Scotland Autumn series post mortem and 6N look ahead

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Results


Scotland 22 Australia 23

Scotland 19 Argentina 16

Scotland 43 Georgia 16

I think the Scotsman summed up our Autumn Series pretty well:

Scotsman wrote:Two wins, one desperately narrow loss that could have ended differently, ten tries, two ranking places gained and all of the above completed with the absence of a host of players who have proved crucial for Scotland in the past, including the two best props in the country. All in, there was much to admire about Scotland’s autumn series

6N fixtures

Scotland V Ireland
France V Scotland

Scotland V Wales

England V Scotand
Scotland V Italy

Hazel Sapling wrote:Taylor did play 20 minutes against Exeter. Bosch came on for the injured 13 (can't remember who it was) after 20 minutes. He was taken off in a tactical sub for Taylor at the hour mark. Fair to say Taylor is still getting back into the groove that they could not trust him to play an hour.

I think Taylor went off with a head knock and did not come back on. When a sub gets subbed, it all gets a bit confusing.

Unlikely he will be fully match fit for the start of the 6N, but hopefully he could come into play during the tournament.

Squad gets announced on Wednesday apparently. Are we expecting any surprises?

Duncan Taylor seems to be almost fit now, but is coming in with no game time worth talking about.

Not sure where Huw Jones is at, but surely he will be in the squad if anything like fit. Matt Scott is surely going to be very very unlucky to miss out again this time though.

I wonder if we will see Josh Bassett the Wasps winger get a call this time, his name has been mooted previously as he was born in Edinburgh, so you would imagine there may have been some contact with him. He is holding down a starting spot in the stellar Wasps back line, which tells you something about him and he has played well whenever I have seen him this season. I would put him behind Maitland and Seymour just now but maybe a better all round player than Visser, he can score tries and defend. Hoyland seems to have faded a little bit this season, which you can unfortunately put down to playing for Edinburgh.

The one Edinburgh back who may get the call, probably for the experience, would likely be Kinghorn, who has looked decent in a poor Edinburgh side all season.

The forwards squad will largely pick itself and I don't see to many changes from the autumn other than Bradbury being there on his own right now. The enigma though is Gilchrist, who does not even seem to be playing well enough to get picked for Edinburgh. Does VC still have a love in with him?

To me Swinson, who has played well all season, is easily our third choice lock just now. Toolis and/or McKenzie probably deserve the squad place more than GG.

Anyway, all in all, is likely to be a fairly settle squad announcement, maybe just one or two bolters.

Agreed Gee, locks would be Gray&Gray with Swinson as back up with Toolis is fouth choice. Gilchrist doesn't seem to bring anything to the party that the others don't have lots more of.
Dunbar, Bennett deffo in with two from Jones, Taylor and Scott. If the first two are fit then Scott's defence will go against him.

Lets hope this 6Nations we can shift that reputation

Morrison in the Scotsman, in a fairly useless review of the squad today told us nothing we did not know other than he does think that Huw Jones is fit.

On current form it might be Mark Bennett that misses out, he is still not really showing his best form, certainly did not yesterday wheras Matt Scott ran a couple more in, albeit against Treviso in a park somewhere in Northern Italy with one man and his dog watching!

Did Nel get concussion yesterday?

MacKnocked-on wrote:Did Nel get concussion yesterday?

He went off for a HIA and never came back on, whilst nothing i have seen has confirmed either way, but I assume so.

Yeah he stayed off and the reports said he looked clearly concussed.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah he stayed off and the reports said he looked clearly concussed.

Is that an auto 2 week rest period then? Running the risk of being seriously undercooked for the 6ns

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah he stayed off and the reports said he looked clearly concussed.

Is that an auto 2 week rest period then? Running the risk of being seriously undercooked for the 6ns

There are no automatic rest periods any more - he will have to go through the return to play protocols which take 6 days, so technically he does have enough time to pass it in time for play on Friday.

Saying that, given that he was apparently clearly concussed I'd say he's not going to be fit for Friday and may even miss the start of the 6N.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah he stayed off and the reports said he looked clearly concussed.

