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Who is the second best fly half in the world?

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Feckless Rogue
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Who is the second best fly half in the world?

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Post by ruggerbyplayer Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:36 pm

Very Happy Vote accordingly.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:38 pm

Nice re-wording Wink thumbsup
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Post by Shifty Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:39 pm

WTF? lol
What an odd of choice of people...
If we accept Dan Carter won the vote for first, surely you need Barry John, Phill Bennett, Andrew Mertherns, Grant Fox, Michael Lynagh, Neil Jenkins, Rob andrew, Hugo Porta and the others on this poll? Doh


Last edited by AlynDavies on Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Adam D Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:39 pm

Wheres Dan Carter on the list? He wins everything else to do with Fly Halfs!

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Post by Shifty Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:40 pm

Hobo wrote:Wheres Dan Carter on the list? He wins everything else to do with Fly Halfs!

I think he came first in the other poll Wink
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Post by ruggerbyplayer Wed 08 Jun 2011, 2:45 pm

AlynDavies

There's always one. This is for CURRENT players not golden oldies. How is this an odd choice of people? I've included more or less every first team fly half from the strongest rugby nations. Clearly, Dan Carter wins best, so I was just interested in who people think is second best. It's not rocket science!!! Who did you vote for?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:24 pm

So Henson won the number one poll yeah?

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:26 pm

No Dan Parks?

:run2:

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Post by Killer_B_6 Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:29 pm

Another opportunity for the Irish to big up Jonny Sexton who couldn't even hold down his place in their 6 Nations line up.

Quade Cooper by a mile.

Third best is a contest between Sexton, Flood, Lambie and Trinh-Duc imo - all have their faults and a lot of potential.

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Post by Sin é Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:36 pm

Contepomi hasn't played a match for Argentina at 10 since Nov. 2010 (18 months ago). What is he doing in the "strongest nations poll"?
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Post by glamorganalun Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:49 pm

You would expect a flyhalf with 100 caps to be on the list, but I would have a decent flyhalf on the list like Willkinson.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:54 pm

Another opportunity for the Aussies to big up Quade Cooper who couldn't even hold down a tackler, never mind the 10 spot for the Wallabies. His Sinbad approach to kicking will leave him trailing behind O'Connor for the Wallabies test kicker, but he should get the 10 shirt by default given the inconsistencies of Giteau.

Trinh-Duc and Steyn are quite different 10s but both deliver what's required for their teams. Trinh-Duc the better playmaker when he's on song.

Sexton is slotting into the role, but needs more game time and tougher tests of his mettle before declaring him to be anything other than developing at test level.

I'd have Wilkinson in before Contemponi.
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Post by Sin é Wed 08 Jun 2011, 5:59 pm

glamorganalun wrote:You would expect a flyhalf with 100 caps to be on the list, but I would have a decent flyhalf on the list like Willkinson.

Wilko, ROG & Stephen Jones would prove too much competition for Sexton Very Happy


ruggerbyplayer - how about doing a poll on 2nd best flyhalf in the world under 28 or something Whistle
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Post by Taylorman Wed 08 Jun 2011, 7:15 pm

Quade Cooper is so far the form 10 of the superxv. Carter has been ok but absent a lot of it. Reds are on top due to his efforts more than any other I believe. He and Genia are the ones to target in the 3N and Wcup. They will be there, with Pocock, OConnor- who is brilliant, and Beale to make up for the tighthead deficiencies.

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Post by Mgall52 Wed 08 Jun 2011, 9:11 pm

Sexton is def up there but let's not forget about ROG, ok he can't tackle to save his life and is targeted as an easy channel to run at by every opposition team but his tactical kicking and game management are first class. And no I'm not a munster supporter I'm a true blue Leinster supporter. Sexto is a legend in the making the RWC will hopefully be the making of him.

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Post by nganboy Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:59 am

Piri Weepu
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Post by FerN Thu 09 Jun 2011, 7:13 am

I would really have thought that Quade would win the poll by far - I voted Morne, just to give him a vote. But then again I didn't see Sexton play that much.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 09 Jun 2011, 9:55 am

FerN
From an English perspective, Sexton is a very talented player but is still a bit of a work in progress - when he's good he is excellent but he can also be really poor on his bad days. For this reason I'd currently put Flood ahead of him, in that although TFs best may not be as good, his off days aren't as bad. It helps for Ireland to have an old head in ROG on the bench as back-up if things start to go awry.

