The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Thu 25 Feb 2016, 8:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Now it is official (and some guy with a green admin name has ruined the other thread) I shall put this here for you to discuss the referendum.

by Duty281 Mon 16 May 2016, 3:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You aren't China or the US mate...

About time you exit boys realised that.

Well the US have the highest amount of debt in the world, don't they? 19 trillion dollars or something?

Heading the same way as the Soviet Union.

Thank heaven our nation is not as bad as that...yet!

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 May 2016, 3:41 pm

I recognise the similarities with Scottish independence too...........Total chaos..

SNP didn't even know what currency it was going to use Rolling Eyes

or how it was going to self sustain !!.....Apparently there was more oil in the North sea than the rest of the World twice over !! Rolling Eyes

..

People want a bit more than "It'll be alright...You'll see!!"

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 3:43 pm

Ah not to worry..... Westminster got to keep whatever few drops of oil are there anyway, and that was the main thing. Wink

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 3:48 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

People want a bit more than "It'll be alright...You'll see!!"

Oh they're getting a lot more than that too.... they'll see. Listen to a few of this guy's speeches. Guy Verhofstadt

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Guy

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Guy

His most relaxed air is one of mental meltdown! Laugh

And people ridicule Trump???

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 May 2016, 3:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You aren't China or the US mate...

About time you exit boys realised that.

Well the US have the highest amount of debt in the world, don't they? 19 trillion dollars or something?

Heading the same way as the Soviet Union.

Thank heaven our nation is not as bad as that...yet!

I'm sure being the World's greatest super power we'll manage.. thumbsup

by **Pr4wn** Mon 16 May 2016, 3:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:This time last year weren't we all laughing at Scotland for wanting to leave the UK stating how it'd cripple the country if they did despite them being fed up of our rules affecting them?
Yet now we basically want to do a Scotland with the EU?

Entirely different. The SNP's plan for independence was a complete joke, in economic terms.

Where's as the Brexiters' plan for leaving the EU, in economic terms, is non-existant.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 May 2016, 3:55 pm

Brex-Bible................

All these companies threatening to leave and take jobs with them are joking...

99% of top Business leaders don't have a clue...

Security will be much safer with Britain on its own...

Germany and France won't resent paying billions into the EU and will happily let Britain have the best of both Worlds...

Little Britain is going to negotiate these larger Non-European countries into the ground..

Is that a little pig I see flying over there... Wink

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 3:57 pm

The Brexiters don't have to have an economic plan for leaving the EU. That's the job of their Government. Cameron or his successor will be in charge of that. Wink

The Public in a Referendum tell you what they want - their will. Then the Government, paid to do a job by that Public, are tasked with making it so - as Picard often said. "Cameron.... make it so."

by **Pr4wn** Mon 16 May 2016, 4:14 pm

What a cop-out.

by TopHat24/7 Mon 16 May 2016, 4:18 pm

Pr4wn wrote:What a cop-out.

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 5:38 pm

Pr4wn wrote:What a cop-out.

It's the truth. That's democracy. I know, I know - that word is becoming cheaper and cheaper currency by the day; but luckily enough, there is still some vapour left in the old dog.
The paymasters (bosses) pay the servants of the people (politicians and civil servants) to manage their resources for them, so that they can go to work and earn an honest day's pay.
What? You think Simon Harrington, the electrician from Basingstoke, has to come up with a fully costed economic plan on what EU exit will mean to the British economy before he expresses an opinion that he wants the f**k out of the EU?
Did Peter Wakefield, the hairdresser from Manchester, ever get those estimates in to you proving why it was the right thing for him to do to vote Conservative in the last election? Obviously not, as a Referendum Vote on EU membership was a most unwise guarantee to give a Nation not ready to make such wise and fully costed decisions for themselves.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 May 2016, 5:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:What a cop-out.

