Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

[IanBru]

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Edinburgh & Glasgow Warriors

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CHAMPIONS CUP
QUARTER FINAL
SARACENS v GLASGOW WARRIORS
Sun, Apr 2, 13:00, Allianz Park

CHALLENGE CUP
QUARTER FINAL
EDINBURGH v LA ROCHELLE
Fri, March 31, 19:00, Murrayfield Stadium


"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."

[Hazel Sapling]

If there is to be a bit of a re-balancing between Edinburgh and Glasgow there are some ideas.

Dell, Hardie, Mata, Kennedy and Scholes to Glasgow

Peterson, Blake, Pyrgos, Horne, Johnson and Hughes to Edinburgh

Why Edinburgh do it

They gain a hardworking 2nd row to replace Gilchrist, Blake becomes second choice to Watson, Pyrgos is the sort of leader Edinburgh need (and pushes SHC), Horne is a better 10 than all other options, Johnson is better than Burleigh (the present best centre) and Hughes is a big winger that Cockerill likes judging by Leicester

Dell is clear 3rd choice, Hardie has to go to keep Watson, Mata is a good 6/8 but not the starter, Kennedy is a good 9 in a fast moving system that Edinburgh don't have and Scholes has not been utilised

Why Glasgow do it

Dell competes to be the starter with Allan, Hardie is an upgrade at OS, Mata gives an offensive 6 for when Harley is out of form/not needed, Kennedy is a good 9 for the system run and Scholes has shown potential in Ulster and is an upgrade on Murchie as backup 15.

Peterson loses the numbers game at 2nd row, Blake has not been used and is replaced by a star, Pyrgos is a huge loss but supplanted by Price as a starter, Horne's role has been minimized by Thomson and Grigg playing well, Johnson will be a loss as back-up 12 but Edinburgh need someone desperately and Hughes is the 4th best winger (and Tagive has potential to replace him)

[jimbopip]

hazel, there's actually a fair bit of sense in your suggestion; which probably means the Numpties at HQ will totally ignore it.

Then again, if you look at it numerically; the MFL get 6 rugby players, the rugby team get 2, maybe two and a half rugby players.
Not sure it's worth it.

[EWT Spoons]

few points:

Kinghorn's missed tackle - As has been said he's 19, he's still learning his role and given his age you have to expect mistakes.  To think he'd be the finished article at this point in his development would be mad, if we want to give him game time we have to expect him to make the odd mistake.  I know most on here seem to feel the same, but some of the folk I was standing with at the game were berating him for it, which is out of order.

Dean - I actually have no issue with Chris Dean.  At 12 he's shown he can be a very capable player...ok maybe not very capable, but can do a job and if you were playing outside Duncan (how is he still a pro) Weir then you are guaranteed to look bad.  I'm not sure on 13 for him as I don't think he is fast enough or creative enough, but he is a fairly solid 12.  I also think judging him on this season might be harsh as it's the most games he's played and Hodge is coaching him, and so far everyone looks substandard.

Hastings - This might be controversial, but I don't want him at Edinburgh.  We are a team devoid of confidence or a recognised game plan, to bring him into this would be akin to child abuse.  Let him go to Glasgow where he'll develop under less pressure in an environment where he won't be expected to have a miracle performance each week to bail the team out.  Yes I would like him to come to Edinburgh from a selfish (we need someone) point of view, but let's not destroy the poor lad before he's even got going.

Weir - I've said this many many times, but he's just not good enough.  He does nothing particularly well, or at least not well enough to offset the rest of his game.  He's like a poor man's Dan Parks, but without the kicking, which makes sense as this is the player he learned from.  Edinburgh need an experienced 10 to help control the game, we have Tovey who had a brief spike in form when he joined us, but we've ground that out of him and Weir, neither of whom inspire confidence.  I like Hazel's idea of Horne as he's probably the best we could get, but I fear it'll not be seen by the player or fans as a positive move, as he'll feel like he is being shifted down the M8 because he's not good enough and Edinburgh fans will feel the same.

In terms of Hazel's post to rebalancing the squads there are a lot of merit in the suggestion, I just don't know if it's feasible.  But I'd like to think Dodson/Johnson would sit down with Rennie and Cockerill in the summer and work something out in terms of trades/squad balance, but I can't actually see it happening.

