Who is the second best fly half in the world?

First topic message reminder :

Vote accordingly.

rodders, claiming that Sexton is rotated to massage ROG's ego says to me you don't rate O'Gara! Sexton has had two very good games (v. England and v. Northampton). In the recent head-to-head, O'Gara controlled the game better and his team won with 3 trys to 0 (note, although O'Gara's channel was targeted all day, Leinster didn't get to score a try).

Worth bearing in mind also is with Sexton playing outhalf, the No. 12 channel gets targetted big time and is probably the reason why D'Arcy gets the call.

Paddy Wallace has a better chance of playing 12 with ROG at 10.

Sin I'm not suggesting Paddy Wallace should play. In fact I'd have D'arcy, McFadden and Spence ahead of him. I don't think he'd even be 1st choice at Ulster right now given the form of Spence and Cave.

I agree that ROG has shaded the head to heads but Sexton IMHO has a better skill set for attacking rugby and is better definsively and has delivered more often than not for Ireland. He's younger too. It's not a critcism of ROG who I'd be happy to see start if Sexton is in poor form or injured.

roddersm wrote:
For contrast Luke Fitzgerald, Dennis Leamy and gordon d'arcy have been given chance after chance when they needed to be sent to the knackers yard.

Luke Fitz - who was he blocking at FB? Both Kearney & Murphy were injured. And Gavin Duffy was coming back from an injury. First 6Ns game: Horgan, Bowe & Trimble injured (and Keith Earls coming back from an injury). He is still 1st choice wing for Leinster, don't forget. Kidney isn't doing anything different to his own club coach.

Denis Leamy was doing fine up to the 6ns (and was fill in Munster captain for when POC was out most of the time). He was ranked in the Top 10 best performing Forwards (not just backrows) in the Heineken Cup (7th I think). Sean O'Brien was No. 1. No other Irish forward made the top 10.

Who do you think should have been there instead of him?

Gordon D'Arcy's defense + his partnership, particularly with Sexton will always get him the nod over everyone else. If McFaddan can't do it at Leinster, Paddy Wallace isn't going to do it at international level.

roddersm wrote:No sin I rate Rog very highly. He's been one of the best in Europe for a decade and has been playing very well. I just believe Sexton is better, younger and has a better skill set for the game that Ireland need to play.

Sexton may not have always played brilliantly but he's certainly been dropped(rotated) when he hasn't been playing badly, which subsequently hasn't helped his form IMHO.

For contrast Luke Fitzgerald, Dennis Leamy and gordon d'arcy have been given chance after chance when they needed to be sent to the knackers yard.

Hit the nail on the head there Rodders.

Lets look to the future. The future is Sexton and Keatley. The was ROG gets bounced around the park like a rubber doll is worrying. He will get busted some day.

roddersm wrote:I agree that ROG has shaded the head to heads but Sexton IMHO has a better skill set for attacking rugby and is better definsively and has delivered more often than not for Ireland. He's younger too. It's not a critcism of ROG who I'd be happy to see start if Sexton is in poor form or injured.

Well, let Sexton develop his skills with Leinster. The national team shouldn't have to lose games so he can practice his attacking flair. Sexton has been in poor form internationally more than he has been in good form (it wasn't the injury that caused him to miss all those kicks in the 6Ns, it was he hadn't put enough attention into developing his kicking skill).

His own defense may be better than ROGs (which puts pressure on his centre partnership and just means the backrow defense has to move out and help them instead). But it could be argued that the threat of ROG's extremely accurate kicking from hand is a much easier way to defend and attack! It certainly keeps the wings mindfull of leaving too much space behind them.

Boyne wrote:

roddersm wrote:No sin I rate Rog very highly. He's been one of the best in Europe for a decade and has been playing very well. I just believe Sexton is better, younger and has a better skill set for the game that Ireland need to play.

Sexton may not have always played brilliantly but he's certainly been dropped(rotated) when he hasn't been playing badly, which subsequently hasn't helped his form IMHO.

For contrast Luke Fitzgerald, Dennis Leamy and gordon d'arcy have been given chance after chance when they needed to be sent to the knackers yard.

Hit the nail on the head there Rodders.

Lets look to the future. The future is Sexton and Keatley. The was ROG gets bounced around the park like a rubber doll is worrying. He will get busted some day.

I'd be more worried about Sexton, Boyne. He has taken a fair few knocks himself and seems to get injured a fair bit, unlike ROG who rarely gets injured despite all of Jamie Heaslip's attention.

I must say, I'm beginning to look forward to Keatley coming to Munster and being reunited with Earls & Jones who were in the U20 grandslam winning team of '07.

Sin what are you talking about? Read what I said about paddy wallace.

