Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

First topic message reminder :

AdamT wrote:I don't care about him calling out Floyd lol. He can't move up a division, but will move down to fight a smaller man.

You all cream yourselves over him, so yes that suggests you think he is great.

Who "creams themselves" over him? Do you have any examples of this gushing praise? Any articles claiming he's "top ten definitely" etc.?

Ward and Hopkins both called Floyd out, too. It's because they'd make a fortune to fight a guy who couldn't pop a balloon.

True but Leonard did go to Montreal truss, thats practically France.

Think we all know that ray loses his '0' if the Dave boy green fight took place in the york hall.

Think we all know Ward loses his 0 if the Kovalev fight takes place in Moscow

catchweight wrote:Think we all know Ward loses his 0 if the Kovalev fight takes place in Moscow

Assuming he doesn't lose his passport..

catchweight wrote:Think we all know Ward loses his 0 if the Kovalev fight takes place in Moscow

I imagine Manny would have got the decision against Floyd in the Phillipines..

Pedantic dribble.

Dylan1979 wrote:

catchweight wrote:Think we all know Ward loses his 0 if the Kovalev fight takes place in Moscow

Assuming he doesn't lose his passport..

The Lady doth protest too much...me thinks.

catchweight wrote:The money being in America is a moot point regards Ward. Irrelevant. If anything, more lucrative bouts would have been available to Ward if he had been willing to travel.

The point was made broadly that if every boxer adopted Wards mentality, then no big fights would happen. I agree with this. He relies on other fighters making the sacrifices. If they dont, then the fights dont happen.

I dont buy at all he is open to travelling, because if he was he would have done it, especially in the Super 6. Clearly he has a problem with it. He deserves ciriticism for that, in  tournament where every other fighter had to travel multiple times. And no I dont belive at all that Kessler or Abraham preffered to travel to the States to face Ward for US exposure rather than have the fight at home. I think all of the other fighters in the competition were willing to make the sacrifices to make the fights happen. Apart from Ward.

There are fine margins boxing which can hinge on something as simple as home advantage or the disruption caused by travelling. If Froch v Dirrell happens in the States, maybe Froch loses a decision. If Abraham v Dirrell happens in Germany, maybe Abraham is awarded a TKO win. If Ward v Kessler happens in Denmrk, maybe Ward has a ref on his case and gets deducted points or thrown out of the fight. Unfortunately Ward makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. A big reason why I dont like the guy.

Or the fact you don't like the guy is a big reason why you're labouring a point nobody is really arguing with. I didn't say he was happy to travel I suggested if he was born out of the USA he'd have done it because he'd have had to. If kovalev was an Olympic champion from Oakland he might not have moved much either.

Fighting at home is an advantage, Ward fights at home, though had the fights you quote been remotely close the argument would be stronger. Truth is I wasn't party to the negotiations for the super 6 and neither were you, until someone shows us the evidence that Ward refused to fight abroad it's just supposition. I'm certainly not arguing that having his fights at home wasn't  an advantage for him.

I've caveated home advantage, he p*ssed away his prime in contractual disputes, he's a smarmy git, he plays the god card. There's plenty not to like in my book, but his record speaks for itself caveats or not.

Would he lose his 0 in Moscow? I thought he lost it in vegas so probably, though kov judging by the Chilemba fight kov appears to fight better 'away'.

I thought Ward won his super 6 fights comfortably. Doubt travelling would made any difference.

Lot of hate for Mr Ward. Another successful black American not liked on here. If Ward was Eastern European, you boys would be all over him.

milkyboy wrote:

catchweight wrote:The money being in America is a moot point regards Ward. Irrelevant. If anything, more lucrative bouts would have been available to Ward if he had been willing to travel.

The point was made broadly that if every boxer adopted Wards mentality, then no big fights would happen. I agree with this. He relies on other fighters making the sacrifices. If they dont, then the fights dont happen.

I dont buy at all he is open to travelling, because if he was he would have done it, especially in the Super 6. Clearly he has a problem with it. He deserves ciriticism for that, in  tournament where every other fighter had to travel multiple times. And no I dont belive at all that Kessler or Abraham preffered to travel to the States to face Ward for US exposure rather than have the fight at home. I think all of the other fighters in the competition were willing to make the sacrifices to make the fights happen. Apart from Ward.

There are fine margins boxing which can hinge on something as simple as home advantage or the disruption caused by travelling. If Froch v Dirrell happens in the States, maybe Froch loses a decision. If Abraham v Dirrell happens in Germany, maybe Abraham is awarded a TKO win. If Ward v Kessler happens in Denmrk, maybe Ward has a ref on his case and gets deducted points or thrown out of the fight. Unfortunately Ward makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. A big reason why I dont like the guy.

Or the fact you don't like the guy is a big reason why you're labouring a point nobody is really arguing with. I didn't say he was happy to travel I suggested if he was born out of the USA he'd have done it because he'd have had to. If kovalev was an Olympic champion from Oakland he might not have moved much either.

Fighting at home is an advantage, Ward fights at home, though had the fights you quote been remotely close the argument would be stronger. Truth is I wasn't party to the negotiations for the super 6 and neither were you, until someone shows us the evidence that Ward refused to fight abroad it's just supposition. I'm certainly not arguing that having his fights at home wasn't  an advantage for him.

I've caveated home advantage, he p*ssed away his prime in contractual disputes, he's a smarmy git, he plays the god card. There's plenty not to like in my book, but his record speaks for itself caveats or not.

Would he lose his 0 in Moscow? I thought he lost it in vegas so probably, though kov judging by the Chilemba fight kov appears to fight better 'away'.

