Tour head to heads

So now that the Lions' squad is up I figured it was looking at a couple of likely (strictly my opinion) test 23s so see how NZ & the Lions match up. Here's what I came up with:

(Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will):

Position NZ vs Lions Winner
1 Moody vs McGrath Winner: McGrath Lions
2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
3 Franks vs Furlong Winner: Draw Draw
4 Retallick vs Itoje Winner: Draw Draw
5 Whitelock vs Kruis Winner: Draw Draw
6 Kaino vs Stander Winner: Draw Draw
7 Cane vs Warburton Winner: Cane NZ
8 Read vs Vunipola Winner: Read NZ
9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
10 B. Barrett vs Sexton Winner: Barrett NZ
11 J. Savea vs North Winner: Savea NZ
12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw
14 Dagg vs Williams Winner: Williams Lions
15 B. Smith vs Hogg Winner: Smith NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions
17 Crockett vs Vunipola Winner: Vunipola Lions
18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ
20 A. Savea vs Tipuric/O'Brien Winner: Savea NZ
21 A. Smith vs Webb Winner: Smith NZ
22 Cruden/Sopo'aiga vs Farrell Winner: Cruden NZ
23 J. Barrett vs Daly Winner: Barrett NZ

Coaches Hansen vs Gatland Winner: Hansen NZ

13-3 NZ with 7 too-close-to-calls

Surely it will be Milner-Skudder not Dagg on the wing. And NZ win that.

Scottrf wrote:Surely it will be Milner-Skudder not Dagg on the wing. And NZ win that.

Depends a bit on fitness & form - they're both out currently. If both are fit one would be ahead of Jordie Barrett on the bench (this year is probably a bit soon for Jr - he's going to be immense at RWC 19)

I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.

whocares wrote:I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.

There's a reason most of the British bookies are offering 10/11 on a Blackwash.

The jury is out on SBW, he's played 1 game of 15s in a year. But if Smith can re-find his 2015 form then the NZ spine is world-XV quality - Coles, Read, Smith, Barrett, Smith

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

whocares wrote:I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.

There's a reason most of the British bookies are offering 10/11 on a Blackwash.

The jury is out on SBW, he's played 1 game of 15s in a year. But if Smith can re-find his 2015 form then the NZ spine is world-XV quality - Coles, Read, Smith, Barrett, Smith

... and that's not including the best 2 locks in the world.

for the sake of cohesion on the field It would make sense that Gatland at least starts "groups" of players that know each other inside out such as Irish front row, English locks, Irish HBs (+IC) etc.

whocares wrote:for the sake of cohesion on the field It would make sense that Gatland at least starts "groups" of players that know each other inside out such as Irish front row, English locks, Irish HBs (+IC) etc.

Yeah, I sort of agree. Although saying that I wouldn't like to see Welsh 'groups' in there as I don't think as groups they're the best or complete as a group (e.g. 1 front rower in Owens) I.e. I wouldn't pick a whole Welsh back row, for example. Or back 3. But I would pick groups from other nations:

I could see a strong team coming from these groups:

Irish front row: Furlong, Best, McGrath
English second row: Kruis & Itoje
A mixed back row: Warburton, Billy V, Stander/POM
Irish half backs: Murray and Sexton
English or Irish Centres: Farrell & JJ or Henshaw & Payne
A mixed back 3: Hogg at FB (obv) and maybe either Liam Williams, Seymour, North (2 of)

like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Griff wrote:

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Ah now, that's not fair. I'd blame the ABs for any whitewash myself.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Ah now, that's not fair.  I'd blame the ABs for any whitewash myself.  

Griff wrote:

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders

R!skysports wrote:

Griff wrote:

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders

<cough> b*llocks! <cough>

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ

Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past

R!skysports wrote:

Griff wrote:

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash)

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders

I don't know how much any coach could do on a tour to NZ this year. Warrenball may keep the losing margin down. Otoh a more expansive gameplan might just win 1 test. But touring away vs a team with 7 or 8 guys who'd be in a world XV when you've got a couple of world XV grade players at best is an uphill battle however you attack it

Nz are beatable even at home. They aren't the team of 3 or 4 years ago albeit still excellent.

Cane better than Warburton... Come on man what have you been smoking

Chiefs or Cardiff Blues

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

I don't know how much any coach could do on a tour to NZ this year. Warrenball may keep the losing margin down. Otoh a more expansive gameplan might just win 1 test. But touring away vs a team with 7 or 8 guys who'd be in a world XV when you've got a couple of world XV grade players at best is an uphill battle however you attack it

Ah it's very doable though. But it will just need all-out highest aggression for two 80 minute stretches. Not allow ABs to settle into rhythm (Lions have players to handle that plan) and have a few tricky creative types to take some 5 pointers over a white line. (Lions have players to handle that plan too - both at forwards and backs)

The thing is the task is doable - if ever a combo NH squad can chance it, these recent years with England at numero 2 and virtually all sides now running on SH coaching is the time it's doable.