[EST]

If there is to be a bit of a re-balancing between Edinburgh and Glasgow there are some ideas.

Dell, Hardie, Mata, Kennedy and Scholes to Glasgow

Peterson, Blake, Pyrgos, Horne, Johnson and Hughes to Edinburgh

Why Edinburgh do it

They gain a hardworking 2nd row to replace Gilchrist, Blake becomes second choice to Watson, Pyrgos is the sort of leader Edinburgh need (and pushes SHC), Horne is a better 10 than all other options, Johnson is better than Burleigh (the present best centre) and Hughes is a big winger that Cockerill likes judging by Leicester

Dell is clear 3rd choice, Hardie has to go to keep Watson, Mata is a good 6/8 but not the starter, Kennedy is a good 9 in a fast moving system that Edinburgh don't have and Scholes has not been utilised

Why Glasgow do it

Dell competes to be the starter with Allan, Hardie is an upgrade at OS, Mata gives an offensive 6 for when Harley is out of form/not needed, Kennedy is a good 9 for the system run and Scholes has shown potential in Ulster and is an upgrade on Murchie as backup 15.

Peterson loses the numbers game at 2nd row, Blake has not been used and is replaced by a star, Pyrgos is a huge loss but supplanted by Price as a starter, Horne's role has been minimized by Thomson and Grigg playing well, Johnson will be a loss as back-up 12 but Edinburgh need someone desperately and Hughes is the 4th best winger (and Tagive has potential to replace him)

These are really good suggestions, but I'm not sure if swapping players between the two clubs en masse helps.  How happy would Pyrgos be to be told he was leaving Glasgow, and how would that motivate him to play well? I think Edinburgh need to build an identity as a club, like Glasgow did when Harley, Dunbar, Hogg, Pyrgos etc all broke into the first team at the same stage, with the help of the ruck inspector and a few others.

Yes, there will always be one or two players heading in either direction, but I think the clubs need more autonomy, and not less.

[BigGee]

Players have moved between the clubs and will continue to do so, but a mass re-organisation every summer is not a good idea and would help neither club.

[EWT Spoons]

I totally agree every summer would be a mistake, but I think there is an opportunity here with both teams getting new coaches. It could be seen as a new dawn for both clubs and an opportunity to make them both stronger.

It's not going to happen, as I doubt the SRU would risk it, but there is an element of sense in having a one time alignment of resources so weaknesses in both teams are addressed.

[IanBru]

Didn't Kennedy move from Edinburgh to Glasgow and then back to Edinburgh already? Another move for the guy starts to make the SRU look indecisive...

[EWT Spoons]

Didn't Kennedy move from Edinburgh to Glasgow and then back to Edinburgh already? Another move for the guy starts to make the SRU look indecisive...

Kennedy went on loan to Glasgow, so was only a short term thing. But yeah if he keeps moving back and forward it might look odd.

[funnyExiledScot]

For any exchange to receive the fES seal of approval, Weir must be sent back. End of.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I would personally put both squads together and have a draft, similar to whats done in sport in the US.

Who ever gets 1st choice full back, then gets first choice winger, and so on and so forth.

Chuck all the names in the hat and then start picking. There is too much disparity between Glasgow and Edinburgh and with Glasgow continuing to get big name signings and Edinburgh getting Duncan Weir..... there is no evidnce that the situation will be remedied.

[funnyExiledScot]

I would personally put both squads together and have a draft, similar to whats done in sport in the US.

Who ever gets 1st choice full back, then gets first choice winger, and so on and so forth.

Chuck all the names in the hat and then start picking. There is too much disparity between Glasgow and Edinburgh and with Glasgow continuing to get big name signings and Edinburgh getting Duncan Weir..... there is no evidnce that the situation will be remedied.

I can hear the tins of Special Brew dropping to the floor from here. The Weegies would never allow it!

[BigGee]

It may just be that Glasgow get big name signings because they are a successful team and players are attracted to come and play for them.

Remember it was not always this way, not that long ago that their was a perceived bias towards Edinburgh.