Are you suggesting Sextons solid defence causes a problem for the men outside him?! Are you serious!

I don't think Sexton needs to develope his game. He has it all and has proved it numerous times. What he needs is experience and he won't get it if Kidney hauls him off for Rog at the 1st sign of trouble.

Kidney needs to let sexton trust his instincts and if he does then I believe Sexton will help take Ireland to a new level.

I'd say Cooper is the most entertaining of the bunch, and the most naturally talented/gifted etc, but he is inconsistent, and can be a bombscare defensively. Taking my team (Scotland) as an example, they could put any member of the team bar Parks or Blair down his channel and be confident of gaining a good 10 yards. I also recall him being completely bulldozed against NZ (McCaw?) and England.

Sexton is a superb talent, on current form probably the top of that list, but he is only young, and I would prefer a safer, more consistent option at 10 given the luxury of choosing.

I would opt for Flood or Trinh-Duc. Flood has improved immeasurably over the past year or so, and is a very complete all-round player. His form perhaps dipped a wee bit towards the close of the season, but he is the most consistently performing 10 of this season. Trinh-Duc is incredibly skilful (through-the-legs pass against Scotland a prime example) in the same vein as Cooper, but I think he is a far more secure option at 10 than the Aussie. The only problem is that he can suffer from typically French temperamental displays along with the rest of his side.

Whilst i agree with a lot of what you are saying Sin i cant agree that our backrow effectively have to babysit our centres if Sexton starts. The only player in our backline who gets significant help defensively is ROG when he plays. THis isnt an attack against him it is just his weak point ( as it is iHumph at Ulster). He more than makes up for it with his experience, kicking ability and nous but to say Sexton cause more pressure on us defensively is wrong. D'arcy and BOD can handle anyone defensively.

roddersm wrote:Sin what are you talking about? Read what I said about paddy wallace.

Are you suggesting Sextons solid defence causes a problem for the men outside him?! Are you serious!

I don't think Sexton needs to develope his game. He has it all and has proved it numerous times. What he needs is experience and he won't get it if Kidney hauls him off for Rog at the 1st sign of trouble.

Kidney needs to let sexton trust his instincts and if he does then I believe Sexton will help take Ireland to a new level.

I'm suggesting that citing ROG's defence as a major issue isn't the problem some people make it out to be. (And that is from Les Kiss the Ireland defence coach who has said that knowing that ROG's channel is the one they are going to generally attack makes life easier for him to prepare).

And yes, his solid defence means that his centres / backs have to do more defensive work than when with ROG. There is a much better chance of a turnover as well if a backrow is there to help them.

As I've said before, Kidney's responsibility is to the team, not just Sexton. It won't do them any good losing a load of games while Johnny develop's his skills.

Sexton had ample opportunity & time to trust his instincts/do something in the Magner's final - why didn't he do it then? He had a reasonable game - nothing more.

ROG or Butch James if his having a good day.

The difference is Sin if we divert our oppositions attacking focus into the centres we are actually diverting it into a strenght of ours not a weakness. Knowing that an opposition will always attack ROG is helpful until there isnt someone there to help him (i actually agree with you that his defence has improved over the past year) which is more often than not the case with the pace at which SH teams attack.

IMO (and is suspect Kidney will go with this) he will start Sexton at the RWC but wont be shy about bringing on ROG if it is required. At present that is the way i see it although there is time for that to change

Standulstermen wrote:Whilst i agree with a lot of what you are saying Sin i cant agree that our backrow effectively have to babysit our centres if Sexton starts. The only player in our backline who gets significant help defensively is ROG when he plays. THis isnt an attack against him it is just his weak point ( as it is iHumph at Ulster). He more than makes up for it with his experience, kicking ability and nous but to say Sexton cause more pressure on us defensively is wrong. D'arcy and BOD can handle anyone defensively.

Ireland defends with two players - one tackles/holds up the opposition and 2nd player trys to rip the ball. Sexton needs another player anyway to do that. If you look at the stats, ROG usually makes a lot more tackles than Sexton. And BOD & D'Arcy can handle anyone - but it ties them down a bit if they have big Backrows running at them instead of at ROG who can be helped by his backrow.

From what I've seen of iHumps, he is shifted out to the wing in defense - ROG isn't.

I don't think ROG's defense is the problem it's made out to be either. In fact I'd ROG's only weaknesses are his inability to retain possesson in contact and the fact that sometimes he attacks from too far behind the gain line.

It is a simple fact that Sexton is much stronger in these areas. Sexton is far more physical and poses more threat with the ball in hand which creates more space for the players around him.