Is that an auto 2 week rest period then? Running the risk of being seriously undercooked for the 6ns

There are no automatic rest periods any more - he will have to go through the return to play protocols which take 6 days, so technically he does have enough time to pass it in time for play on Friday.

Saying that, given that he was apparently clearly concussed I'd say he's not going to be fit for Friday and may even miss the start of the 6N.

This is not good, terribly bad luck for him and Scotland if he's forced out for a few weeks just when he's back to fitness. I think Nel is possibly the most important player for Scotland currently so we really have to hope he's fit & healthy ASAP. In terms of possible squad replacements if he's out for the first game or so, has Berghan done enough in recent weeks to make the Scotland squad as one of the options behind Fagerson? With Low out of form and Welsh seemingly out of favour it's hard to think of anyone else.

Berghan has actually done OK since returning - generally holding his own in the scrums.

It is still very early days though given how little he's actually played over the last few years and I think it is far too early to be throwing him in to the 6N. If he continues getting gametime for Edinburgh (which he should do through the 6N) then he's maybe worth taking on the summer tour.

Surely Jon Welsh is going to be the third TH in the squad. He has been playing well for a Newcastle team on the up.

Neither Berghan nor Rae are ready yet, though they are both progressing nicely and Low is well past it.

The Glasgow front row did very well against a strong Munster scrum on Saturday. Luckily Fargerson seems to be continuously improving. If Nel starts on the bench or runs out of gas early, that may not be the end of the world any more.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Berghan has actually done OK since returning - generally holding his own in the scrums.

It is still very early days though given how little he's actually played over the last few years and I think it is far too early to be throwing him in to the 6N.  If he continues getting gametime for Edinburgh (which he should do through the 6N) then he's maybe worth taking on the summer tour.

I'm just wondering, if Nel is forced to sit out a game, who Cotter will choose as the extra prop given how poor Low has been and Welsh seemingly not in favour? Given how few options there are, I can't really think of anyone else. Obviously we don't know how players will cope when given the chance, Dell was nowhere before injuries to others got him in to the autumn matches and now he looks the probable first choice for the 6Ns. Very tough, let's hope Nel is OK.

I think the tighthead pecking order is Nel, Fagerson and Welsh. If Nel is out, I'd expect Fagerson to start with Welsh on the bench.

Dell is a loosehead. The pecking order there is less clear. I'd have Dickinson at number one if fit, but he's rarely fit these days. Dell may well now be second choice, he's having a great season. Behind that it's a call between Sutherland and Reid, with little between them. Sutherland has been injured this season so I suspect Reid will have a role to play this 6 Nations.

Low and Grant are not good enough for my money, and I'm yet to be convinced by Berghan.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the tighthead pecking order is Nel, Fagerson and Welsh. If Nel is out, I'd expect Fagerson to start with Welsh on the bench.

Dell is a loosehead. The pecking order there is less clear. I'd have Dickinson at number one if fit, but he's rarely fit these days. Dell may well now be second choice, he's having a great season. Behind that it's a call between Sutherland and Reid, with little between them. Sutherland has been injured this season so I suspect Reid will have a role to play this 6 Nations.

Low and Grant are not good enough for my money, and I'm yet to be convinced by Berghan.

If all were fit I'd have the Loosehead pecking order as

Dickinson
Sutherland
Dell
Reid
Allan
Grant

Dell did well in the AIs but Sutherland has looked very comfortable at international level and I'd have Sutherland as first reserve - he will have a fight on his hands from Dell when he regains fitness though. Sutherland strikes me as being much more robust and is a more solid carrying option - Dell is on the lightweight side (but that makes him good in the loose).

Reid puts his all into every game he plays but I don't think he can be classed as more than a backup option, albeit not a bad backup to have for a 4th choice looshead.

God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

George Carlin wrote:God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

Not sure that's strictly true, given we have 3 very good LHs (Dickinson, Sutherland & Dell) who have proven themselves capable to play at international level.

Hooker - Ford & Brown are decent options

TH - Nel & Fagerson are probably 1 & 2, then we have Berghan, Welsh etc who are probably just back ups.

