Rugby World Cup 2019 Pool Draw

First topic message reminder :

The pools for the 2019 rugby world cup will be drawn on the 10th May 2017 in Kyoto. Next Wednesday.

Band 1: The four highest-ranked directly qualified teams, New Zealand (1),  England (2),  Australia (3),  Ireland (4)
Band 2: The next four highest-ranked directly qualified teams Scotland (5),  France (6),  South Africa (7),  Wales (8)
Band 3: The final four directly qualified teams Argentina (9),  Japan (11),  Georgia (12),  Italy (15)

The remaining two bands will be made up of the eight qualifying seeds, with allocation to each band being based on the previous Rugby World Cup playing strength:
Band 4:
Americas 1, Europe 1, Oceania 1, Oceania 2
Band 5:
Africa 1, Americas 2, Europe/Oceania play-off, Repechage

Not sure how soon after the draw will the venues for each pool game be confirmed but hopefully soon enough.

Final Draw:
Pool A
Ireland
Scotland
Japan
Europe 1 (Romania)
Europe2 (Russia?)/Oceania3 (Fiji/Samoa/Tonga)

Pool B
New Zealand
South Africa
Italy
Africa 1 (Namibia)
Repercharge Winner


Pool C
England
France
Argentina
Americas 1 (USA?)
Oceania 2 (Fiji/Samoa/Tonga)

Pool D
Australia
Wales
Georgia
Oceania 1 (Fiji/Samoa/Tonga)
Americas 2 (Canada)

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
What WR directive was brought in a year or two ago about summer tours?

That the NH unions should not use the summer tours as a development tool. I am sure I have not dreamed this up.

Well I won't say you dreamed it up, but there wasn't any such directive issued. As is evident from this year's June tours which will entail development squads from British and Irish teams - albeit Scotland will be pretty much at full strength in Australia, etc.

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
What WR directive was brought in a year or two ago about summer tours?

That the NH unions should not use the summer tours as a development tool. I am sure I have not dreamed this up.

Well I won't say you dreamed it up, but there wasn't any such directive issued.   As is evident from this year's June tours which will entail development squads from British and Irish teams - albeit Scotland will be pretty much at full strength in Australia, etc.

There was an agreement at WR level though. The SH unions complained that they were sending full squads up in Nov, & threatened to switch to development sides unless the NH reciprocated because below-strength side getting humped wasn't proving a big sell for crowds/broadcasters. There's an exemption in Lions year obviously.

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
What WR directive was brought in a year or two ago about summer tours?

That the NH unions should not use the summer tours as a development tool. I am sure I have not dreamed this up.

Well I won't say you dreamed it up, but there wasn't any such directive issued.   As is evident from this year's June tours which will entail development squads from British and Irish teams - albeit Scotland will be pretty much at full strength in Australia, etc.

Ah, but this rule is made exempt during a Lions tour, and WC years.

Look, I am not going to dig through archives of pages on Google to find it, but if you want to, feel free, it was even a topic of conversation on here.

P.S thanks Pete C (Kiwireddevil), I knew I wasn't going mad.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

munkian wrote:

SamTheQuin wrote:Wonder how much Eddie Jones' experience of managing in Japan will help England.

Be a great place to go and watch a World Cup.

Massively expensive mind. Not a huge drinking culture either so wouldn't be surprised if they run out of beer

Definitely pricey. Though I paid £10 for entry to 2 Top League matches

They do make really good whisky for when the beer runs out.

The Yamazaki is a fantastic whiskey, actually that's whisky seeing as they copied the Scottish, not Irish Whiskey. You got that spelling correct Pete
They also do a fair trade in Sake, hangover free alcohol if ever there was one.
I might go actually

The whiskey in Japan is great alright. They have a pretty cool drinking culture of booze and food in really atmospheric Isakayas (half bar half restaurant).

The Japanese love a drink so there will be plenty of options for a party in this RWC. I dont drink alcohol at all but have had lots of fun in Japanese Isakayas as Japanese are really friendly interesting people.