It's the truth. That's democracy. I know, I know - that word is becoming cheaper and cheaper currency by the day; but luckily enough, there is still some vapour left in the old dog.
The paymasters (bosses) pay the servants of the people (politicians and civil servants) to manage their resources for them, so that they can go to work and earn an honest day's pay.
What? You think Simon Harrington, the electrician from Basingstoke, has to come up with a fully costed economic plan on what EU exit will mean to the British economy before he expresses an opinion that he wants the f**k out of the EU?
Did Peter Wakefield, the hairdresser from Manchester, ever get those estimates in to you proving why it was the right thing for him to do to vote Conservative in the last election? Obviously not, as a Referendum Vote on EU membership was a most unwise guarantee to give a Nation not ready to make such wise and fully costed decisions for themselves.

..Just give it up..

Arguing for the sake of it.....You don't believe any of the crap you're writing....

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 5:47 pm

Here we go. Weakness. Always the personal angle when the alternative view guy cuts too close to the bone.

I describe what Democracy is and it's called Crap.

It is. You're right. In the EU, democracy is called Crap. You're a paid up member of the cult obviously.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 16 May 2016, 5:50 pm

Plenty of heart......But little in the way of consistency and cohesive argument..

That's 33%.... Exactly the same as oddsmakers are rating the chances of an out victory !!.. thumbsup

by SecretFly Mon 16 May 2016, 6:01 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Plenty of heart......But little in the way of consistency and cohesive argument..

That's 33%.... Exactly the same as oddsmakers are rating the chances of an out victory !!..

I think you'll find I'm obsessively consistent on Europe.

Did you check out the self-styled Jesus of Europe, Mr Verhofstadt? Makes Trump look like Lincoln.

"You F**king Greeks! Privatise your Islands! Now!!! So that us Northern Supercrats can purchase them at a nice price and call zem Fatherlandinites!"

One voice, one State, one Leader.

I don't think EU supporters ever even look at the turkeys that operate the European Parliament and Commission.

by Duty281 Mon 16 May 2016, 6:34 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:This time last year weren't we all laughing at Scotland for wanting to leave the UK stating how it'd cripple the country if they did despite them being fed up of our rules affecting them?
Yet now we basically want to do a Scotland with the EU?

Entirely different. The SNP's plan for independence was a complete joke, in economic terms.

Where's as the Brexiters' plan for leaving the EU, in economic terms, is non-existant.

1) Leave the EU and save the equivalent sum of the national deficit over the next decade.
2) Instigate our own trade deals and open ourselves out globally, rather than being fixated with a declining continent.
3) Reconnect with the Commonwealth, a market bigger economically than the EU.
4) Free ourselves of the troublesome regulations of the EU, which currently cost us as much as 13% GDP a year, according to Professor Patrick Minford who - unlike most economic organisations that come to mind - has a track record of success, correctly asserting that the UK shouldn't be part of the ERM or the Euro.

Yeah...non-existent! picard

And while we're at it, we may as well get our sovereignty back!

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 17 May 2016, 7:47 am

Someone buy SecretFly a foil hat...

by TopHat24/7 Tue 17 May 2016, 10:29 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:This time last year weren't we all laughing at Scotland for wanting to leave the UK stating how it'd cripple the country if they did despite them being fed up of our rules affecting them?
Yet now we basically want to do a Scotland with the EU?

Entirely different. The SNP's plan for independence was a complete joke, in economic terms.

Where's as the Brexiters' plan for leaving the EU, in economic terms, is non-existant.