Sure we're not blessed with huge amounts of depth, but i wouldn't say we were paper thin in the front row.

George Carlin wrote:God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

Agreed. I'd probably put Brown ahead in fact, albeit Ford seems to make the scrum function better.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

Agreed. I'd probably put Brown ahead in fact, albeit Ford seems to make the scrum function better.

Brown may well be the better impact player as well, who can really bring on some energy at 60 mins. He will usurp Fordie one day soon, but interestingly he did seem to rise to the challenge (having had no competition for years) in the autumn and had some of his best games for Scotland in recent memory.

The front row generally is as robust as it has been in years!

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

Agreed. I'd probably put Brown ahead in fact, albeit Ford seems to make the scrum function better.

Brown may well be the better impact player as well, who can really bring on some energy at 60 mins. He will usurp Fordie one day soon, but interestingly he did seem to rise to the challenge (having had no competition for years) in the autumn and had some of his best games for Scotland in recent memory.

The front row generally is as robust as it has been in years!

This is certainly true. Those of us old enough to remember the front rows of the late 90s/early 2000s will remember some truly shocking players.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:God, we really do struggle in the front row, don't we?

Paper thin behind the starters. At least Fraser Brown is every bit as good if not better than Ford.

Agreed. I'd probably put Brown ahead in fact, albeit Ford seems to make the scrum function better.

Brown may well be the better impact player as well, who can really bring on some energy at 60 mins. He will usurp Fordie one day soon, but interestingly he did seem to rise to the challenge (having had no competition for years) in the autumn and had some of his best games for Scotland in recent memory.

The front row generally is as robust as it has been in years!

This is certainly true. Those of us old enough to remember the front rows of the late 90s/early 2000s will remember some truly shocking players.

Gavin Kerr?
Bruce Douglas?
Craig Smith?
Mattie Stewart?
Kyle Traynor?

That sort of thing. Barrie Stewart, Gordon McIllwham and Matt Proudfoot can also go on that list.

I would add George Graham in terms of his scrummaging, he was far too small, but he was a hard worker in the loose.

The depth is not bad at all. Welsh is an average international level tighthead and there are not many 3rd choices who are that good. McInally is 3rd choice at hooker for the moment and the loosehead depth is about 5 deep at present who can at least not look out of their depth too often.

Shiels should pass Grant on that list at some point as well. If Reid goes, I would like to bring him back from LS. He can play behind Allan and compete for the number 2 spot with Djustice.

Hazel Sapling wrote:The depth is not bad at all. Welsh is an average international level tighthead and there are not many 3rd choices who are that good. McInally is 3rd choice at hooker for the moment and the loosehead depth is about 5 deep at present who can at least not look out of their depth too often.

Shiels should pass Grant on that list at some point as well. If Reid goes, I would like to bring him back from LS. He can play behind Allan and compete for the number 2 spot with Djustice.

Hard to know just what kind of international player JW is, as he has never really had much of a chance. He was just breaking through as a LH when he picked up a bad injury and then when he came back was re-invented as a TH and never really got any game time.

He is certainly anchoring down the Newcastle scrum at the moment and showing a nifty line in clean breaks which was never there before. It was supposedly his work around the park that was holding him back. I think he has earned his chance now and we may well see him some time during the 6N.

A word for Kyle Traynor as well, who we all thought would fade into obscurity once he left Edinburgh. He is still pretty much the starting LH at Bristol despite all the comings and goings there over the past few seasons. I am not expecting to see him in a Scotland shirt again, but he has made a pretty decent career for himself and again shows the virtue of making a move and challenging yourself sometimes.

I never quite understood why JW moved over to tighthead - I suppose Grant was playing well at that time and Reid was coming through. Either way, it looks like a good move that could progress his international career now.

Glasgow had a brilliant scrum for one season around that time. Grant or Welsh/Hall/Cusak. Big Mike was a scrum beast.

Those were the days. Big Mike would eat opposition LHs for breakfast.

Then the scrum laws change and Grant and Cussack were never the same players again. He could never get himself fit again either. He was a fairly un-reconstructed prop of the Alan Jacobsen school and sadly it looks like their time has gone.