Glasgow became a good side without making any star signings. It was about hard graft and a fantastic team ethos. Edinburgh need to earn the right to attract decent players to come to them.

[funnyExiledScot]

It may just be that Glasgow get big name signings because they are a successful team and players are attracted to come and play for them.

Remember it was not always this way, not that long ago that their was a perceived bias towards Edinburgh.

Glasgow became a good side without making any star signings. It was about hard graft and a fantastic team ethos. Edinburgh need to earn the right to attract decent players to come to them.

What has also happened is that Glasgow have been allowed to keep the lion's share of the additional profits from their success (i.e. prize money etc.) which has allowed the Glasgow budget to grow.

To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with that. Edinburgh need to look at the job Lineen did at Glasgow and seek to emulate it. It's a fact that Glasgow is getting far more from its players than Edinburgh.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It may just be that Glasgow get big name signings because they are a successful team and players are attracted to come and play for them.

Remember it was not always this way, not that long ago that their was a perceived bias towards Edinburgh.

Glasgow became a good side without making any star signings. It was about hard graft and a fantastic team ethos. Edinburgh need to earn the right to attract decent players to come to them.

How can we do that when Weir gets dumped on us whilst Glasgow sign future stars? The disparity at the moment is collosal and will only get bigger. Cockerill will have a devestating pack at his disposal once he gets his feet under the table at Edinburgh but we need someone at 10 who can energize our backline.

Weir making the move to Edinburgh was a terible decision for him and Edinburgh. If Scotland want to devlop him he should have gone off down south like Jackson. Sending him to edinburgh to pile misery on his already shaken confidence doesn't help him or us.

I have no idea how anyone convinced Nel to stay.

[IanBru]

Worth saying also that none of DTH, Seymour, Nakarawa, Matawalu, Pyrgos or Stortoni were exactly household names when they signed for Glasgow - they became strong players here.

To a certain extent, the 'imbalance' lies in the contrasting abilities of the two systems to generate quality in the non-stars that they sign.

[EST]

I'd also add that it's not as if Edinburgh haven't been allowed to sign good players:

Hardie
Bressler
CDP
Manu
Nel
Mata (Doesn't have the pedigree of those above, but looks great)

Yes there has been a lot of dross during that time, but I would argue it's the successive appointment of terrible coaches which is the real failing at Edinburgh.

[BigGee]

Manu is apparently off to Treviso next season.

It will be just Edinburgh's luck if he stays fit and plays a big part in their revival!

[Hazel Sapling]

There is a contrast in playing styles and a gulf in coaching ability that has now cost Glasgow the chance at top 4 (part of what I was thinking with 5/6 players swapping is to smooth out the cost of the Scotland call-ups). Edinburgh need new leadership and guys like Ford have not answered the call.

Cockerill will not be the salve to fix all ills. I would like to see Edinburgh rebuild with a powerful pack that can offload, a good kicking game for position and solid defense in the centres. They have the personnel to do the first 2 quickly and the 3rd needs a good defense coach (Burleigh, Dean, Bennett, Tofilau are all natural attackers). Part of the reason for such a transfusion is to give him a core of players who are used to winning and will demand it of themselves.

Anyway it is not going to happen. Practically Cockers first goal is to make the whole equal to the sum of its parts. Guys like CDP, SHC, Ritchie, Bradbury, Weir and Kinghorn have had too long a stretch with poor form. Hopefully he rejuvenates them.

[Hazel Sapling]

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/bennett-has-major-knee-surgery/

F**k

[BigGee]

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/bennett-has-major-knee-surgery/

F**k

Injuries are in danger of ruining Mark Bennett's career, he really has had no luck at all.

[funnyExiledScot]

Great. That's Edinburgh's marquee signing for next year scuppered for....next year.

Wishing him a swift recovery, and I hope it's a full one so he can get back to his best.

[R!skysports]

It may just be that Glasgow get big name signings because they are a successful team and players are attracted to come and play for them.

Remember it was not always this way, not that long ago that their was a perceived bias towards Edinburgh.

Glasgow became a good side without making any star signings. It was about hard graft and a fantastic team ethos. Edinburgh need to earn the right to attract decent players to come to them.