1) Leave the EU and save the equivalent sum of the national deficit over the next decade. What does this mean??! Getting your big new words confused? If you mean how much we 'pay to play' currently, then you're still wrong as every other country has shown that even out the EU you have to pay into it.
2) Instigate our own trade deals and open ourselves out globally, rather than being fixated with a declining continent. 'Instigate' does not exist as a concept in global trade. There is only negotiation. We have a strong hand, but we're also the ones doing the asking here. And others have shown it takes a long time - what do we do in the interim?
3) Reconnect with the Commonwealth, a market bigger economically than the EU. Like the idea, particularly if you mean including India, but UKG is clearly more focussed (even subservient) to China than India and Canada & Oz both have other higher ranking trading interests than the UK.
4) Free ourselves of the troublesome regulations of the EU, which currently cost us as much as 13% GDP a year, according to Professor Patrick Minford who - unlike most economic organisations that come to mind - has a track record of success, correctly asserting that the UK shouldn't be part of the ERM or the Euro. As per Norway and others, trading with the EU still involves being bound by a lot of its red tape, and leaving the EU still wouldn't rid us of the ECHR bull.

Yeah...non-existent!

And while we're at it, we may as well get our sovereignty back!

by TopHat24/7 Tue 17 May 2016, 10:30 am

navyblueshorts wrote:Someone buy SecretFly a foil hat...

Yeh, been thinking that a while now, been going proper ONETWO/David Icke.......

by SecretFly Tue 17 May 2016, 11:03 am

navyblueshorts wrote:Someone buy SecretFly a foil hat...

Well some of your pals in the EU Parliament and Commission certainly seem to keep themselves topped up on the tin foil energy pulses. I laugh that supposedly prim and proper English gents such as many here, stiff-upper lip sorts that can't be having silly nonsense, would actually support the coven of wild-men nutballs who inhabit the Power halls of the EU.

Take a peak at President of the Commission slapping guests on the face as they attend some wine and cheese event. Some of them you just know don't see the funny side, and would love to slap back - with a fist - but yet they lick it up like obedient children. What a weird bunch they are. And the more you study them, the more you realise many of them are institutionalised fruitcakes. Wink

by SecretFly Tue 17 May 2016, 11:06 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Someone buy SecretFly a foil hat...

Yeh, been thinking that a while now, been going proper ONETWO/David Icke.......

Boris and Trump will do me. Wink

Me, Boris and Trump... we know everything. We're in contact with our alien Overlords every night through Facebook, and they give us the lowdown. Some interesting stuff ahead in the next few years. Fasten your seatbelts.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 17 May 2016, 11:11 am

SecretFly wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Someone buy SecretFly a foil hat...

Well some of your pals in the EU Parliament and Commission certainly seem to keep themselves topped up on the tin foil energy pulses. I laugh that supposedly prim and proper English gents such as many here, stiff-upper lip sorts that can't be having silly nonsense, would actually support the coven of wild-men nutballs who inhabit the Power halls of the EU.

Take a peak at President of the Commission slapping guests on the face as they attend some wine and cheese event. Some of them you just know don't see the funny side, and would love to slap back - with a fist - but yet they lick it up like obedient children. What a weird bunch they are. And the more you study them, the more you realise many of them are institutionalised fruitcakes.

Are you trying to be profound or something?

by SecretFly Tue 17 May 2016, 11:26 am

I'm trying to say do your research on the actual details of that abstract thing you support called the EU (Parliament and Commission).

PS - I am Profound. Wink

Do I also need EU permission to make such a claim???

by **Hero** Wed 18 May 2016, 12:48 pm

Interesting report on how EU exit will affect research in our Universities:

Great swaths of research under way in universities and businesses across the UK will come under threat should Britain leave the EU, according to a major report into the nation’s finances.

Crucial work on cancer, computer systems, nanotechnology and engineering - areas where Britain claims world-class expertise - has become heavily reliant on EU grants, making the research highly vulnerable to the slump in support that EU exit could provoke.

The report finds that the EU has propped up UK cancer research to the tune of £126m in the past decade, amounting to more than 40% of public money poured into the work. Over the same period, the cutting-edge field of information and computer systems research, an area the government considers a key driver of the UK economy, received £1bn from Brussels, more than a third of its public funding.