Sorry but you are arguing the point. It was made above that if all fighters adopted Wards attitude then big fights would seldom come off. You argued the point by saying it was different for Americans because other fighters travelled to the U.S in order to follow the money rather than to prove themselves. A usualy valid point, but not with respect to Ward because he neither made big money in the U.S and many of his opponets travelled when they didnt have to in order to make the fights happen in the Super 6. Less of a strong argument in the current era of boxing where the U.S is no longer the same mecca it was. There are home based fighters in Germany, the UK, Canada and Asia that can make more money fighting domestially than travelling to the U.S. I dont think it would have made more financial sense for Ward to fight any of Abraham, Kessler or Froch in the States. Those three would have enjoyed larger domestic gates and since Showtime had already fromted up the money, the fights were going to air for U.S tv time irrespective of location.

I have said there is no excuse for Ward not travelling and again you argued the point with some thin arguments like maybe his opponents would rather have travelled to gain U.S exposure (a weak argument) or that because no one was privy to the negotiations we cant draw a conclusion that Ward was unwilling to travel (another weak argument given his track record).

I havent disputed his record or his abilty. I am disputing his willingness to travel and the justifications for it. Hes a good fighter, but hes constantly held an advantage over his main rivals and his unwillingness to concede these advantages to make fights happen makes him dislikeable. The point made that if every fighter acted like Ward, big fights would seldom come off is more than valid.

Though Ward has been in these big fights, so you are wrong. Wish others had his ambition and challenged themselves.

Hes had them because his opponents have been the ones willing to travel.

AdamT wrote:I thought Ward won his super 6 fights comfortably. Doubt travelling would made any difference.

Lot of hate for Mr Ward. Another successful black American not liked on here. If Ward was Eastern European, you boys would be all over him.

If Ward was Eastern European he would not be boxing. You really think he'd get the protection over there that he has enjoyed in the US?

The Super 6 was a tournament devised by Hershman with one intention, to create a new American star, who better than the Olympic gold medalist. Ever wonder why Bute was not allowed in the tournament?

Dylan if your a troll, I salute you. If you are serious, you don't have a clue about boxing. I hope it's the former and you're stirring.

Please tell me how you think his wrestling tactics and constant fouling would go down if he was an Eastern Euro fighter fighting in the US or UK against one of their champs or any of their fighters? Do you think the referee would play along ala Richard Byrd?

He would not have an '0' that's for sure

Might not have an 0, but Ward is still one of the elite fighters today.

I get death for slagging a man, that is too scared to test himself and made a name feasting on lower level fighters. You guys are blasting a guy that has already dominated a decent division and is up now trying to do the same with another. Unbelievable!!

AdamT wrote:Might not have an 0, but Ward is still one of the elite fighters today.

I get death for slagging a man, that is too scared to test himself and made a name feasting on lower level fighters. You guys are blasting a guy that has already dominated a decent division and is up now trying to do the same with another. Unbelievable!!

Dominated a division? Would not fight Bute, even when Bute offered to fight him in Cali

Vacated instead of fighting Dirrell

Degale called him out at least half a dozen times, Ward fights Edwin Rodriguez instead

As for Golovkin - It's already been said he can only beat who is in his division at the time.

'Lower level fighters' - You do make me laugh

Pudding pot Paul Smith and Brand, who took him the distance, are hardly top notch opposition. Smith even wobbled Ward.

Did not Beat Bute?

Also Degale called him out, really?

Dylan Ward is one of the few active boxers that was undisputed the man in his division.

The fighters on GGG's record are pretty pish, beside ms Jacobs. He's no great either, but he's decent.

AdamT wrote:Did not Beat Bute?

Also Degale called him out, really?

Dylan Ward is one of the few active boxers that was undisputed the man in his division.

The fighters on GGG's record are pretty pish, beside ms Jacobs. He's no great either, but he's decent.

Ward's career is about as authentic as Hulk Hogan's.

How do you respect a fighter whose never fought on a level playing field?

All Ward's degenerate crackhead homo fan base care about is that he wins. That is all that matters he can cheat all he wants as long as he gets the win so they can live through his accomplishments and take credit for them.

I can spin it too. All GGG fans care about, is him knocking out bums. Don't want him to step up, because they know he will lose.

Ward will beat Kovalev and Canelo is going to beat GGG this year. Golden boy are going to strike at the right time.

The one Eastern Block fighter I do like is Lomachenko. He's the real deal.

catchweight wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

catchweight wrote:The money being in America is a moot point regards Ward. Irrelevant. If anything, more lucrative bouts would have been available to Ward if he had been willing to travel.

The point was made broadly that if every boxer adopted Wards mentality, then no big fights would happen. I agree with this. He relies on other fighters making the sacrifices. If they dont, then the fights dont happen.

I dont buy at all he is open to travelling, because if he was he would have done it, especially in the Super 6. Clearly he has a problem with it. He deserves ciriticism for that, in  tournament where every other fighter had to travel multiple times. And no I dont belive at all that Kessler or Abraham preffered to travel to the States to face Ward for US exposure rather than have the fight at home. I think all of the other fighters in the competition were willing to make the sacrifices to make the fights happen. Apart from Ward.

There are fine margins boxing which can hinge on something as simple as home advantage or the disruption caused by travelling. If Froch v Dirrell happens in the States, maybe Froch loses a decision. If Abraham v Dirrell happens in Germany, maybe Abraham is awarded a TKO win. If Ward v Kessler happens in Denmrk, maybe Ward has a ref on his case and gets deducted points or thrown out of the fight. Unfortunately Ward makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. A big reason why I dont like the guy.

Or the fact you don't like the guy is a big reason why you're labouring a point nobody is really arguing with. I didn't say he was happy to travel I suggested if he was born out of the USA he'd have done it because he'd have had to. If kovalev was an Olympic champion from Oakland he might not have moved much either.

Fighting at home is an advantage, Ward fights at home, though had the fights you quote been remotely close the argument would be stronger. Truth is I wasn't party to the negotiations for the super 6 and neither were you, until someone shows us the evidence that Ward refused to fight abroad it's just supposition. I'm certainly not arguing that having his fights at home wasn't  an advantage for him.