Japan is also one of the cleanest most efficient places I have ever been to. There are no bins on the streets. Everyone brings their garbage home which makes sense. The public transport is amazing. If it says the train will arrive at 10.01 it arrives at 10.01 on the button.

This will be a great RWC, can wait to go. Make sure you buy your Japan rail pass before you travel and make massive savings on trains.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well he is still a good player so there is no harm at all. There were also other young players in the squad that didn't get capped who will have benefited from the experience like Rory Scannell. There were also two new caps during the campaign and will no doubt be more in the summer tour.

Schmidt is also renowned for capping lots of new players and putting together probably the most squad depth the Ireland team has ever seen. Whats the problem?

The provinces are responsible for squad depth thats nothing to do with Schmidt. Also most of those new caps were on the tour of South Africa when we were hit by injuries and Canada.

Ireland have plenty of old players so there was always going to be plenty new caps. Also the stat of 20 new caps in the last year is a result of failing to cap those players in previous year. So basically he left it until he had to do it and that is the biggest complaint people have.

profitius wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well he is still a good player so there is no harm at all. There were also other young players in the squad that didn't get capped who will have benefited from the experience like Rory Scannell. There were also two new caps during the campaign and will no doubt be more in the summer tour.

Schmidt is also renowned for capping lots of new players and putting together probably the most squad depth the Ireland team has ever seen. Whats the problem?

The provinces are responsible for squad depth thats nothing to do with Schmidt. Also most of those new caps were on the tour of South Africa when we were hit by injuries and Canada.

Ireland have plenty of old players so there was always going to be plenty new caps. Also the stat of 20 new caps in the last year is a result of failing to cap those players in previous year. So basically he left it until he had to do it and that is the biggest complaint people have.

Schmidt arrived in Nov 2013. In a 4 year RWC cycle all the capping would normally have had to have been done already. He still built as big as squad as he could in the time afforded to him. In that period he still manged to cap above the national average new caps which amounted to 29 in that period. That is more than a full squad of new players!

Some of the arguments against Schmidt are hilarious. His detractors dont seem to have a clue what they are talking about half the time.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
What WR directive was brought in a year or two ago about summer tours?

That the NH unions should not use the summer tours as a development tool. I am sure I have not dreamed this up.

Well I won't say you dreamed it up, but there wasn't any such directive issued.   As is evident from this year's June tours which will entail development squads from British and Irish teams - albeit Scotland will be pretty much at full strength in Australia, etc.

There was an agreement at WR level though. The SH unions complained that they were sending full squads up in Nov, & threatened to switch to development sides unless the NH reciprocated because below-strength side getting humped wasn't proving a big sell for crowds/broadcasters. There's an exemption in Lions year obviously.

I think you're referring to eight or nine years ago when the 2012-2019 Tours Schedule was being drawn up by the then IRB.    The SH unions complained that they were not getting full-strength sides from the Six Nations tours and that they wanted to have three-test schedules to drive interest.  The complaint was mainly aimed at England and France (and Wales in 2007) who had toured with development sides during the noughties.   The reality was that SANZAR unions had sent development squads during November, but generally were good enough to win matches.  However, when they didn't e.g. Ireland v SA 2006, they were quick enough to say that it was only a development squad.

There was no recent directive issued by WR about development squads.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

profitius wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well he is still a good player so there is no harm at all. There were also other young players in the squad that didn't get capped who will have benefited from the experience like Rory Scannell. There were also two new caps during the campaign and will no doubt be more in the summer tour.

Schmidt is also renowned for capping lots of new players and putting together probably the most squad depth the Ireland team has ever seen. Whats the problem?

The provinces are responsible for squad depth thats nothing to do with Schmidt. Also most of those new caps were on the tour of South Africa when we were hit by injuries and Canada.

Ireland have plenty of old players so there was always going to be plenty new caps. Also the stat of 20 new caps in the last year is a result of failing to cap those players in previous year. So basically he left it until he had to do it and that is the biggest complaint people have.

Schmidt arrived in Nov 2013. In a 4 year RWC cycle all the capping would normally have had to have been done already. He still built as big as squad as he could in the time afforded to him. In that period he still manged to cap above the national average new caps which amounted to 29 in that period. That is more than a full squad of new players!

Some of the arguments against Schmidt are hilarious. His detractors dont seem to have a clue what they are talking about half the time.

But surely you should be picking players who arent as good as the best ones incase the best ones arent available in the future and you have to pick the not best ones.

Gooseberry wrote:

But surely you should be picking players who arent as good as the best ones incase the best ones arent available in the future and you have to pick the not best ones.

Yes that's what November internationals and summer tours are for. All coaches do that.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

But surely you should be picking players who arent as good as the best ones incase the best ones arent available in the future and you have to pick the not best ones.

Yes that's what November internationals and summer tours are for. All coaches do that.

And what Gatlands done with the Lions

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

munkian wrote:

SamTheQuin wrote:Wonder how much Eddie Jones' experience of managing in Japan will help England.

Be a great place to go and watch a World Cup.

Massively expensive mind. Not a huge drinking culture either so wouldn't be surprised if they run out of beer

Definitely pricey. Though I paid £10 for entry to 2 Top League matches

They do make really good whisky for when the beer runs out.

The Yamazaki is a fantastic whiskey, actually that's whisky seeing as they copied the Scottish, not Irish Whiskey. You got that spelling correct Pete
They also do a fair trade in Sake, hangover free alcohol if ever there was one.
I might go actually

The whiskey in Japan is great alright. They have a pretty cool drinking culture of booze and food in really atmospheric Isakayas (half bar half restaurant).

The Japanese love a drink so there will be plenty of options for a party in this RWC. I dont drink alcohol at all but have had lots of fun in Japanese Isakayas as Japanese are really friendly interesting people.

Japan is also one of the cleanest most efficient places I have ever been to. There are no bins on the streets. Everyone brings their garbage home which makes sense. The public transport is amazing. If it says the train will arrive at 10.01 it arrives at 10.01 on the button.

This will be a great RWC, can wait to go. Make sure you buy your Japan rail pass before you travel and make massive savings on trains.

Sounds great, never really had a reason to visit Japan, might go myself. Quite like trains, and there's have got to be better than ours!

profitius wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well he is still a good player so there is no harm at all. There were also other young players in the squad that didn't get capped who will have benefited from the experience like Rory Scannell. There were also two new caps during the campaign and will no doubt be more in the summer tour.

Schmidt is also renowned for capping lots of new players and putting together probably the most squad depth the Ireland team has ever seen. Whats the problem?

The provinces are responsible for squad depth thats nothing to do with Schmidt. Also most of those new caps were on the tour of South Africa when we were hit by injuries and Canada.

Ireland have plenty of old players so there was always going to be plenty new caps. Also the stat of 20 new caps in the last year is a result of failing to cap those players in previous year. So basically he left it until he had to do it and that is the biggest complaint people have.

Schmidt capped plenty of players before the RWC.
Introducing players because of injury takes a lot of pressure off the new cap. Unlike Kidney who heaped pressure on the new men by dropping safe options, if a player comes in because of injury he can escape the media frenzy.
Schmidt has given new caps every chance to ease into the team, and far more than either of his predecessors. His record breaking stats would indicate that he's getting it far more right than wrong, so that endorsed his approach.

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well he is still a good player so there is no harm at all. There were also other young players in the squad that didn't get capped who will have benefited from the experience like Rory Scannell. There were also two new caps during the campaign and will no doubt be more in the summer tour.

Schmidt is also renowned for capping lots of new players and putting together probably the most squad depth the Ireland team has ever seen. Whats the problem?

The provinces are responsible for squad depth thats nothing to do with Schmidt. Also most of those new caps were on the tour of South Africa when we were hit by injuries and Canada.

Ireland have plenty of old players so there was always going to be plenty new caps. Also the stat of 20 new caps in the last year is a result of failing to cap those players in previous year. So basically he left it until he had to do it and that is the biggest complaint people have.

Schmidt capped plenty of players before the RWC.
Introducing players because of injury takes a lot of pressure off the new cap. Unlike Kidney who heaped pressure on the new men by dropping safe options, if a player comes in because of injury he can escape the media frenzy.
Schmidt has given new caps every chance to ease into the team, and far more than either of his predecessors. His record breaking stats would indicate that he's getting it far more right than wrong, so that endorsed his approach.

I'm fairly sure EOS and Kidney had record breaking stats too. Under Schmidt its been fairly average since he last won the 6 nations. Don't let the odd win over NZ or England paper over the cracks.

That's the thing about records, whoever breaks it is after who previously held it.

Kidney won the (2nd) Grand Slam with O'Sullivan's team. and when the 'golden generation' retired so did his record.

Schmidt has stats that EOS could only dream of - so there is a lot more substance than the first ever win against the ABs.

I believe the considered wisdom is that to win RWCs, your first XV need roughly 600 caps - equating to 40 per player on average.
Come 2019, pretty sure England, Wales and possibly Scotland will be around that figure. Unless all the mid thirty somethings in the Ireland squad come 2019 last that long, Ireland could be some way short.
Apparently there are about twenty internationals between now and the RWC in Japan. The selection for the next round of AIs and 6N will provide a significant clue on what will happen, come the RWC.

The Great Aukster wrote:That's the thing about records, whoever breaks it is after who previously held it.

Kidney won the (2nd) Grand Slam with O'Sullivan's team. and when the 'golden generation' retired so did his record.

Schmidt has stats that EOS could only dream of - so there is a lot more substance than the first ever win against the ABs.

Schmidts stats are similar to eos. But Joe is great cos he has got us to a wc qf.

Recwatcher16 wrote:I believe the considered wisdom is that to win RWCs, your first XV need roughly 600 caps - equating to 40 per player on average.
Come 2019, pretty sure England, Wales and possibly Scotland will be around that figure. Unless all the mid thirty somethings in the Ireland squad come 2019 last that long, Ireland could be some way short.
Apparently there are about twenty internationals between now and the RWC in Japan. The selection for the next round of AIs and 6N will provide a significant clue on what will happen, come the RWC.

That's exactly my point. It isn't about capping as many new players as possible, it is the process of establishing an effective contingency plan when the spine of your team may be gone or past it by the next RWC. If you cap 60 players between now and the RWC yet don't form an established team then it is hardly a good thing.

Plus there's the simple fact that some of the old guard are just not as good as the options coming through.

Remind me when Eddie won the 6N...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:I believe the considered wisdom is that to win RWCs, your first XV need roughly 600 caps - equating to 40 per player on average.
Come 2019, pretty sure England, Wales and possibly Scotland will be around that figure. Unless all the mid thirty somethings in the Ireland squad come 2019 last that long, Ireland could be some way short.
Apparently there are about twenty internationals between now and the RWC in Japan. The selection for the next round of AIs and 6N will provide a significant clue on what will happen, come the RWC.

That's exactly my point. It isn't about capping as many new players as possible, it is the process of establishing an effective contingency plan when the spine of your team may be gone or past it by the next RWC. If you cap 60 players between now and the RWC yet don't form an established team then it is hardly a good thing.

Plus there's the simple fact that some of the old guard are just not as good as the options coming through.

If the 'options' coming through aren't starting ahead of the 'old guard' at the provinces, then Joe can hardly be blamed for not picking them?

Might I also add that I am not one of Joe's "detractors". I can acknowledge the things he does well and the things he doesn't do so well. He is a great coach, but unlike Mr. Germs, I do not have a poster of Saint Joe on my bedroom wall.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:I believe the considered wisdom is that to win RWCs, your first XV need roughly 600 caps - equating to 40 per player on average.
Come 2019, pretty sure England, Wales and possibly Scotland will be around that figure. Unless all the mid thirty somethings in the Ireland squad come 2019 last that long, Ireland could be some way short.
Apparently there are about twenty internationals between now and the RWC in Japan. The selection for the next round of AIs and 6N will provide a significant clue on what will happen, come the RWC.

That's exactly my point. It isn't about capping as many new players as possible, it is the process of establishing an effective contingency plan when the spine of your team may be gone or past it by the next RWC. If you cap 60 players between now and the RWC yet don't form an established team then it is hardly a good thing.

Plus there's the simple fact that some of the old guard are just not as good as the options coming through.

If the 'options' coming through aren't starting ahead of the 'old guard' at the provinces, then Joe can hardly be blamed for not picking them?

Because there are four provinces to choose from? It isn't just Leinster.

Anyway, why aren't we having this debate on the Irish squad thread? I'll happily move it to there.

The Great Aukster wrote:Remind me when Eddie won the 6N...

Remind me when Joe won a grand slam or beat a sh team in competition not in Ireland. I can tell you the two occasions Joe won a six nations by points difference and the times (2 or 3) eos lost a six nations by points difference. How about the coach who has got us to a wc sf.

The Great Aukster wrote:That's the thing about records, whoever breaks it is after who previously held it.

Kidney won the (2nd) Grand Slam with O'Sullivan's team. and when the 'golden generation' retired so did his record.

Schmidt has stats that EOS could only dream of - so there is a lot more substance than the first ever win against the ABs.

Well you could say it took a better coach to do it with. O'Sullivan had the side for several years, Kidney won it second pop...then declined yes.

Same for England? Bomber did little results wise with a very good team, Jones picks the same team up and doesn't lose.

Based on that who was better?
And has Eddie peaked?

He has a younger squad and better resources so he shouldn't, though Eddie has a tendency to go in cycles, hence his moving around. He's a change manager, sorts the books and stocks out, introduces little new ideas, then suffers for it.

Cheikas similar.

Ireland haven't had a coach willing to fling inexperienced players into test rugby since Gatland. Deccie took about a year to cap Mike Ross when we had no tighthead. EOS stuck to the same 15 as much as possible. That said, Schmidts policy of introducing players gradually through training seems to help them make the transition - see van der Flier, Henshaw, Ringrose.

As for Heaslips comments about 'avoiding' certain teams...what a gobshite. Maybe an insight into why he often goes missing against Wales. A pool with Ireland, France and Wales would have been great craic.

The Great Aukster wrote:That's the thing about records, whoever breaks it is after who previously held it.

Kidney won the (2nd) Grand Slam with O'Sullivan's team. and when the 'golden generation' retired so did his record.

Schmidt has stats that EOS could only dream of - so there is a lot more substance than the first ever win against the ABs.

You have to put things in context too. For instance what really destroyed EOS' record was France. At the time Ireland had a mental block* when playing France plus France were the best team in Europe, winning the 6 nations regularly under Bernard Laporte. The last minute try in the first game in Croke park cost him a grand slam. South Africa and Australia were also better than they are now, you could argue Argentina too.


It also doesn't take into account the coaching beneath the national coach. Back in EOS' day the coaching wasn't nearly advanced as it is now. The provinces are playing a more expansive brand of rugby nowadays compared to some of the rugby back in EOS' day. I remember 3-0 scorelines in games between provinces.


* Not just a mental block against the French but most teams. They did fancy their chances against Wales always and it led to an unusual period where Ireland would beat Wales in Cardiff regularly and Wales would regularly beat Ireland in Dublin.

I remember those days well and it wasn't France that stopped EOS it was EOS. He stubbornly insisted on playing BOD and POC even when carrying injuries and after they should have been subbed (remember Clerc). Asking Trimble to play with a broken finger and then slating him for a poor performance is hardly textbook player management neither was his attack on Bowe.
EOS was a control freak who didn't trust anyone he didn't have dinner with at least    ten times!

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:That's the thing about records, whoever breaks it is after who previously held it.

Kidney won the (2nd) Grand Slam with O'Sullivan's team. and when the 'golden generation' retired so did his record.

Schmidt has stats that EOS could only dream of - so there is a lot more substance than the first ever win against the ABs.

Schmidts stats are similar to eos. But Joe is great cos he has got us to a wc qf.

Eos is the Welsh word for nightingale.

I knew Wales were going to get Oceania 1.... We just can't island teams