Published by the technology firm DigitalScience, the report draws on UK and EU records to map how billions of pounds in EU grants have paid for work in British labs and companies from 2006 to 2015, and reveals how critical fields of research, and particular regions of the country, would fare should EU funding dry up.

A hefty drop in EU support would see the greatest losses in inner London and the South East, where major universities and companies are adept at winning grants. But other regions more dependent on the EU would be hardest hit, including Dorset, Somerset and other parts of the south west of England; outer London, and regions to the north, including Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Cheshire, Shropshire and Staffordshire.

More than a quarter of public research money that flowed into universities and companies in inner London came from the EU in the past ten years, totalling £132m. But other regions were more dependent on Brussels. The EU paid for 70% of publicly-funded research in outer London, 60% in Dorset and Somerset, and 86% in Shropshire and Staffordshire.

“The UK is dependent on EU funding to a concerning level,” said Daniel Hook at DigitalScience. “On one side, it’s great to be successful, but on the other, if it’s taken away from us, in real terms that is a significant cut in funding.” The top five universities, Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, Imperial and Edinburgh, hauled in more than £2bn in EU funds in the past decade, about a fifth of their public cash.

The report highlights how a slump in EU funds could affect companies differently. Both Rolls Royce and NetComposites, a materials consultancy, are based in Derbyshire, and both received about £50m in EU research grants in the past decade. But while the sum accounts for 95% of NetComposites’ public research coffers, it made up only 12% for Rolls Royce.

Britain is a net contributor to Brussels, but gets more money back for research than it puts in. According to a report from the Lords science committee last month, the UK handed over nearly £4.3bn to EU research projects from 2007 to 2013, but received nearly £7bn back in the same period.

substantial flow of money into UK research would be at risk if Britain left the EU, according to John Palmer, the pro-EU chair of the Lords committee. Nor would the UK government likely step in to plug the gap. At the launch of the Lords report, Palmer said: “You would have to be extremely trusting of the future Chancellor of the Exchequer to think that sort of funding would continue in the event of EU exit.”

The Digital Research Report: Examining Implications of EU exit for the UK Research Base reaches the same conclusion. Only 7% of funds doled out from the EU and the European Research Council have reached non-member states in the past decade. The most successful outsider is Norway, which received only 10% of the sum the UK won from Europe in the same period.

According to the DigitalScience report, Britain is particularly vulnerable to falling EU grants because rather than propelling the UK into a better position, the money has ben used to prop up UK science and mask weak support from the UK government. “We have not invested at a national level to ensure that we keep up with competitors in our own right without EU assistance,” the report states. The UK spends just 1.7% of GDP on science and research, less the OECD average of 2.4%, and far below that of the US at 2.8%.

More than £36m in EU grants went to University College London, Newcastle University and Sheffield University for cancer research in the past ten years, money that would not easily be found elsewhere. “The European research council is a tremendous source of funding for UK cancer research projects that might not otherwise be funded,” said Tariq Enver, director of the UCL Cancer Institute. The money funds basic science, but also collaborations across Europe that allow world-class facilities to share their expertise and work on complex problems, such as rare childhood cancers, that single institutes and even countries cannot easily take on, he said.

According to the report, the EU has stumped up 62% of public money for UK nanotechnology research, where Cambridge University, Glasgow University, and the Cheshire firm, CTech Innovation, are major beneficiaries. The loss of EU funds would have a serious impacts elsewhere, with grants from Brussels amounting to 53% of public money for forestry research; 67% for evolutionary biology studies, and 94% for economics research.

“The UK is tremendously successful in winning money from the EU,” said Hook. “But our success has made it dependent on that stream of funding now. And that is something that the UK government needs to consider carefully, whatever happens after June 23rd.”

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 May 2016, 12:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:I'm trying to say do your research on the actual details of that abstract thing you support called the EU (Parliament and Commission).

PS - I am Profound. Do I also need EU permission to make such a claim???