I've caveated home advantage, he p*ssed away his prime in contractual disputes, he's a smarmy git, he plays the god card. There's plenty not to like in my book, but his record speaks for itself caveats or not.

Would he lose his 0 in Moscow? I thought he lost it in vegas so probably, though kov judging by the Chilemba fight kov appears to fight better 'away'.

Sorry but you are arguing the point. It was made above that if all fighters adopted Wards attitude then big fights would seldom come off. You argued the point by saying it was different for Americans because other fighters travelled to the U.S in order to follow the money rather than to prove themselves. A usualy valid point, but not with respect to Ward because he neither made big money in the U.S and many of his opponets travelled when they didnt have to in order to make the fights happen in the Super 6. Less of a strong argument in the current era of boxing where the U.S is no longer the same mecca it was. There are home based fighters in Germany, the UK, Canada and Asia that can make more money fighting domestially than travelling to the U.S. I dont think it would have made more financial sense for Ward to fight any of Abraham, Kessler or Froch in the States. Those three would have enjoyed larger domestic gates and since Showtime had already fromted up the money, the fights were going to air for U.S tv time irrespective of location.

I have said there is no excuse for Ward not travelling and again you argued the point with some thin arguments like maybe his opponents would rather have travelled to gain U.S exposure (a weak argument) or that because no one was privy to the negotiations we cant draw a conclusion that Ward was unwilling to travel (another weak argument given his track record).

I havent disputed his record or his abilty. I am disputing his willingness to travel and the justifications for it. Hes a good fighter, but hes constantly held an advantage over his main rivals and his unwillingness to concede these advantages to make fights happen makes him dislikeable. The point made that if every fighter acted like Ward, big fights would seldom come off is more than valid.

So you want to argue about whether I'm arguing. You only get that privilege if you marry me.

I'll spell out what I agree with and what I dont. Ward HASNT travelled, he has had home advantage, and that gives him an edge.

You're then making the point that he REFUSES to travel. And I'm saying we don't know he has ever refused. We can surmise he prefers to fight at home... as do most fighters.

Reality is all big fights are a result of promoters managers and tv companies cutting a deal. His starting position would be to want the fight at home, he got his way. It doesn't mean if showtime had said, you're going to Denmark for this one Andre, that he wouldnt have gone. It means Kessler signed to fight him in the states presumably without a gun to his head. We simply don't know.

If you want to lambast him for not insisting his second fight (against an American by the way) was fought in europe then so be it. Both semi's were fought in the states including Froch v glen Johnson which would make more sense in the uk, so presumably that was a tournament decision which would apply to the final also. I'm guessing on this and happy to be corrected as it's immaterial to the point. Other than, name the fights he refused to travel for if you want to establish fact over opinion.

So ward prefers to fight at home and he got a cushioned ride in the super 6, I've said that. Supposition but very possible showtime wanted an easy passage for the US Olympian, though he did get the favourite first up. Since then he's been an unbeaten undisputed champion and he gets to call the shots. That's just how it works.

As for the balance of power meaning more money in Europe now, certainly its more than it was... after the froch Kessler 2 money spinner, he said he'd come to Wembley for Froch, only for Froch to make noises that it would be an ugly fight and he wanted Chavez. I also believe there was an agreement for him to fight Kessler in Denmark, can't remember when or why, but it didn't happen. Basically if the money talked, it sounded like he was open to it... just like everyone else.

I don't think there's much doubt he's strong willed and has a high opinion of his worth and that probably makes him hard to deal with.

In short though he hasn't fought outside the US because he hasn't had to... and whose to say any of these road warriors would have done much different in his circumstances.

AdamT wrote:I can spin it too. All GGG fans care about, is him knocking out bums. Don't want him to step up, because they know he will lose.

Ward will beat Kovalev and Canelo is going to beat GGG this year. Golden boy are going to strike at the right time.

The one Eastern Block fighter I do like is Lomachenko. He's the real deal.

The only thing beating Kovalev in that fight are the judges.

Canelo beating Golovkin? He barely got past Cotto and Lara, weight draining Chavez but yeah it's so obvious he's going to beat Golovkin. If he couldn't stop Cotto please tell me how the fo3k is he going to stop Golovkin? He can balloon up to his usual 175+ fight night weight all he likes, he ain't doing sh1t against Golovkin.

What has Catchnelo ever done in the ring against any real Middleweight to make you think he's going to beat the king at 160? If I come up to you in the street and take your chain what does that make you? That's exactly what Canelo is - Golovkin's bitch!

Oscar is looking to get the biggest split he possibly can because he knows his Ginger cash cow will not be the same fighter after going in with Golovkin. The excuse was already there for the Floyd loss, 'oh he's still a little too green' but this time Golden Girls won't have a leg to stand on after the beating.

Canelo has good defence and timing. GGG is the king of bums, because that's all he has beat.

When has Canelo ever shown this 'good defence and timing' against a real middleweight?

King of bums? Please explain the following :

Liam Smith
Amir Khan
James Kirkland
Alfredo Angulo
Matthew Hatton

Why does he have to show it against a real middleweight for someone to think he can?

GGG would rightfully be favourite, he hits hard and Alvarez isn't exactly the quickest on his feet like Jacobs would be so that fight doesn't give us any real indication of how it would go. GGG hasn't fought anyone as good as Alvarez nor has Alvarez faced anyone who hits as hard as GGG.

Alvarez's best performances have come against guys that like to engage and move forward, being defensively sound and having good timing means he can counter them with heavy counters something he would look to do against Golovkin. Different level entirely but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion at all.

You can act like a petulant child all you want Dylan but without adding some substance to your anti non eastern European ramblings it doesn't mean a damn thing.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Why does he have to show it against a real middleweight for someone to think he can?

GGG would rightfully be favourite, he hits hard and Alvarez isn't exactly the quickest on his feet like Jacobs would be so that fight doesn't give us any real indication of how it would go. GGG hasn't fought anyone as good as Alvarez nor has Alvarez faced anyone who hits as hard as GGG.