Sin

The tactic is great when and where possible but it isnt always possible and we need guys able to make 1 on 1's especially against the SH. IHumph is moved out a lot of the time but this isnt possible half the time

I agree with StandUlstermen on this one - playing Sexton does not mean that the back row must "babysit" the centres, certainly far less so than it does with O'Gara. Which one you play depends on what style of game you play. This year, Kidney got it spot on playing O'Gara ahead of Sexton at Murrayfield, as he completely nullified Scotland by constantly putting us back in our own 22.

My worry for the Irish would be that they would be defensively weak playing O'Gara and D'Arcy in the 10/12 channels. Maybe a bit harsh on D'Arcy, but neither he nor ROG are solid tacklers, especially against larger opposition. I would be concerned that they would be targeted by the opposition, who are likely to run back rowers or large centres at those two, which could in turn nullify Ireland's back row.

Sin stop talking nonsence! There is no defensive benefit to Ireland by playing O'Gara instead of Sexton!

roddersm wrote:Sin stop talking nonsence! There is no defensive benefit to Ireland by playing O'Gara instead of Sexton!

No where have I claimed that it is a defensive benefit to Ireland by playing O'Gara instead of Sexton.

What I am claiming that it isn't the major consideration that you would like it to be because of the defensive 'gang tackle' system that ireland use (and ohed and aahed about in the SH) needs two players to do it - and it generally better if a backrower is involved.

In the Ireland v England game - it was a very busy day for D'Arcy on the tackling front making 13 tackles (missing 1). BOD made 5. Sexton made 1. SOB (12), POC (12) & DOC (11) were equally busy (as were Heaslip, Wally & Best with 8/9 each).

Someone has to do the tackling I suppose.

roddersm wrote:I don't think ROG's defense is the problem it's made out to be either. In fact I'd ROG's only weaknesses are his inability to retain possesson in contact and the fact that sometimes he attacks from too far behind the gain line.

It is a simple fact that Sexton is much stronger in these areas. Sexton is far more physical and poses more threat with the ball in hand which creates more space for the players around him.

Not a huge threat if you are kept in your own 22 Sexton couldn't get Leinster out of its own 22 in the Magners final. Only time they looked anyway threatening was a bit of BOD magic.

Sin you suggested above that it is easier for Ireland to defend with O'Gara because they know the opposition will attack the 10 channel and if sexton is there it puts pressure on the 12. That is nonsence.

I don't think O'Gara's defence is a big problem. In fact I don't have any problem with O'Gara I just think Sexton offers more with the ball in hand.

The fact that Sexton only made one tackle only suggests that England's tactic was to move the ball wide.

roddersm wrote:Sin you suggested above that it is easier for Ireland to defend with O'Gara because they know the opposition will attack the 10 channel and if sexton is there it puts pressure on the 12. That is nonsence.

I don't think O'Gara's defence is a big problem. In fact I don't have any problem with O'Gara I just think Sexton offers more with the ball in hand.

The fact that Sexton only made one tackle only suggests that England's tactic was to move the ball wide.

I think the point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter who does the tackling in the team - it has to be done by someone. Claiming that Sexton frees up a backrow / centre to attack because of Sexton's defense is rubbish (and he isn't - they are all making the same number of tackles, if not more when Sexton is playing).

Sexton may offer more with ball in hand, but that is useless if you can't get out of your own 22. Not a huge problem making tackles in that area of the pitch. Ideal spot for the 'gang tackle' /winning turnover ball. A backrower/lock doesn't have to run the length of the pitch to score a try.

Sin é wrote:

I think the point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter who does the tackling in the team - it has to be done by someone. Claiming that Sexton frees up a backrow / centre to attack because of Sexton's defense is rubbish (and he isn't - they are all making the same number of tackles, if not more when Sexton is playing).

I don't think I suggested that did I? Certainly I don't believe that is the case.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I think the point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter who does the tackling in the team - it has to be done by someone. Claiming that Sexton frees up a backrow / centre to attack because of Sexton's defense is rubbish (and he isn't - they are all making the same number of tackles, if not more when Sexton is playing).

I don't think I suggested that did I? Certainly I don't believe that is the case.

Maybe not by you, but it has been posted that ROG ties up a backrow as he has to be 'minded' and apparently Sexton frees the backrows up from this 'minder' duty.

Why all the rambling about ROG and Sexton, they are no where near the second best flyhalf now, five years ago or anytime. If you had to put your life on a penalty in front of the posts 30m out I would go with ROG, if one of these players you had to rely on to make a tackle it would not be ROG hence neither of the players should not be considered.The two examples I gave would make S Jones top dog but he can't kick out of hand, slow, can't make a break and hence scores very few tries so he should be ruled out. I go for J Wilkinson.

glamorganalun wrote:Why all the rambling about ROG and Sexton, they are no where near the second best flyhalf now, five years ago or anytime. If you had to put your life on a penalty in front of the posts 30m out I would go with ROG, if one of these players you had to rely on to make a tackle it would not be ROG hence neither of the players should not be considered.The two examples I gave would make S Jones top dog but he can't kick out of hand, slow, can't make a break and hence scores very few tries so he should be ruled out. I go for J Wilkinson.

glamorganalun, you do realise that O'Gara has scored more than double the tries that both Wilko & Jones have scored Wilko is the Drop Goal specialist!