With a couple of years more experience Sexton will almost certainly be ahead of most of the pack - he'll never be quite as creative ball in hand as Cooper, but the foundations are there to be a much more solid all round player.

Oh, and so far Sexton seems to be of the Charlie Hodgson school of goal kicking - when everything clicks, he can land kicks from anywhere, but he can also have days where the pressure or technique issues get to him and he'll miss a couple of shockers. Again, I think a bit more experience and more input from a specialist coach will iron out these issues (I think it's mostly a timing and rhythm thing for Sexton, unlike Hodgson, who for me has always had a technical issue with his standing foot planting too close to the ball and giving insufficient room to bring the kicking leg through on the right plane)

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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 10:18 am

dummy_half wrote:FerN
From an English perspective, Sexton is a very talented player but is still a bit of a work in progress - when he's good he is excellent but he can also be really poor on his bad days. For this reason I'd currently put Flood ahead of him, in that although TFs best may not be as good, his off days aren't as bad. It helps for Ireland to have an old head in ROG on the bench as back-up if things start to go awry.

Are you serious? How much have you watched of Sexton? On his good days, which are pretty frequent he's as good as any fly-half in Europe and on his bad days which aren't as often as Flood's bad days he's still better than Flood. Flood has never given a performance like Sexton has against England or Northampton.

Unlike Flood Sexton doesn't go missing in the big games and isn't rattled by physicality the way flood is.

As for ROG being back up. O'Gara has been plaing some of the best rugby of his career recently and still can't win the 10 shirt off Sexton. The fact that ROG gets the odd start is more to do with squad rotation than a sign that Sexton is not 1st choice. They also have different strengths i.e. ROG's tactical kicking is probably the best around. Due to Kidneys nonsensical selection policy Sexton has often been handicapped by O'Leary's awful service for Ireland whereas ROG has been paired with Stringer or Reddan.

Sexton might be gaining experience and still improving but this idea that he is not the finished article is nonsence. The guy is as complete a fly half as you'll find right now.
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Post by Boyne Thu 09 Jun 2011, 10:42 am

We're luck that Sexton came along Rodders and you are right about ROG playing the best rugby of his life. But as the years go by, his biggest weakness (his actual weakness physically) is becoming a huge issue. He ends up on his back side at least 5 times a game now. I think the ball boy bumped him in the Leinster game.

But... Sexton has big issues to sort out too. That penalty goal attempt in Cardiff was not too long ago.

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Post by Tayto Thu 09 Jun 2011, 10:52 am

I think you will find that Sexton and Reddan had issues with ball boys in the ML final too. Wink

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:02 am

roddersm wrote:Unlike Flood Sexton doesn't go missing in the big games and isn't rattled by physicality the way flood is.

I've seen Sexton go missing in international matches. Nevertheless, he's only going to get better and Ireland are fortunate to have O'Gara on hand when needed.

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Post by wales606 Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:09 am

I dont think I can vote for any of them

Quade Cooper - Cant kick, cant tackle - cant do many of the things that come with the job description of a 10

Morne Steyn - Accurate kicker but not much else

Jonny Sexton - Was excellent in Europe but doesnt yet put in consistant performances

Toby Flood - Has been quite poor since the middle of the 6N

François Trinh-Duc - Never really set the world on fire, cant kick goals

Felipe Contepomi - Been slipping over the years, now behind Wilkinson at Toulon.


I literally dont know who is the second best in the World....

You could even argue the case for

Stephen Jones (Lions 10)
Ronan O'Gara (Voted Best HC Player ever)
Jonny Wilkinson (Consistant 10 with exellent goal kicking)
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:11 am

luckless_pedestrian wrote:
roddersm wrote:Unlike Flood Sexton doesn't go missing in the big games and isn't rattled by physicality the way flood is.