Halcyon days though, very good memories!

I used to love watching Mike Cusack scrum. An absolute beast in his heyday. Pretty sure he made Ryan Grant look a lot better than he actually was.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I used to love watching Mike Cusack scrum. An absolute beast in his heyday. Pretty sure he made Ryan Grant look a lot better than he actually was.

You are being a bit unfair on Ryan Grant, he had an absolutely stellar season that year he went with the Lions, he was there on merit, no doubt about it. No one but Gatland knows why he did not get capped when he preferred to keep Mako Vinapulo on for the whole game, despite him hardly being able to draw breath for the last 15 mins.

That experience, plus the change in the engagement rules, followed by the kebab shop incident had a terrible effect on him and he never seems to have been the same player since.

I am sure there is still a half decent player in there somewhere, but he really does need a move and the chance to re=motivate himself. He should probably have moved sooner truth be told but his decent contract and injuries have stopped that happening.

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I used to love watching Mike Cusack scrum. An absolute beast in his heyday. Pretty sure he made Ryan Grant look a lot better than he actually was.

You are being a bit unfair on Ryan Grant, he had an absolutely stellar season that year he went with the Lions, he was there on merit, no doubt about it. No one but Gatland knows why he did not get capped when he preferred to keep Mako Vinapulo on for the whole game, despite him hardly being able to draw breath for the last 15 mins.

That experience, plus the change in the engagement rules, followed by the kebab shop incident had a terrible effect on him and he never seems to have been the same player since.

I am sure there is still a half decent player in there somewhere, but he really does need a move and the chance to re=motivate himself. He should probably have moved sooner truth be told but his decent contract and injuries have stopped that happening.

More than decent - he was reportedly the highest paid player in Scotland when he signed that!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I used to love watching Mike Cusack scrum. An absolute beast in his heyday. Pretty sure he made Ryan Grant look a lot better than he actually was.

You are being a bit unfair on Ryan Grant, he had an absolutely stellar season that year he went with the Lions, he was there on merit, no doubt about it. No one but Gatland knows why he did not get capped when he preferred to keep Mako Vinapulo on for the whole game, despite him hardly being able to draw breath for the last 15 mins.

That experience, plus the change in the engagement rules, followed by the kebab shop incident had a terrible effect on him and he never seems to have been the same player since.

I am sure there is still a half decent player in there somewhere, but he really does need a move and the chance to re=motivate himself. He should probably have moved sooner truth be told but his decent contract and injuries have stopped that happening.

More than decent - he was reportedly the highest paid player in Scotland when he signed that!

Hard to argue that he was not worth it then. We were not exactly overflowing with high quality internationals at that stage. It makes it more of a shame that it all worked out so badly.

Does anyone know when next years 6 nation fixtures are announced?

Or have I missed them?

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I used to love watching Mike Cusack scrum. An absolute beast in his heyday. Pretty sure he made Ryan Grant look a lot better than he actually was.

You are being a bit unfair on Ryan Grant, he had an absolutely stellar season that year he went with the Lions, he was there on merit, no doubt about it. No one but Gatland knows why he did not get capped when he preferred to keep Mako Vinapulo on for the whole game, despite him hardly being able to draw breath for the last 15 mins.

That experience, plus the change in the engagement rules, followed by the kebab shop incident had a terrible effect on him and he never seems to have been the same player since.

I am sure there is still a half decent player in there somewhere, but he really does need a move and the chance to re=motivate himself. He should probably have moved sooner truth be told but his decent contract and injuries have stopped that happening.

More than decent - he was reportedly the highest paid player in Scotland when he signed that!

Hard to argue that he was not worth it then. We were not exactly overflowing with high quality internationals at that stage. It makes it more of a shame that it all worked out so badly.

Agreed, I was being a tad harsh. I just find it difficult to comprehend the speed of his decline, although he's not the only loosehead to have dropped off under the new rules (Thomas Domingo is another that springs to mind).

Packing down with Mike Cusack must have been fun though, although the lack of power coming from a certain Al "too busy being a leader to push" Kellock in the boiler room probably offset the efforts of Big Mike.