Not sure anybody on here supports the EU......Perhaps we are waiting for someone to enlighten us on a better alternative..

I know I'm still waiting... Cool

by SecretFly Wed 18 May 2016, 2:01 pm

The EEC?

That was quick.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 18 May 2016, 2:12 pm

Hero: Interesting post (I'm not going to quote!). Being involved in that sort of thing as a career, it's a concern in the event of a 'leave' vote. Government have got away far too long, in any case, with not even remotely supporting the U.K. research base.

by Lowlandbrit Wed 18 May 2016, 9:00 pm

Hero wrote:The report finds that the EU has propped up UK cancer research to the tune of £126m in the past decade, amounting to more than 40% of public money poured into the work. Over the same period, the cutting-edge field of information and computer systems research, an area the government considers a key driver of the UK economy, received £1bn from Brussels, more than a third of its public funding.

Just one of the reasons the talk from Leave about putting every penny that goes to the EU now in the NHS instead is absolutely ridiculous.

by Duty281 Thu 19 May 2016, 1:23 am

How nice of the EU to take our money and reinvest in back into this country. How lovely.

Of course, we have no control over how this money is spent. The EU could pull the plug on the money they invest into UK research whenever they like - and the cynic in me suggests possible blackmail opportunities could arise after the referendum:

"If you don't join the Euro, say bye-bye to your research funding." etc. etc.

By exiting the EU, you can guarantee control, by holding the government of the day accountable to your wishes through the advent of direct democracy - something which is a mere illusion in the EU.

by **Hero** Thu 19 May 2016, 8:00 am

So it'll go into the Austerity pot then being as it's Cameron.

by **Pr4wn** Thu 19 May 2016, 9:25 am

Or to fund pathetic city vanity projects if it's Johnson.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 9:34 am

Duty281 wrote:How nice of the EU to take our money and reinvest in back into this country. How lovely.

Of course, we have no control over how this money is spent. The EU could pull the plug on the money they invest into UK research whenever they like - and the cynic in me suggests possible blackmail opportunities could arise after the referendum:

"If you don't join the Euro, say bye-bye to your research funding." etc. etc.

By exiting the EU, you can guarantee control, by holding the government of the day accountable to your wishes through the advent of direct democracy - something which is a mere illusion in the EU.

Yes we do. We direct it. We tell the EU where we think funds need spending/investing.

You really think we'd cut the cord overnight to all our farmers if we left the EU? No. Stop investing in regeneration of UK's struggling regions? No.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 9:35 am

Pr4wn wrote:Or to fund pathetic city vanity projects if it's Johnson.

Like?

by **Pr4wn** Thu 19 May 2016, 9:39 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Or to fund pathetic city vanity projects if it's Johnson.

Like?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30546501

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 19 May 2016, 10:12 am

Duty281 wrote:How nice of the EU to take our money and reinvest in back into this country. How lovely.

Of course, we have no control over how this money is spent. The EU could pull the plug on the money they invest into UK research whenever they like - and the cynic in me suggests possible blackmail opportunities could arise after the referendum:

"If you don't join the Euro, say bye-bye to your research funding." etc. etc.

By exiting the EU, you can guarantee control, by holding the government of the day accountable to your wishes through the advent of direct democracy - something which is a mere illusion in the EU.

If you think the Government of this country will make up such a shortfall in the event of a 'leave' outcome, you really do have your head up your nether regions.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 10:13 am

Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Or to fund pathetic city vanity projects if it's Johnson.

Like?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30546501

You mean the project with largescale private investment and massive public support?

It's not perfect, a lot of people object to it given some public money is being used, but it's London public money being spent on a London project for the benefit of Londoners. So anyone outside of London can do one.

by **Hero** Thu 19 May 2016, 10:57 am

I thought £115 was private funding, £30m was from London's budget and £30m was from the National Treasury?

by **Pr4wn** Thu 19 May 2016, 11:00 am

Think a third of it is funded by the Treasury.