I've seen Sexton go missing in international matches. Nevertheless, he's only going to get better and Ireland are fortunate to have O'Gara on hand when needed.

Examples? I've seen him have a few off days, particularly when supplied poor ball by O'leary e.g. France and he had a few off games with the boot when he returned from a bad injury last year. I don't recall him going missing though, in fact the bigger the game more often than not the better he's played.

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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:13 am

Sexton was exposed to top flight rugby too late. Discuss!
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:19 am

Rodders, I don't think there's much of a difference between 'having an off day' and being hauled off and 'going missing.' Didn't that happen against Scotland at Croke Park last year?

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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:30 am

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Rodders, I don't think there's much of a difference between 'having an off day' and being hauled off and 'going missing.' Didn't that happen against Scotland at Croke Park last year?

I think there is. Anyone can have an off day. Going missing suggests a player can't cope when the pressure comes on. I think the opposite is true of Sexton and has been from day one. He had injury problems last season but for me is getting better and better.

I think he's not being managed well by Kidney hence he doesn't always bring his Leinster form for Ireland. ROG is a vocal character and a favourite of Kidney's so having him around the squad and rotating can't have helped Sexton.

Stag I think he has been exposed just at the right time. He's clearly learnt a lot from contepomi and has really established himself now for Leinster and Ireland. He's far better than I though he would be when I first saw him as Contempomis understudy.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:44 am

I think I understand you now, Rodders. OK

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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:46 am

He's what though 26 next month. Comapre that to Quade Cooper, James Hook, Ronan O'Gara, Dan Carter, Jonny Wilkinson who all burst onto the scene much younger.
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:53 am

No problem Luckless. Look I'm not saying he's perfect or the next Carter or anything but I think he's more consistant and closer to the finished article than some people think. To keep ROG out of the side ahead of O'Gara when Kidney is the coach is no easy task.

He has a great skill set and attacking instincts and on his day is as good as anyone in europe. No idea where he is in the world pecking order, behind carter certainly, but it's all subjective anyway.
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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:55 am

roddersm wrote:He has a great skill set and attacking instincts and on his day is as good as anyone in europe. No idea where he is in the world pecking order, behind carter certainly, but it's all subjective anyway.

"On his day" is a phrase thrown around. Not a good enough indication. A top player will usually be "on his day".

EDIT - not Sexton related just in general about that phrase.
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 11:58 am

red_stag wrote:He's what though 26 next month. Comapre that to Quade Cooper, James Hook, Ronan O'Gara, Dan Carter, Jonny Wilkinson who all burst onto the scene much younger.

So he's been playing regularly at the top level since he was 23 then?

Carter played 12 outside Merghtens when he 1st came on the scene. Wilkinsons spent most of the time injured between the age of 23 and 31. O'Gara wasn't top class until his late 20's if you ask me and has got better with age.

Hook still hasn't established himself as a fly-half. Cooper is a work in progress.
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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:02 pm

roddersm wrote:
red_stag wrote:He's what though 26 next month. Comapre that to Quade Cooper, James Hook, Ronan O'Gara, Dan Carter, Jonny Wilkinson who all burst onto the scene much younger.

So he's been playing regularly at the top level since he was 23 then?

Carter played 12 outside Merghtens when he 1st came on the scene. Wilkinsons spent most of the time injured between the age of 23 and 31. O'Gara wasn't top class until his late 20's if you ask me and has got better with age.

Hook still hasn't established himself as a fly-half. Cooper is a work in progress.

- Wilkinson was Englands top point scorer at aged 21. He had a World Cup medal at aged 23
- Cooper is 3 years younger than Sexton
- O'Gara had a lot more Irish caps and a Lions tour under his belt by the time he was Sextons age
- As for Carter and Hook not being 10s the fact is they were getting top class rugby a lot earlier than Sexton

Its not a criticism of him. A late bloomer. Still a good player. Did we miss a trick holding off with him though.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:10 pm

I've voted for Morne Steyn. He's not a great outside half to watch, but my rationale is that I'm looking for an outside half from that list to manage a Test match. Sexton can do that too, but Steyn's a more reliable goal kicker. I love watching Quade Cooper play, but if I was a selector I wouldn't trust him.