Alvarez's best performances have come against guys that like to engage and move forward, being defensively sound and having good timing means he can counter them with heavy counters something he would look to do against Golovkin. Different level entirely but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion at all.

You can act like a petulant child all you want Dylan but without adding some substance to your anti non eastern European ramblings it doesn't mean a damn thing.

It doesn't mean sh1t if he's only going in with fighters he's bringing up or down to Caneloweight.

I'd change my opinion if he had the balls to fight against an opponent at their weight class.

'Oh i'm not 160 anymore, i'm moving back down to 154' - duck Golovkin
'Oh i'm not 154 either, I'll fight at 155 - Caneloweight' - duck Andrade

As for the 'anti non Eastern Euro ramblings' - Just because I have no time for two of the biggest bitches in Boxing - Ward & Canelo, doesn't make me 'anti non Eastern Euro'.

Same old same old though, speak the truth and they waste no time in reaching for the race card.

Funny how you keep talking the same old sh1t that Golovkin should move up - to fight which big name exactly? He is not a big middleweight, enters the ring max 171, highest ever on record was 173.

Never heard you saying Crawford should move up. Fights at 140, enters the ring at 160, but that's okay right?

Imagine the great fights Crawford could be in at 147, the type of fights real boxing fans want to see, not the weight bully sh1t we're fed on a regular basis in modern day boxing.

Crawford just fought Postol his fiercest rival at the weight so a pretty poor analogy but it's ok for GGG to drag up a host of 154lbers isn't it?

Crawford has a pair of balls so will move up in time, i'm struggling to see the comparison to Golovkin who seems happy staying at Middleweight fighting sub par opposition.

Your posts follow the same pattern over and over again, Americans are bad, Eastern Europeans are good, you're too transparent to try and deny it Dylan.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Crawford just fought Postol his fiercest rival at the weight so a pretty poor analogy but it's ok for GGG to drag up a host of 154lbers isn't it?

Crawford has a pair of balls so will move up in time, i'm struggling to see the comparison to Golovkin who seems happy staying at Middleweight fighting sub par opposition.

Your posts follow the same pattern over and over again, Americans are bad, Eastern Europeans are good, you're too transparent to try and deny it Dylan.

He's only staying at 160 to fight Canelo. After that he should move up.
But yeah you're right, he should just walk away from his biggest payday.

Which 154lbers has he dragged up? Has he not beat all the top guys at 160lb?

Postol at least made the fight with Crawford, If Canelo had got in the ring with GGG last year, who knows,
GGG may be at 168 right now.

Not all Americans are bad. I got nothing but respect for someone like Tim Bradley, dude comes to fight, Lamont Peterson too. I Poopie on Danny Garcia all day long but that's okay with you cuz he's not black right?

I spoke about Spence Jr and his body transformation, doesn't mean I don't like him, just stating the obvious.
Spence comes across as a top bloke in every interview I've seen him do and he too comes to fight, not to foul or wrestle or get on his bike. I'd be highly surprised if anybody didn't like the kid.

Call it what you want but if I see a protected bitch, I'ma call it as I see it.

You poopie on Garcia for what reason exactly, he's fought two unification fights in two different weight divisions which is more than most around today; Khan, Judah, Matthysse, Guerrero, Peterson, Herrera, Thurman with ageing versions of Malignaggi and Morales isn't a decent record. He's got lucky in two of those fights but his opposition is a lot better than he's given credit for.

So you recognise that Crawfords situation is nothing like Golovkins and was a poor attempt at American bashing yet again?

Golovkin's 154lb opposition;

Milton Nunez- Who?
Nilson Julio Tapia- Who?
Kassim Ouma
Gabriel Rosado
Nobuhiro Ishida
Matthew Macklin
Kell Brook

He like everyone else likes picking on smaller men, it just so happens that most of them weren't any good at the lower weight so it's less noticeable than when he fought Brook.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You poopie on Garcia for what reason exactly, he's fought two unification fights in two different weight divisions which is more than most around today; Khan, Judah, Matthysse, Guerrero, Peterson, Herrera, Thurman with ageing versions of Malignaggi and Morales isn't a decent record. He's got lucky in two of those fights but his opposition is a lot better than he's given credit for.

So you recognise that Crawfords situation is nothing like Golovkins and was a poor attempt at American bashing yet again?

Golovkin's 154lb opposition;

Milton Nunez- Who?
Nilson Julio Tapia- Who?
Kassim Ouma
Gabriel Rosado
Nobuhiro Ishida
Matthew Macklin
Kell Brook

He like everyone else likes picking on smaller men, it just so happens that most of them weren't any good at the lower weight so it's less noticeable than when he fought Brook.

How can you deny that Crawford is not a weight bully? He enters the ring at 160 ffs!
I like Bud, but he should go up to 147 and do himself justice, and give the fans some great fights in the process. Who wouldn't pay to watch Bud v Spence Jr or Thurman?

Garcia got a gift against Peterson and get's preferential treatment from the WBC.

Dylan1979 wrote:
How can you deny that Crawford is not a weight bully? He enters the ring at 160 ffs!
I like Bud, but he should go up to 147 and do himself justice, and give the fans some great fights in the process. Who wouldn't pay to watch Bud v Spence Jr or Thurman?

Garcia got a gift against Peterson and get's preferential treatment from the WBC.

I agree with that sentence entirely, the only weight that matters is the weigh in weight; Postol isn't exactly a small Light-Welterweight is he nor was Dulorme.

Once Crawford has dealt with Indongo which should be an easy fight to make he'll move up.

milkyboy wrote:

catchweight wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

catchweight wrote:The money being in America is a moot point regards Ward. Irrelevant. If anything, more lucrative bouts would have been available to Ward if he had been willing to travel.

The point was made broadly that if every boxer adopted Wards mentality, then no big fights would happen. I agree with this. He relies on other fighters making the sacrifices. If they dont, then the fights dont happen.