But will it get done? Well, over to the bookies and the idiots putting their money where their mouths are.

marty2086 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ

Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past

I'd start Farrell 12 and either Joseph or Henshaw 13 myself. Gatland is more likely to go Henshaw 12 JD2 13. With Te'o on the bench
I opted for Henshaw 12 to be comparing similar styles of 12 - 2 inside centres. Personally I think giving Sexton a 2nd playmaker would be far more effective, at times the lack of one has really cost Ireland

Owens was (narrowly) the form hooker in the 6N so I expect Gatland to start him. And George is the better bench impact option (I'll grant you Cole on the bench is wrong for the same reason). And while Best is a handy scrummager and good rucker he can't run in tries or distribute like a centre. Coles can.

Barrett actually played pretty well in Chicago. The real issue was Kaino at lock. Subbing him early to fix Hansen's blunder (OK, granted his other option was fielding 2 rookie locks) meant that we wound up with a hooker on one flank (Dane Coles ended up playing the full 80), Read at lock and Ardie Savea on the wing at the end when the injuries mounted up. That and a superb performance from Ireland - I was there.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ

Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past

I'd start Farrell 12 and either Joseph or Henshaw 13 myself. Gatland is more likely to go Henshaw 12 JD2 13. With Te'o on the bench  
I opted for Henshaw 12 to be comparing similar styles of 12 - 2 inside centres. Personally I think giving Sexton a 2nd playmaker would be far more effective, at times the lack of one has really cost Ireland

Owens was (narrowly) the form hooker in the 6N so I expect Gatland to start him. And George is the better bench impact option (I'll grant you Cole on the bench is wrong for the same reason). And while Best is a handy scrummager and good rucker he can't run in tries or distribute like a centre. Coles can.

Barrett actually played pretty well in Chicago. The real issue was Kaino at lock. Subbing him early to fix Hansen's blunder (OK, granted his other option was fielding 2 rookie locks) meant that we wound up with a hooker on one flank (Dane Coles ended up playing the full 80), Read at lock and Ardie Savea on the wing at the end when the injuries mounted up. That and a superb performance from Ireland - I was there.

I hate you and being in Chicago

I agree on Owens being in better form in the 6Ns to an extent, I think his lineout was better in other areas Best was still solid. Irelands lineout was poor until the England game and that's where Rorys weakness is, he tries to do little things to help it and sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't.

Coles ball carrying was the other stuff I was talking about, with Best its his breakdown work.

Barrett wasn't great in Chicago for me, I do he did somethings well and got lots of praise afterwards but remember thinking there were parts of his game really let him down and could cost him his place. Can't remember what those things were though, might have to rewatch the game to refresh my memory and psych me up for the summer

Barrett came off the bench and did a good job. It was not trusting him and starting Kaino at lock that stuffed the team up. (And Ireland playing marvellously of course.) it was Tuipoloto who lost his place as a result of being a bit f...ing useless.

Anyway if the ABs clean up I'd blame all the rugby unions for picking kiwi and Aussie coaches. Grow your own!

nganboy wrote:Barrett came off the bench and did a good job. It was not trusting him and starting Kaino at lock that stuffed the team up. (And Ireland playing marvellously of course.) it was Tuipoloto who lost his place as a result of being a bit f...ing useless.

Not to mention the false positive drug test for Tuipoloto too (his B sample came back negative)

Don't know/care about that it's the fact that he's lazy and doesn't cherish the ball.

Tuipoloto played the very next game but what you are saying is you don't like him and will just say whatever about him to make your point?

What on earth are you going on about? My point is I don't think he is a top player. He's got size and athleticism but I don't think he works like he should. You're right though he did play the next game. I was wrong. I was remembering the fact that Barrett took the reserve position off him once the first choice locks were back. I even think the Blues look better with the new guys locking and Tuipoloto not even on the bench. More workhorse like. Look at Fatialofa playing for the Hurricanes. He's nothing special. Couldn't get a game for the Blues. But gee he gives it his all and was very important in helping them win it last year.

I watched the tightfive NZ Tv show (don't know how credible this is in NZ) on youtube yesterday, when they were discussing the lions/NZ selection.

The main point from a Kiwi perspective, is that if they lose Reid then they are a bit light at 8 - who would be backing him up? Luatua?

Anyone under any illusions of what the Lions will be facing this summer needs to check out what the Crusaders just did to the Stormers.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Anyone under any illusions of what the Lions will be facing this summer needs to check out what the Crusaders just did to the Stormers.

We'll need the test team against Crusaders and NZ Maori for sure. And probably one of the Hurricanes or Chiefs.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:4 Retallick vs Itoje Winner: Draw Draw
5 Whitelock vs Kruis Winner: Draw Draw

Don't mean to be rude but what the heck is this draw nonsense

what an utterly pointless and entirely biased , subjective thread

You'd think Gatland had written it

Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

I think he was kidding, and it is a good thread. It was a great thread until I read that about Warburton! OP lay off the sauce .

mikey_dragon wrote:

ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

I think he was kidding, and it is a good thread. It was a great thread until I read that about Warburton! OP lay off the sauce .

Pete is a good poster. Unlike the spammer who clogs the board with his conspiracy theories. Still, it seems a free for all on the board now

ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

typical Kiwi, takes everything seriously and no concept of humor.

Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,

Gwlad wrote:

ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,

And that makes it even sadder

ebop wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,

And that makes it even sadder

Dont put yourself down.