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Post by Sin é Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:14 pm

red_stag wrote:
Its not a criticism of him. A late bloomer. Still a good player. Did we miss a trick holding off with him though.

First time I saw Sexton play live was at the 'Old Stand' against Ulster (contempomi was just coming back from a injury I think). I thought he was excellent and I couldn't understand why Leinster continued to play Contempomi at 10. Sexton has said that the problem he had was that he tried to play Contempomi's game and it didn't suit him (or Leinster). He had to develop his own style. He also had to put the work in with his kicking. Up to that, Sexton rarely did the kicking for Leinster, which was ok there as there were a couple of people who could take the kicks (Contempomi, McFadden, Nacewa, Berne). But not ok for Ireland who only had ROG really.

I think you are well off rodders on your comments about Kidney/Sexton. Kidney saved his Leinster careeer for him (he was looking to move to France as he wasn't getting a look in at Leinster). If he can't handle competition in the squad, he shouldn't be there. (He seems to get on very well with ROG now). Kidney has been exceptionally patient anyway with him (as he has with Luke Fitz).

Since Sexton's poor first 6Ns season when he claimed he was injured, he has since said that he went to a kicking coach who changed his style of kicking (he may have thought at the time it was an injury that was the problem).

So, to sum up, Contempomi (& Holwell etc). were the reason why Sexton didn't progress sooner.

EDIT: He could also have put a lot more work into his place kicking a bit earlier. Reminds me of Bernard Jackman who sort of thought it was odd that when both in Connacht Jerry Flannery practised his throwing a lot. He would have been a great hooker if he did the same.


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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:22 pm

Sin man management is a big part of being a coach. Every player is different. Sexton clearly thrives on pressure and having a leadership role.

I believe Kidney's rotatation hasn't helped Sexton find his feet internationally and I believe up until this season ROG has been undermining him publically. They seem to have a better relationship now but this hasn't always been the case.

You won't see wilkinson publically criticise flood or direct him from the sidelines the ROG did against Scotland.

It's nothing to do with competition. Some of Kidneys rotation has been simply pointless. If Sexton is the better player, which he is, then he should start all the competitve games.
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Post by Sin é Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:33 pm

Rodders - its Saint Jonny!

Problem that Kidney had was that he had to win the odd match here or there to keep supporters going to matches to pay for the Aviva.

I think you are wrong rodders about O'Gara undermining him. No one would have taken any notice of that if a) Sexton hadn't made a spectacle of himself screaming into O'Gara face; b) if Sexton hadn't been playing terrible and needed to be taken off for Ireland to win.

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Post by Islingtonv2 Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:37 pm

I'd say Nick Evans is the best fly half in Europe by some distance.

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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:42 pm

Sin é wrote:Rodders - its Saint Jonny!

Problem that Kidney had was that he had to win the odd match here or there to keep supporters going to matches to pay for the Aviva.

I think you are wrong rodders about O'Gara undermining him. No one would have taken any notice of that if a) Sexton hadn't made a spectacle of himself screaming into O'Gara face; b) if Sexton hadn't been playing terrible and needed to be taken off for Ireland to win.


Thats fine Sin. It's just my opinion the Kidney hasn't managed Sexton well at all. I think the rotation with ROG has been poorly managed.

I don't think Kidneys man management is good at all and although it works with some players it certainly doesn't work with others.
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Post by Guest Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:44 pm

Islingtonv2 wrote:I'd say Nick Evans is the best fly half in Europe by some distance.

I'd forgotten about him. Heck of a player!

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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:47 pm

Rodders - are you seriously arguing the only way for Sexton to truly excel is to just use him alone. ROG nearly always had Humphreys looking over the shoulder.
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 12:53 pm

red_stag wrote:Rodders - are you seriously arguing the only way for Sexton to truly excel is to just use him alone. ROG nearly always had Humphreys looking over the shoulder.

No but theres a time and place for rotation and it isn't in the middle of the 6N.

When ROG put his foot down that he wanted to play every minute of every game the Humphreys didn't set foot on the pitch again. ROG and Humphreys were much closer in terms of age and ability but that situation wasn't handled very well either.

I'm not saying Sexton shouldn't be dropped or subbed if he's playing poorly but rotating him and ROG needlessly is not going to help him develop into the leader we need him to be.

In my oppinion the rotation is about massaging ROG's ego and not about what is best for the team.
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Post by Sin é Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:02 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:Rodders - its Saint Jonny!

Problem that Kidney had was that he had to win the odd match here or there to keep supporters going to matches to pay for the Aviva.

I think you are wrong rodders about O'Gara undermining him. No one would have taken any notice of that if a) Sexton hadn't made a spectacle of himself screaming into O'Gara face; b) if Sexton hadn't been playing terrible and needed to be taken off for Ireland to win.


Thats fine Sin. It's just my opinion the Kidney hasn't managed Sexton well at all. I think the rotation with ROG has been poorly managed.

I don't think Kidneys man management is good at all and although it works with some players it certainly doesn't work with others.

From all accounts, Kidney's man management is second to none. All his teams have shown great team spirit and fight, which is the important thing (the collective, rather than the individual).

You also have to balance up the effect of a loss on the team (with your outhalf playing like a drain) and doing nothing about it.

Anyway, I don't think Sexton is the fragile little flower you make him out to be. His parents are from Kerry and spends a lot of time down there. And as someone said recently (when talking about how good winning at sport is good for the national psychic), has anyone every come across a Kilkenny, Kerry or Cork man that wasn't over flowing with confidence.

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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:06 pm

roddersm wrote: ROG and Humphreys were much closer in terms of age and ability but that situation wasn't handled very well either.

I'm not saying Sexton shouldn't be dropped or subbed if he's playing poorly but rotating him and ROG needlessly is not going to help him develop into the leader we need him to be.

In my oppinion the rotation is about massaging ROG's ego and not about what is best for the team.

Ah your another of these "Kidney is Munster biased" people is it?

EDIT - Smile to show joking!


Last edited by red_stag on Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:07 pm

Sin é wrote: has anyone every come across a Kilkenny, Kerry or Cork man that wasn't over flowing with confidence.


Not on here anyway Smile

You may be right but that is my opinion on the Kidney/Sexton/ROG situation so far.

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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:11 pm

red_stag wrote:
Ah your another of these "Kidney is Munster biased" people is it?

I wish I could say no to that stag but thats what it looks like at times. He's certainly bias towards certain Munster players and ROG is one of them.

Leo Cullen, Paddy Wallace or Tom Court don't get a start every 3 games or teh last 15 min of each match due to "squad rotation" do they?
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Post by red_stag Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:13 pm

Rodders - wow you actually think our coach is biased?
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:15 pm

red_stag wrote:Rodders - wow you actually think our coach is biased?

Sorry stag didn't see you were joking before.

Bias is maybe too strong a term but he certainly like to stick with what he knows and is very loyal to some players, but not others.
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Post by Sin é Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:24 pm

roddersm wrote:
red_stag wrote:
Ah your another of these "Kidney is Munster biased" people is it?

I wish I could say no to that stag but thats what it looks like at times. He's certainly bias towards certain Munster players and ROG is one of them.

Leo Cullen, Paddy Wallace or Tom Court don't get a start every 3 games or teh last 15 min of each match due to "squad rotation" do they?

Maybe Leo Cullen, Paddy Wallace or Tom Court are not match winners!

Obviously you don't rate O'Gara at all if you think he is just being brought on to massage his ego. By your comments, you'd swear that anytime it has happened Sexton was playing brilliantly.
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Post by rodders Thu 09 Jun 2011, 1:36 pm

No sin I rate Rog very highly. He's been one of the best in Europe for a decade and has been playing very well. I just believe Sexton is better, younger and has a better skill set for the game that Ireland need to play.

Sexton may not have always played brilliantly but he's certainly been dropped(rotated) when he hasn't been playing badly, which subsequently hasn't helped his form IMHO.

For contrast Luke Fitzgerald, Dennis Leamy and gordon d'arcy have been given chance after chance when they needed to be sent to the knackers yard.
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