O'Gara (109 caps): 16 international tries
Wilko (90 caps): 7 international tries
S. Jones (106 caps) 7 international tries

Just for the record, O'Gara, Jones or Wilko didn't make the opening posters shortlist, which some people thought a bit odd and hence why you have the comparison with those who have made it.

Sexton orchestrated the best attack in the HEC, scored 5 tries himself, I think his goal kicking success was about 90% (can someone find those stats?), and he scored the 2nd most amount of points ever in a HEC final. He was easily the best 10 in the competition. he also but in the single best performance by a flyhalf in the 6 Nations against England.

So I voted for Sexton because I believe he is the 2nd best after Carter. I can understand why people outside Leinster don't think so. That match against England was his only really brilliant international performance. But I think its just taken him a bit of time to be able to boss a test match. He needed experience. I think we'll consistently see performances like that from him in the future. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in the World Cup. I hope he lives up to my high expectations of him.

ROG I rate highly he shows more skills than most flyhalf's but he is not a complete player e.g., demonstrated in the Lions second test need I say more. You don't see JW miss many tackles, miss kicks and keeps defences on their toes. As I made clear, I don't rate Jones hence Wales lack of results for so long so I don't expect Wales to go far in the WC (even his tries were mainly in frendlies or run in's with nobody there).

The Irish have a go at the English for over rating Chris Ashton (a player who has scored tries almost week in week out) and then I hear people saying Sexton is the second best fly half in the world...!

I think Sexton might just be the most over rated player in the world right now.

Yeah, he's a decent player and has potential to be very good - about the same as Flood, Lambie or Trinh-Duc are right now - but the second best fly half in a world with Cooper and Carter... No chance.

I wouldn't even say Sexton is an established international yet, never mind the second best player in the world for his position.

Yes, I was impressed by his performance against Northampton but I wasn't as impressed by his form the following week. He needs to consistently perform at that level for three or four years for Leinster, Ireland and even the Lions before he is considered as good as Cooper or Carter!

Do people watch any Super 15 or Tri Nations rugby...!

Wilko lacks creativity glamorganalun.

Dan Carter is the only complete outhalf. Every one of the rest are lacking something. Defence was generally the missing attribute. Wilko is probably the first outhalf who was a good defender - and look where that got him - always injured.

You didn't comment on Wilko's lack of tries at international level.

Nick Evans

Gotta feel for him not getting the opportunity to play regularly for his country....but meh, Dan Carter, what can you do?

Killer B

So Sexton has to perform consistently for 4 year but Cooper doesnt? How long has Cooper been playing consistently for (some would say he still isnt). Cooper has only emerged as a top fly half in the past season and a half.

By the way i voted Cooper so its hardly Irish bias on my part.

Nick Evans is not a bad shout actually. Just sad that he was behind one of the greats (although not if you're a quins fan)

Has flyhalf become a position of mediocre talent? Or has Dan Carter merely raised the bar.

This list makes pretty interesting - there really aren't any proven pretenders to the crown of Carter!

In terms of kicking Steyn is the best, but his all round game is one-dimensional.

In terms of attacking Cooper wins it, but other parts of his game (defence, and often kicking and attitude) don't even approach world class.

Sexton probably edges Flood on recent performances as the best all-rounder in that list, but although both have turned in top performances against top opposition, neither have really 'arrived' on the world stage and shown the consistency to be considered anything other than 'works in progress.'

...Who will pull their finger out and step up in the forthcoming world cup?! Probably none of them - the All Blacks will cruise it...

red_stag wrote:Has flyhalf become a position of mediocre talent? Or has Dan Carter merely raised the bar.

I often wonder stag would DC be the player he is if he played for someone else? or are the AB's / Crusaders the phenomenom they are in significant part due to him? He certainly seems to react well under pressure most of the time. Equally, players get analysed and criticised much more in defeat.

red_stag wrote:Has flyhalf become a position of mediocre talent? Or has Dan Carter merely raised the bar.

The latter.

Easy.....................Nick Evans!!!!

I know he hasn't played international level in recent years, but as a Quins fan (maybe a little biased), I'm not sure there is a more complete player?? If his timing was differenet I actually beleive that he could be the player currently holding the AB 10 shirt, with DC playing second fiddle!

That's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes!