Prem and of course it kicked off a lot of the usual bile from the badly infromed jokers. It was noticeably less than a few years ago which shows how lshort memories these half wits have. They are likely too busy sitting on the trans bandwagon, it's easier to get offended there.

Does anyone have a reason why Flannery has seen so little game time? Is he simply not good enough and if he isn't then why the extension? It screams of bad business unless there's some underlying reason for his invisibility.

From what I have seen of Flannery he is a useful player, he should have had far more game time.
I put it down to poor selection.
McFarland seems to thing the sun shines out of Burns backside (best rugby brain in the squad) - which is utter nonsense by the way.

We have become severely dependent on an average Fly Half because of poor selection.
The same person who doesn't seem to grasp what a balanced backrow looks like, as shown against Connacht

At this moment i'd even take Carberry! He seems to have fallen well down the pecking order at Munster. Ideally I'd push the hard sell on Frawley. Tell him and Andy Farrell he starts every game at flyhalf and sell it to ireland that way. I sense Andy Farrell sees him as a fly half. I know i'm dreaming but to me it makes sense.

We (collectively) seem to be putting a lot of the blame on the coaching ticket. If Dan did up and leave who would be a good punt as a replacement. Obviously we won’t be paying top dollar so it’s either an uninspiring existing head coach or take a chance on someone lacking in experience in all probability.

I’m not at all knowledgeable about other coaches out there so are there any suggestions or just regrets about those that are out of reach?

IMO, we need to start considering paying contracts to Irish qualified players as we would to NIQ ‘stars’.

For me, I’d give Kitchoff’s money to Frawley if he would come.

We just need to spread the (talent) wealth, and the IRFU probably need to do more to incentivise that.

Is there no call for Ireland to bolster the contracts of players moving to other clubs on the promise that they get considerably more game time where they go to?

Of course, no club wants to be beholden to playing a player if he’s not cutting the mustard.

Top nation in the world… this Island has enough players currently Irish qualified to not feel the need to get foreign ‘help’ at provinces..

We need to produce player of the required quality through our Academy especially 1 to 10.
Our record in the last decade is parthetic.

No forwards since Henderson getting their first International cap.
Only Jackson at half back and circumstance mean he left.

Also player moving from Leinster, or indeed Munster, is a  myth.
Only Jordi Murphy.

REst of them not in the Leinster Academy, dropped from the Academy or given a last chance because of injury when Leinster weren't interested (McGrath)

Also Leinster having some many Central Contract and professional coaches in schools mean we cant get even remotely close even if we were well run on and off the pitch - we are not.

Lastly ditch the bloody noose round young rugby players development in Ulster - the precious schools cup.
Their amateur mishandling of young players is killing player development

Why are Ulster now losing players to Leinster's academy? It was bad enough to lose Mckee (who already looks a cracking player) and now McErlean is joining this year. That needs to stop immediately.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why are Ulster now losing players to Leinster's academy? It was bad enough to lose Mckee (who already looks a cracking player) and now McErlean is joining this year. That needs to stop immediately.

In priniciple I agree but those two  are valid exceptions.

McErlean moved to Dublin when he was 12 and as such has come through the Leinster Education system.
He probably considers it home and where his mates are.

McKee looks promising but he is not as good as Stewart who is a year younger and is two years older than McCormick who also has potential.
Hooker, along with the three-quarters are the positions Ulster don't have a problem producing decent numbers of professional standard players

Geoff, I've probably for the first time seen the flawed grammar school rugby problem in Ulster up close.
I coach mini - P6. Was chatting to a few parents last night and our two best players are not even sitting transfer tests and will not be going to any of the local grammar schools. Not that the local grammar schools are top level anyway but still... It just shows that from the age of 10, players of great promise can either get very lucky in terms of their rugby development linked both to their academics and/or geography in the country.
It's a real shame.
Of course it doesn't rule anything out for them, but is for sure a much harder path that way under the current system.

For the first time it really hit home for me looking at actual young players I've been working with for 6 years and seen them develop really quite well.

It's always been the way Clive, we've been complaining about it for decades here in the sticks yet players who are not in the 'perceived' correct grammar streams are still being ignored regardless of talent. Unfortunately the suits have always been affiliated to those very grammar streams so don't see the problem which doesn't surprise me. If talented players were able to get time playing at their local clubs they might well have a better chance of being noticed but for some reason there is no appetite for change it would seem.

The saga will continue and talented rugby players will never be offered the chance to be talented rugby players.

I am Ulster Rugby
Club of Clubs
Look at my works and despair.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why are Ulster now losing players to Leinster's academy? It was bad enough to lose Mckee (who already looks a cracking player) and now McErlean is joining this year. That needs to stop immediately.

In priniciple I agree but those two  are valid exceptions.

McErlean moved to Dublin when he was 12 and as such has come through the Leinster Education system.
He probably considers it home and where his mates are.