How can we do that when Weir gets dumped on us whilst Glasgow sign future stars? The disparity at the moment is collosal and will only get bigger. Cockerill will have a devestating pack at his disposal once he gets his feet under the table at Edinburgh but we need someone at 10 who can energize our backline.

Weir making the move to Edinburgh was a terible decision for him and Edinburgh. If Scotland want to devlop him he should have gone off down south like Jackson. Sending him to edinburgh to pile misery on his already shaken confidence doesn't help him or us.

I have no idea how anyone convinced Nel to stay.

I seem to remember us doing quite well, even with Weir on the books at Glasgow.

There really is no point getting big names to Edinburgh just now, until they sort out their heads. They look like they are not trying and putting little effort in.

Sending good players there at the moment, is really just killing a players career - as they go downhill like the social class between FES and his butler

However, I think Cockrill, will be a great signing to develop a proper work ethos and hopefully your good players will start to play with passion and you can discard you rubbish ones (But not to us)

[EST]

That's a real shame for both Bennett and Edinburgh - is that not his second knee reconstruction?

For a player who relies on pace and stepping, this is really not a good sign.

[funnyExiledScot]

That's a real shame for both Bennett and Edinburgh - is that not his second knee reconstruction?

For a player who relies on pace and stepping, this is really not a good sign.

If he loses his pace and ability to step, he'll be the new Chris Dean.

[BigGee]

Edinburgh sign Ally Millar on a 2 year deal.

He has had a very good season down with London Scottish this season and is now away with the sevens.

Probably not big enough to play No 8, but will make a decent blind side. Last years crop of U20s really were a vintage bunch, a lot of them have made the step up.

[EST]

That's a real shame for both Bennett and Edinburgh - is that not his second knee reconstruction?

For a player who relies on pace and stepping, this is really not a good sign.

If he loses his pace and ability to step, he'll be the new Chris Dean.

I'd argue a one-legged Bennett still has a better step than Dean.

The Weir/Dean combo ,I'm struggling to think of a midfield axis with less creativity.

[funnyExiledScot]

Edinburgh sign Ally Millar on a 2 year deal.

He has had a very good season down with London Scottish this season and is now away with the sevens.

Probably not big enough to play No 8, but will make a decent blind side. Last years crop of U20s really were a vintage bunch, a lot of them have made the step up.

Happy with that. The young guns like Bradbury, Ritchie and Millar are the future, and the type of players Edinburgh can build things around.

Here's a shout for the Edinburgh captaincy next season: Hamish Watson.

[funnyExiledScot]

That's a real shame for both Bennett and Edinburgh - is that not his second knee reconstruction?

For a player who relies on pace and stepping, this is really not a good sign.

If he loses his pace and ability to step, he'll be the new Chris Dean.

I'd argue a one-legged Bennett still has a better step than Dean.

The Weir/Dean combo ,I'm struggling to think of a midfield axis with less creativity.

Parks/Morrison. Case closed.

[EST]

That's a real shame for both Bennett and Edinburgh - is that not his second knee reconstruction?

For a player who relies on pace and stepping, this is really not a good sign.

If he loses his pace and ability to step, he'll be the new Chris Dean.

I'd argue a one-legged Bennett still has a better step than Dean.

The Weir/Dean combo ,I'm struggling to think of a midfield axis with less creativity.

Parks/Morrison. Case closed.

Those are the two I had in mind.....at least Parks could kick.

[tigertattie]

have you guys ever seen Morrison side step or Andy Henderson throwing a dummy?

[funnyExiledScot]

have you guys ever seen Morrison side step or Andy Henderson throwing a dummy?

No, but they should have done. The opposition would never have expected it.

[jimbopip]

So, one transfer fact and one rumour.


Manu to Treviso.

Gorgodzii to Glasgow.

This answers two questions: after the MFL where can you go to improve your rugby, and after Toulon where can you go for a better atmosphere at big matches?

[funnyExiledScot]

Shame to lose Manu, but CDP is more important and Bradbury is ready to be his deputy, plus we just signed Millar.