I dont buy at all he is open to travelling, because if he was he would have done it, especially in the Super 6. Clearly he has a problem with it. He deserves ciriticism for that, in  tournament where every other fighter had to travel multiple times. And no I dont belive at all that Kessler or Abraham preffered to travel to the States to face Ward for US exposure rather than have the fight at home. I think all of the other fighters in the competition were willing to make the sacrifices to make the fights happen. Apart from Ward.

There are fine margins boxing which can hinge on something as simple as home advantage or the disruption caused by travelling. If Froch v Dirrell happens in the States, maybe Froch loses a decision. If Abraham v Dirrell happens in Germany, maybe Abraham is awarded a TKO win. If Ward v Kessler happens in Denmrk, maybe Ward has a ref on his case and gets deducted points or thrown out of the fight. Unfortunately Ward makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. A big reason why I dont like the guy.

Or the fact you don't like the guy is a big reason why you're labouring a point nobody is really arguing with. I didn't say he was happy to travel I suggested if he was born out of the USA he'd have done it because he'd have had to. If kovalev was an Olympic champion from Oakland he might not have moved much either.

Fighting at home is an advantage, Ward fights at home, though had the fights you quote been remotely close the argument would be stronger. Truth is I wasn't party to the negotiations for the super 6 and neither were you, until someone shows us the evidence that Ward refused to fight abroad it's just supposition. I'm certainly not arguing that having his fights at home wasn't  an advantage for him.

I've caveated home advantage, he p*ssed away his prime in contractual disputes, he's a smarmy git, he plays the god card. There's plenty not to like in my book, but his record speaks for itself caveats or not.

Would he lose his 0 in Moscow? I thought he lost it in vegas so probably, though kov judging by the Chilemba fight kov appears to fight better 'away'.

Sorry but you are arguing the point. It was made above that if all fighters adopted Wards attitude then big fights would seldom come off. You argued the point by saying it was different for Americans because other fighters travelled to the U.S in order to follow the money rather than to prove themselves. A usualy valid point, but not with respect to Ward because he neither made big money in the U.S and many of his opponets travelled when they didnt have to in order to make the fights happen in the Super 6. Less of a strong argument in the current era of boxing where the U.S is no longer the same mecca it was. There are home based fighters in Germany, the UK, Canada and Asia that can make more money fighting domestially than travelling to the U.S. I dont think it would have made more financial sense for Ward to fight any of Abraham, Kessler or Froch in the States. Those three would have enjoyed larger domestic gates and since Showtime had already fromted up the money, the fights were going to air for U.S tv time irrespective of location.

I have said there is no excuse for Ward not travelling and again you argued the point with some thin arguments like maybe his opponents would rather have travelled to gain U.S exposure (a weak argument) or that because no one was privy to the negotiations we cant draw a conclusion that Ward was unwilling to travel (another weak argument given his track record).

I havent disputed his record or his abilty. I am disputing his willingness to travel and the justifications for it. Hes a good fighter, but hes constantly held an advantage over his main rivals and his unwillingness to concede these advantages to make fights happen makes him dislikeable. The point made that if every fighter acted like Ward, big fights would seldom come off is more than valid.

So you want to argue about whether I'm arguing. You only get that privilege if you marry me.

I'll spell out what I agree with and what I dont. Ward HASNT travelled, he has had home advantage, and that gives him an edge.

You're then making the point that he REFUSES to travel. And I'm saying we don't know he has ever refused. We can surmise he prefers to fight at home... as do most fighters.

Reality is all big fights are a result of promoters managers and tv companies cutting a deal. His starting position would be to want the fight at home, he got his way. It doesn't mean if showtime had said, you're going to Denmark for this one Andre, that he wouldnt have gone. It means Kessler signed to fight him in the states presumably without a gun to his head. We simply don't know.

If you want to lambast him for not insisting his second fight (against an American by the way) was fought in europe then so be it. Both semi's were fought in the states including Froch v glen Johnson which would make more sense in the uk, so presumably that was a tournament decision which would apply to the final also. I'm guessing on this and happy to be corrected as it's immaterial to the point. Other than, name the fights he refused to travel for if you want to establish fact over opinion.

So ward prefers to fight at home and he got a cushioned ride in the super 6, I've said that. Supposition but very possible showtime wanted an easy passage for the US Olympian, though he did get the favourite first up. Since then he's been an unbeaten undisputed champion and he gets to call the shots. That's just how it works.

As for the balance of power meaning more money in Europe now, certainly its more than it was... after the froch Kessler 2 money spinner, he said he'd come to Wembley for Froch, only for Froch to make noises that it would be an ugly fight and he wanted Chavez. I also believe there was an agreement for him to fight Kessler in Denmark, can't remember when or why, but it didn't happen. Basically if the money talked, it sounded like he was open to it... just like everyone else.

I don't think there's much doubt he's strong willed and has a high opinion of his worth and that probably makes him hard to deal with.

In short though he hasn't fought outside the US because he hasn't had to... and whose to say any of these road warriors would have done much different in his circumstances.

So can I deduce that despite your earlier assertion that you were not making excuses for Ward travelling or rguing the point, that you are actually making excuses for him and arguing the point after all then?

I think its weak argument put forward for Ward in relation to his openess to travelling. It relies on the supposition that that the Super Six tournament offered him home advantage for all fights and demanded every other fighter travel. If he was open to trvelling, the Super Six would have revealed this. He made a big deal about fighting outside of California for the final. Froch, Kessler and Abraham - all European based fighters with stronger domestic followings than Ward - travelled to the States to face him. Even US based fighters have to travel to Wards home town for the fight.

There was no real justification, commercial or otherwise for Ward not travelling. It was totally unreasonable that he alone of all the comptitors got home advantage in every single fight. If you want to split hairs over what amounts to REFUSING to travel over not being willing to travel over not being open to travel or however else the statement is phrased then so be it. I think its pretty obvious myself. If his opponent isnt willing to make the sacrifice then it looks like the fight doesnt happen. He is a stay at home fighter, who has been fortunate to have had the Super 6 as a vehicle that his opponent have been the ones willing to travel to accomodate him. Otherwise, I think he ends up a talented fighter spending his time fighting nobodies in quarter full oracle arena in Oakland complaining to the press that nobody will fight him.

you can deduce whatever you want to, its a free country, but i've been pretty consistent with that i've agreed with, which is largely the stating the obvious bit that he prefers to fight at home, and what i don't... which is whether the reasons are largely circumstantial and the behaviour really dramatically different to other fighters in his circumstances.  I'm not making excuses for him, I'm providing reasons that just don't happen to fit with your preferred narrative.

Your primary beef seems to be with the super 6, a competition where he definitely did get an advantage but didn't make the rules. The only fight that could conceivably have taken place out of the states was the first (kessler) fight. If you're privy to the negotiations for that one, let us know. His other group fight was against another yank, the semi's and final were pre-ordained to take place in the states as part of the tournament set up.

After that he d*cked around with promotional disputes and was pretty inactive, but he did surface enough to be prepared to make it known he'd come to denmark and the uk.

So i've provided reasons, not excuses, why his super 6 fights were stateside, and examples where he at least expressed a willingness to come to europe when the dollars smelt good. You've just provided your opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/13/anthony-joshua-wladimir-klitschkodemand-neutral-officials-heavyweight/

Shame we're not getting the same for Kovalev V Ward 2 - thanks to Mr No Concessions. Kathy Duva put in a request, Ward said no.

Stop your bitching Dylan, your man lost, get over it.

As for Bute in the super 6, what good would that have done Froch mauled him the first chance he got and Bute's never been the same since (didn't he also get banned for drug use?)

although which officials are taking the Ward rematch if you don't mind posting it

Derbymanc wrote:Stop your bitching Dylan, your man lost, get over it.

As for Bute in the super 6, what good would that have done Froch mauled him the first chance he got and Bute's never been the same since (didn't he also get banned for drug use?)

although which officials are taking the Ward rematch if you don't mind posting it

In the first fight, all three American judges scored round 10 for Ward, go back and watch round 10 and please tell me how anyone can score that round for Ward. Also, all three judges scored every round for Ward 7-12, all three, only one of em scored 12 for Kovalev.

Which officials are taking the rematch - it's three American judges again, Ward would not have it any other way, despite Kathy Duva asking for three neutral judges, he said no. I'll post the names when they're released.

Do you not want to see a fair fight, one where the ref officiates properly instead of allowing the American fighter to foul 70+ times?

Dylan1979 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Stop your bitching Dylan, your man lost, get over it.

As for Bute in the super 6, what good would that have done Froch mauled him the first chance he got and Bute's never been the same since (didn't he also get banned for drug use?)

although which officials are taking the Ward rematch if you don't mind posting it

In the first fight, all three American judges scored round 10 for Ward, go back and watch round 10 and please tell me how anyone can score that round for Ward. Also, all three judges scored every round for Ward 7-12, all three, only one of em scored 12 for Kovalev.

Which officials are taking the rematch - it's three American judges again, Ward would not have it any other way, despite Kathy Duva asking for three neutral judges, he said no. I'll post the names when they're released.

Do you not want to see a fair fight, one where the ref officiates properly instead of allowing the American fighter to foul 70+ times?

Froch may have mauled Bute, don't think Ward has the same tools as Froch though. Ward is the one who said the winner of the Super 6 should fight Bute.

I disagree with you on the first fight, a very close fight that could have gone either way. The scoring reflects that the judges preferred Wards work, he's taken the rematch so instead of moaning lets see what happens with that (I had it for Ward by 1)

Until the judges have been named (and their nationality released) then shouldn't be really throwing around accusations as one it makes you look bitter as hell and 2, your gonna look a numpty if they have the 1 yank, 1 russian/ukraine or wherever Kovs the home fighter and 1 neutral. (that's the normal way of it)

TBH I always thought it was Bute that sidestepped Ward, post the links if you will so i can look into it.

And chill a bit bud ;-) we'll get to see who comes out on top soon

Derbymanc wrote:I disagree with you on the first fight, a very close fight that could have gone either way. The scoring reflects that the judges preferred Wards work, he's taken the rematch so instead of moaning lets see what happens with that (I had it for Ward by 1)

Until the judges have been named (and their nationality released) then shouldn't be really throwing around accusations as one it makes you look bitter as hell and 2, your gonna look a numpty if they have the 1 yank, 1 russian/ukraine or wherever Kovs the home fighter and 1 neutral. (that's the normal way of it)

TBH I always thought it was Bute that sidestepped Ward, post the links if you will so i can look into it.

And chill a bit bud ;-) we'll get to see who comes out on top soon

http://www.boxingscene.com/duva-request-neutral-judges-ward-kovalev-denied-by-ward--115554

We should not be giving Ward any extra credit for taking the rematch - the initial contract both fighters signed was for two fights. The terms for both fights had already been agreed when they signed, but Ward after winning decided that he would go back on the initial agreement he signed and change the terms.

As far as I'm aware the commission decides on the judges so Duva is talking nonsense.

If AJ and Wlad are both happy to request neutral, what's up with Ward?

Duva is saying that she wants to request neutral judges - Ward said no to making the request.

Nothing wrong in making the request. Why would Ward not want to request neutral judges?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:As far as I'm aware the commission decides on the judges so Duva is talking nonsense.

Duva does actually say that if you read it:

"We're in business, Nevada was the right place for the fight. It is the place where we'll do the most money on that weekend. That's the weekend we were given and all good business sense told us to go to Nevada. Their rules are that the commission selects the officials."

For this event, while a co-promotion, Roc Nation Sports is the lead promoter given that Ward was the victor in the initial match-up. According to Duva, they wanted to make a request with the Nevada State Athletic Commission - "We wanted to go to them and ask for neutral officials, that's something I asked for, but Andre Ward would have none of that,'' stated Duva, who explained that by 'neutral', any judge not from the United States or Russia.

Dylan1979 wrote:If AJ and Wlad are both happy to request neutral, what's up with Ward?

Duva is saying that she wants to request neutral judges - Ward said no to making the request.

Nothing wrong in making the request. Why would Ward not want to request neutral judges?

Ward won't entertain the fact that some people (most people) think he lost the first fight and, in his own mind, there is no need for neutral judges.

milkyboy wrote:you can deduce whatever you want to, its a free country, but i've been pretty consistent with that i've agreed with, which is largely the stating the obvious bit that he prefers to fight at home, and what i don't... which is whether the reasons are largely circumstantial and the behaviour really dramatically different to other fighters in his circumstances.  I'm not making excuses for him, I'm providing reasons that just don't happen to fit with your preferred narrative.

Your primary beef seems to be with the super 6, a competition where he definitely did get an advantage but didn't make the rules. The only fight that could conceivably have taken place out of the states was the first (kessler) fight. If you're privy to the negotiations for that one, let us know. His other group fight was against another yank, the semi's and final were pre-ordained to take place in the states as part of the tournament set up.

After that he d*cked around with promotional disputes and was pretty inactive, but he did surface enough to be prepared to make it known he'd come to denmark and the uk.

So i've provided reasons, not excuses, why his super 6 fights were stateside, and examples where he at least expressed a willingness to come to europe when the dollars smelt good. You've just provided your opinion.

Its not clear to me the argument you have been making. You say you are not arguing the point or making excuses, but go on to do that. Saying he prefers to stay at home is not the same as saying he wont travel or he makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. It not an opinion I have provided on Ward not travelling. Its the reality. He hasnt. You have provided alterntive reasons, which to me sound like excuses. Going back to the original point that was made, which was that if all fighters took Wards position then big fights wouldnt happen. This is the point that was challenged.

A Super Six tournament where only he didnt travel. After that, a match up with Dawson which took place both at his weight class and in his hometown. Dawson wanted a catchweight and Atantic City but said Ward wouldnt budge. No dount there is an alternative Ward narrative or "reason" for this, but this comes from a Dawson who has travelled all over the U.S and Canada and fought in his opponents back yard vs a Ward who hasnt. And then a spell of inactivity where he didnt fight all while he sat on his contractual demands. This is a fighter that for most of has career has never been a big commercial hit either. The evidence stacks up against him. More than just a throwaway opinion against a Ward statement that he would be open to travelling (but as yet never has).

Whether you are playing devils advocate or not, I dont know. But Im not buying the alternative reasons so we can agree to diagree. They guy is difficult, he wants it all his own way. He makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. I dont like that.

Ward is a very efficient operator. But he has all the charisma of beige paint and isn't in any way exciting to watch. I appreciate what he can do, but I never want to watch him do it.

As with any unbeaten operator I am fascinated to see if they get beaten and by who and how. With Eubank & Hamed in the 90s, a lot of people tuned in to see if they'd lose. If Ward had any sort of following his haters would do the same. However, he's so bleeping boring nobody really gives a s***.

Like I said above - a very efficient operator. And he's unbeaten so he does something right, however lucky some think him to be. But that's all there is to him. No zip. No excitement. Zero entertainment. Sorry to all that do but I just don't like the guy. And that's without getting into all the "Home fighter" arguments...

I'm pretty ambivalent towards him (in terms of his personality) but really can't stand to watch him fight. Amid all of the furore surrounding the scoring in the Kovalev fight, very little was said about how poor he looked, as this supposed master boxer. His only success came when he held with one hand and hit the body with the other, or when he got off with the odd single, snappy shot.

Mr Bounce wrote:Ward is a very efficient operator. But he has all the charisma of beige paint and isn't in any way exciting to watch. I appreciate what he can do, but I never want to watch him do it.

As with any unbeaten operator I am fascinated to see if they get beaten and by who and how. With Eubank & Hamed in the 90s, a lot of people tuned in to see if they'd lose. If Ward had any sort of following his haters would do the same. However, he's so bleeping boring nobody really gives a s***.

Like I said above - a very efficient operator. And he's unbeaten so he does something right, however lucky some think him to be. But that's all there is to him. No zip. No excitement. Zero entertainment. Sorry to all that do but I just don't like the guy. And that's without getting into all the "Home fighter" arguments...

Spot on there Bouncy, although he does have his serious haters (hiya Dyl :-)

Derbymanc wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Ward is a very efficient operator. But he has all the charisma of beige paint and isn't in any way exciting to watch. I appreciate what he can do, but I never want to watch him do it.

As with any unbeaten operator I am fascinated to see if they get beaten and by who and how. With Eubank & Hamed in the 90s, a lot of people tuned in to see if they'd lose. If Ward had any sort of following his haters would do the same. However, he's so bleeping boring nobody really gives a s***.

Like I said above - a very efficient operator. And he's unbeaten so he does something right, however lucky some think him to be. But that's all there is to him. No zip. No excitement. Zero entertainment. Sorry to all that do but I just don't like the guy. And that's without getting into all the "Home fighter" arguments...

Spot on there Bouncy, although he does have his serious haters (hiya Dyl :-)

Morning DM

If it's a crime to hate on frauds who are bad for the sport then I'm guilty - 100%

In a championship fight who typically gets the swing rounds, who typically gets the close rounds - the champion. So why is it that I've heard many say time and time again the second half was close, as many on here have said, so why is it that the champion didn't get any of the close rounds because all three judges through rounds 7-12 gave every fock*n round to Ward (bar one judge who gave 12 to Kov) - shouldn't that raise a red flag bearing in mind that the champion is usually awarded a close round but in this situation Ward was given every single inch that he could be given.