McKee looks promising but he is not as good as Stewart who is a year younger and is two years older than McCormick who also has potential.
Hooker, along with the three-quarters are the positions Ulster don't have a problem producing decent numbers of professional standard players

Fair enough on McElrean but Leinster have Kelleher and Sheehan... Having a couple of good prospects in a position doesn't excuse losing a player of McKee's class to a rival. It doesn't stop Leinster accepting lads into the academy, otherwise you could lose out on a Prendergast.

Clive I feel your pain.
I am absolutely convinced there is a wealth of talent not getting looked at away from the traditional schools.
Also hear of many schools players who become disillusions with Schools rugby and turn their back on the game.

I also find it damning that one truly World class player, who made the grade during  the professional era, didn't come through the closed shop of traditional grammar schools - Stephen Ferris.
How many Stephen Ferris's are there out there who never got a look in.

Also Tommy Bowe played a lot of GAA football until he was 16 - would that be allowed now - I doubt it.
it made him a better player.

Neither of these two guys lived and breathed rugby until their later teens - they didn't turn out too bad.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Fair enough on McElrean but Leinster have Kelleher and Sheehan... Having a couple of good prospects in a position doesn't excuse losing a player of McKee's class to a rival. It doesn't stop Leinster accepting lads into the academy, otherwise you could lose out on a Prendergast.

One difference is Prendergast is the best 10 to emerge in Leinsters ranks since Sexton came to dominate.
McKee was not the best hooker to emerge since Best came to dominate - Stewart is.

Also McKee is similar in the sense he also went down to Dublin, in his case to take his degree, and that is when he hooked up with Leinster.
I suggest it is probably more McKee choosing to stay in Dublin rather than Ulster letting him through their fingers.

James French confirmed to be moving to Ulster for next season.

JJ Hanrahan coming back to Ireland, might it be Ulster?

mikey_dragon wrote:JJ Hanrahan coming back to Ireland, might it be Ulster?

West is best. He's gone Connacht

Fair. I’m assuming he and his wife were a bit homesick, hence being supported and released early.

Apparently James French has impressed technically but his fitness comes up way short.

He will be in for a world of pain this summer

So Munster have a double header V the Baa Baas, womens then mens teams. Got the SA XV recently too, what do Ulster have to do to get these games? Owe the IRFU a ton of cash as well?

It is because they owe a lot of cash that they get the games.
The IRFU don't want to have to admit Munster haven't got the income to pay the money back in anything like a reasonable period.
By throwing match (read cash) at Munster they can show each year they are able to pay some back.

Rewards bad management and shows a provincial bias if you ask me.

I was reading a little on t'other forum and one of the main contributors claims to have been talking to a member of the coaching team that rhymes with Sam Doper. This Doper fella was quizzed on the non-performance against Connacht. He allegedly laid all the blame firmly on the players not turning up and not playing to what they had been coached.
A coach blaming players = bad workman blaming his tools IMO. If that's the attitude I can see why the players wouldn't necessarily buy into the coaching setup.

I know it was a game we should have and could have won but that's in the past now as is the season, a season of 2 halves. The first half took us to half time in Dublin looking like world domination had finally arrived and then the 2nd half, perhaps best forgotten. Let us not forget however that we did finish 2nd in a league and won as many trophies in all competitions as the team who finished 1st. So not bad all being said and done

Soper = a classic case of someone promoted one step too far.
Good at skills hopeless as an attack coach - out of his depth

As for his comments what an utter joke.
The one thing that showed was we got our tactics wrong and the conditioning was wrong - 100% the coaches to blame.
I think their a serious miscommunication in the camp these days.
One thing is for sure 'There is seriously something wrong,

geoff999rugby wrote:It is because they owe a lot of cash that they get the games.
The IRFU don't want to have to admit Munster haven't got the income to pay the money back in anything like a reasonable period.
By throwing match (read cash) at Munster they can show each year they are able to pay some back.  

Rewards bad management and shows a provincial bias if you ask me.

Yeah it is wierd that Munster always get to play touring international sides and not Ulster. Have to agree.

The Munster result may be a good thing for Ulster. It really shows what a change in coaching can do for a team, adds a bit more pressure to DMcF, if Ulster were not considering bringing in a dedicated Attack coach already (Soper is senior coach) they must be considering it now.

Bring in an attack coach, and that will free up Soper to have more time with Newby as skills coach (a job Soper was very good at), and assist Bell with a focus on defence (which needs a lot of improvement). A good attack coach, with Soper/Newby and Soper/Bell, looking after skills and defence surely would improve those areas.

Realistically I can't see Ulster making a lot of changes in coaching, but that just bringing in an attack coach, I think could fix a lot of issues.

Think there should be good attack coaches available post WC, or Mike Blair at Edinburgh may be an option, if the new Edinburgh head coach wants his own people.