But I'm pretty sure everyone can do one anyway.

by SecretFly Thu 19 May 2016, 11:01 am

I think a lot of people will have to 'do one' and a bunch of 'twos' to keep that lot of foliage green!

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 11:07 am

Hero wrote:I thought £115 was private funding, £30m was from London's budget and £30m was from the National Treasury?

Sounds about right. Though I thought they were going to be using some CIL money too (unless this is what's making up the 'London budget' component).

Given how much London subsidises rUK, that £30m from the central treasury pot is a pittance rebate. Wouldn't need it if we could keep our SDLT, even just on the resi.

by **Pr4wn** Thu 19 May 2016, 11:09 am

Moot point. If Boris wants his vanity project, London can come up with the money to pay for it, in my opinion.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 11:15 am

The bridge will connect City of Westminster (resi SDLT £487m) with the London Borough of Lambeth (resi SDLT £109m).

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/sep/30/quarter-of-all-stamp-duty-comes-from-10-boroughs

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 May 2016, 11:15 am

Pr4wn wrote:Moot point. If Boris wants his vanity project, London can come up with the money to pay for it, in my opinion.

And London has.

A hundred times over.

And now Saddique Khan has backed it too, so share your ire with him and his vanity project now too.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 20 May 2016, 1:53 pm

The phone pollsters have Remain...18...11...8 points ahead..Unlike online pollsters who have it closer......GE2015 showed online polling being miles out !!..

Whereas I think Out are more motivated and will get the vote out better..

They are too far away for it to matter..

Poor poor campaign..

by Coxy001 Fri 20 May 2016, 1:55 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn36cSMxpWg

Oh dear, duty. Oh dear.

by SecretFly Fri 20 May 2016, 2:07 pm

Nice comment below it too Wink

.

by Guest Fri 20 May 2016, 3:33 pm

Duty281 wrote:How nice of the EU to take our money and reinvest in back into this country. How lovely.

Of course, we have no control over how this money is spent. The EU could pull the plug on the money they invest into UK research whenever they like - and the cynic in me suggests possible blackmail opportunities could arise after the referendum:

"If you don't join the Euro, say bye-bye to your research funding." etc. etc.

By exiting the EU, you can guarantee control, by holding the government of the day accountable to your wishes through the advent of direct democracy - something which is a mere illusion in the EU.

Surely the best response would be, "Stump up the cash or there's no cancer treatment breakthrough and you can explain why people seem to be dropping like flies."

by Duty281 Fri 20 May 2016, 3:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The phone pollsters have Remain...18...11...8 points ahead..Unlike online pollsters who have it closer......GE2015 showed online polling being miles out !!..

Whereas I think Out are more motivated and will get the vote out better..

They are too far away for it to matter..

Poor poor campaign..

Phone polling is inaccurate where this referendum is concerned. Some chap at ICM:

“The narrative that phone polls are more likely to be right ignores some fundamental flaws in phone methods. Labour supporters are continually oversampled by phone, and that may matter more than those same phone polls missing out on supposedly pro-’remain’ types, who are disproportionately less likely to turn out to vote."

And YouGov are pretty confident of the same problem existing, saying that groups of people more likely to vote Remain are oversampled on the phone:

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/05/20/revealed-evidence-greater-skews-phone-polls/

by **Pr4wn** Fri 20 May 2016, 4:08 pm

Your continued optimism will make the Kippers' defeat all the more delicious.

by Duty281 Fri 20 May 2016, 4:39 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Your continued optimism will make the Kippers' defeat all the more delicious.

If we vote to Remain, the Kippers are the clear winners. UKIP will get a mass avalanche of support, in such a scenario, from millions of anti-EU Tory and Labour voters and defections from dozens of (mostly) Tory MPs who will finally understand that the only way of getting out of the European Union is to put a political party who are firmly anti-EU into 10 Downing Street.

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