So what's the general feeling from Scottish fans going into this year's 6 nations?

How do you think you'll do this year?

beshocked wrote:So what's the general feeling from Scottish fans going into this year's 6 nations?

How do you think you'll do this year?

1. Depression, mild nausea, difficulty peeing. 
2. Badly. Although we are of course Dark Horses, snore, zzzzzz, etc.

George Carlin wrote:

beshocked wrote:So what's the general feeling from Scottish fans going into this year's 6 nations?

How do you think you'll do this year?

1. Depression, mild nausea, difficulty peeing. 
2. Badly. Although we are of course Dark Horses, snore, zzzzzz, etc.

I think we'll win two games: Italy and Wales at home. We are better than Italy and have home advantage. Regarding Wales, we have a terrible recent record against them, but because I think we'll lose our first two games, I think a combination of home advantage, desperation to win from Scotland and a lack of imagination from Wales will see us through.

Ireland at Murrayfield first up will, I suspect, go badly. We always start slowly and Ireland are still a bit puffed up after beating NZ (rightly so).

France away should be doable - I'd say that's our best chance of a third victory, but I think we'll find a way to blow it.

I don't give us a prayer at Twickers.

FES funny things can happen in the first game though. Teams can be rusty. Ireland might well turn up at Murrayfield complacent.

They won't beshocked. They'll know this is a great chance for a grand slam......which I honestly think they'll get.

They're a class apart at the moment.

Barring England.

Yeah I don't think the words Ireland and complacent will go together for this 6N.

On their day Ireland can play with an intensity and pace that is only rivaled by the ABs IMO - I don't think we'll be able to live with that other than if they really drop their level of performance.

I think we'll put up a good fight but never look like winning, and Ireland will win by around 10 points.

And for my money Wales. Not that much between the 3. Chasing pack of Scotland and France hardly a world away either.

Including England.

If the deciding match was in London, then perhaps. Ireland will be too strong for England in Dublin....especially with some key players missing for Jones' side.

I like that on the Scotland twitter feed, they said the 6N squad announcement was tomorrow with a picture advertising the final Scotland - Italy game with "#ourday".

I think the SRU PR team is even more pessimistic than most of us!

NeilyBroon wrote:I like that on the Scotland twitter feed, they said the 6N squad announcement was tomorrow with a picture advertising the final Scotland - Italy game with "#ourday".

I think the SRU PR team is even more pessimistic than most of us!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah I don't think the words Ireland and complacent will go together for this 6N.

On their day Ireland can play with an intensity and pace that is only rivaled by the ABs IMO - I don't think we'll be able to live with that other than if they really drop their level of performance.

I think we'll put up a good fight but never look like winning, and Ireland will win by around 10 points.

Unless of course Paddy Jackson is starting and entrusted with the goal kicking.....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah I don't think the words Ireland and complacent will go together for this 6N.

On their day Ireland can play with an intensity and pace that is only rivaled by the ABs IMO - I don't think we'll be able to live with that other than if they really drop their level of performance.

I think we'll put up a good fight but never look like winning, and Ireland will win by around 10 points.

Unless of course Paddy Jackson is starting and entrusted with the goal kicking.....

It is the first game so Sexton no doubt will be starting against us - I'm sure he'll end up breaking himself for the rest of the 6N though!

You underestimate England and Wales then.

I fancy there to be one or two bolters in the squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You underestimate England and Wales then.

Not so much. I suspect he estimates England and Wales less than you, which is hardly a capital crime.

My estimation of the overall quality is as follows:
1. Ireland - Grand slam favourites
2. England - marginally behind Ireland, due to injuries and a less-sympathetic fixture list
3/4. France/Scotland - both teams on the up, both mentally fragile.
5. Wales - a shadow of their former selves, with no style, a poor coach and poorer conditioning.
6. Italy - a good coach with a few good players, but treading water.

Theres no way in a million years that Scotland and France are better than Wales. It's like me saying Wales are superior to Australia despite never being able to beat them in years.....................

Even a poor Wales still beat two out of the three rugby championship teams we played this autumn.

Id say its more

England
Ireland
Wales
Scotland
France
Italy