Gorgodze would be a magnificent signing for Glasgow, but I can't see it happening. He will presumably have his pick of clubs to join.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Shame to lose Manu, but CDP is more important and Bradbury is ready to be his deputy, plus we just signed Millar.

Gorgodze would be a magnificent signing for Glasgow, but I can't see it happening. He will presumably have his pick of clubs to join.

If Gorgodze signs for Glasgow I will be FES's butler's butler for the rest of the season.

[IanBru]

Shame to lose Manu, but CDP is more important and Bradbury is ready to be his deputy, plus we just signed Millar.

Gorgodze would be a magnificent signing for Glasgow, but I can't see it happening. He will presumably have his pick of clubs to join.

If Gorgodze signs for Glasgow I will be FES's butler's butler for the rest of the season.

If I still had my stones, I'd warn you against silly wagers, but I don't so I won't.

[funnyExiledScot]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

[tigertattie]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

Won't Wilson be playing at 8 next year? Maybe a few stints at 6?

Gorgodze is a 7 which he just doesn't look like! but that's where he plays!

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

Won't Wilson be playing at 8 next year? Maybe a few stints at 6?

Gorgodze is a 7 which he just doesn't look like! but that's where he plays!

France play their blindside at 7 mind

[funnyExiledScot]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

Won't Wilson be playing at 8 next year? Maybe a few stints at 6?

Gorgodze is a 7 which he just doesn't look like! but that's where he plays!

France play their blindside at 7 mind

Indeed, and Georgia frequently use him at 8. But Tattie knew that....

[George Carlin]

I had a vasectomy today.

I'm just going to put that out there.

Although unlike young Bru, I still have my stones, albeit with a greatly reduced functionality than that with which they were blessed this morning.

[jimbopip]

I know how you feel.

[Hazel Sapling]

The definition of a tough man

Going for a 100m sprint after a vasectomy

[George Carlin]

The definition of a tough man

Going for a 100m sprint after a vasectomy

I did that. And beat Maro Itoje in the photo finish.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I had a vasectomy today.

I'm just going to put that out there.

Although unlike young Bru, I still have my stones, albeit with a greatly reduced functionality than that with which they were blessed this morning.

was it as sore as I'd think it would be?

[funnyExiledScot]

I had a vasectomy today.

I'm just going to put that out there.

Although unlike young Bru, I still have my stones, albeit with a greatly reduced functionality than that with which they were blessed this morning.

I'll be joining that club if we have another. In fact, having spent a good while this morning cleaning ToddlerfES' porridge off my trousers, I'm wondering whether I might just book myself in now.

[tigertattie]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

Won't Wilson be playing at 8 next year? Maybe a few stints at 6?

Gorgodze is a 7 which he just doesn't look like! but that's where he plays!

France play their blindside at 7 mind

Indeed, and Georgia frequently use him at 8. But Tattie knew that....

He plays at 7 for Georgia too though! Do they follow the willy French and Saffa way of doing things too?

[funnyExiledScot]

Gorgodze or Wilson? Gorgodze or Wilson? Tough choice that would be for Rennie....

Won't Wilson be playing at 8 next year? Maybe a few stints at 6?

Gorgodze is a 7 which he just doesn't look like! but that's where he plays!

France play their blindside at 7 mind

Indeed, and Georgia frequently use him at 8. But Tattie knew that....

He plays at 7 for Georgia too though! Do they follow the willy French and Saffa way of doing things too?

He's played across the whole back row for Georgia. He's a bit like Ali Hogg or Ryan Wilson, only much much better.

[tigertattie]

ah come on now! Ally Hogg was/is much better than Ryan Wilson!

[funnyExiledScot]

Ali Hogg could have been much better than Ryan Wilson, but Wilson is nothing if not determined and he works his socks off to maximise his abilities. Hogg burst through with massive potential, but never truly lived up to it.

Hogg has 48 Scotland caps and Wilson has 27. My hunch is that Wilson will ultimately end up with more caps, not because he has more talent, but because he seems to want them more.

[funnyExiledScot]

Here's something I didn't know about Ryan Wilson: he's a posh boy. He was born in England and went to Lord Wandsworth College in Hampshire, the same school as Jonny Wilkinson.

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