No need for neutral judges though right?

There shouldn't be a need for neutral judges no. Alas it would be better for all fights if that were the case but as mentioned above Wards got nowt to do with it, it's the commish that makes that decision (why would he argue against it though, doesn't make sense).

I don't agree with the champion being given the swing rounds either (nor the challenger has to rip the title away) if yo uthink someone else won the round then there you go. Judges though imo should have to give reasons why in close fights (especially title fights)

No red flags at all for me, Wardy won by one, rematch is (and should be) hotly anticipated and hopefully Kov will come out swinging and wipe that smirk off his face (although I think Wards too clever for him)

catchweight wrote:

milkyboy wrote:you can deduce whatever you want to, its a free country, but i've been pretty consistent with that i've agreed with, which is largely the stating the obvious bit that he prefers to fight at home, and what i don't... which is whether the reasons are largely circumstantial and the behaviour really dramatically different to other fighters in his circumstances.  I'm not making excuses for him, I'm providing reasons that just don't happen to fit with your preferred narrative.

Your primary beef seems to be with the super 6, a competition where he definitely did get an advantage but didn't make the rules. The only fight that could conceivably have taken place out of the states was the first (kessler) fight. If you're privy to the negotiations for that one, let us know. His other group fight was against another yank, the semi's and final were pre-ordained to take place in the states as part of the tournament set up.

After that he d*cked around with promotional disputes and was pretty inactive, but he did surface enough to be prepared to make it known he'd come to denmark and the uk.

So i've provided reasons, not excuses, why his super 6 fights were stateside, and examples where he at least expressed a willingness to come to europe when the dollars smelt good. You've just provided your opinion.

Its not clear to me the argument you have been making. You say you are not arguing the point or making excuses, but go on to do that. Saying he prefers to stay at home is not the same as saying he wont travel or he makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. It not an opinion I have provided on Ward not travelling. Its the reality. He hasnt. You have provided alterntive reasons, which to me sound like excuses. Going back to the original point that was made, which was that if all fighters took Wards position then big fights wouldnt happen. This is the point that was challenged.

A Super Six tournament where only he didnt travel. After that, a match up with Dawson which took place both at his weight class and in his hometown. Dawson wanted a catchweight and Atantic City but said Ward wouldnt budge. No dount there is an alternative Ward narrative or "reason" for this, but this comes from a Dawson who has travelled all over the U.S and Canada and fought in his opponents back yard vs a Ward who hasnt. And then a spell of inactivity where he didnt fight all while he sat on his contractual demands. This is a fighter that for most of has career has never been a big commercial hit either. The evidence stacks up against him. More than just a throwaway opinion against a Ward statement that he would be open to travelling (but as yet never has).

Whether you are playing devils advocate or not, I dont know. But Im not buying the alternative reasons so we can agree to diagree. They guy is difficult, he wants it all his own way. He makes his opponents do all the sacrificing. I dont like that.

Well it's never going to be clear to you if you can't or won't differentiate between an excuse and a valid reason. Your primary argument was super 6, the last 3 of his 4 fights could only happen in the states, here's froch on super 6 contracts:
http://www.boxingscene.com/froch-forget-nottingham-ill-face-johnson-atlantic-city--37767

I don't like ward for a number of reasons but i'm not playing devil's advocate... when i'm appraising fighters I try my best to remain objective.  I appreciate it's an inconvenient fact, but blaming him for fighting abraham and froch in the states is ridiculous. But you're not buying a tournament contractual reason.

Other than perhaps that first kessler fight, you haven't actually produced a legitimate example of when he reasonably should/could have left the states.

As for Dawson, here's what dawson said at the time, before he had his behind handed to him:
https://www.si.com/boxing/counter-punch/2012/09/06/dawson-says-making-168-no-problem

It doesn't sound like a guy who was bullied into it. But he makes some negative comments after he's been handily beaten.

If applying the could have volunteered to travel and wouldn't compromise on weight criteria there's a hell of a lot of fighters we're putting caveats next to. If you apply the same criteria across the board then fair enough.

He has a rep for being difficult to deal with, he likes to fight at home, neither of us like him. We can agree on that. Like you say, let's agree to disagree on whether there are legitimate examples where he should have fought abroad, and how legitimate it is to single him out.

hazharrison wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent towards him (in terms of his personality) but really can't stand to watch him fight. Amid all of the furore surrounding the scoring in the Kovalev fight, very little was said about how poor he looked, as this supposed master boxer. His only success came when he held with one hand and hit the body with the other, or when he got off with the odd single, snappy shot.

yeh, he didn't look good. I had the fight close (for kov), but ward 'won' ugly. He looks a significant step slower than he did as a super mid... age/weight/both? Who knows. I suspect, especially after round 2, he was wary of kov's power and that played a part. He did win the second half of the fight on my card, so does that show he adapted, or was it just a second wind as kov gassed a bit... or a bit of both.

A few what if's going into the rematch, tough fight to call again.

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:I'm pretty ambivalent towards him (in terms of his personality) but really can't stand to watch him fight. Amid all of the furore surrounding the scoring in the Kovalev fight, very little was said about how poor he looked, as this supposed master boxer. His only success came when he held with one hand and hit the body with the other, or when he got off with the odd single, snappy shot.

yeh, he didn't look good. I had the fight close (for kov), but ward  'won' ugly. He looks a significant step slower than he did as a super mid... age/weight/both? Who knows. I suspect, especially after round 2, he was wary of kov's power and that played a part. He did win the second half of the fight on my card, so does that show he adapted, or was it just a second wind as kov gassed a bit... or a bit of both.

A few what if's going into the rematch, tough fight to call again.

I thought Ward would walk the rematch (he couldn't box as badly again, could he?) but after watching it back to try and win a pedantic argument (I'm a masochist) I think it's Kovalev's fight to lose. He just needs to be a little more animated in the middle rounds. He obviously didn't gas, as he came on late.