Who Would You LikeTo See As England Captain?

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I think the writing is on the wall for Chris Robshaw. I think that's fairly obvious following his poor decision-making over the years, especially in the RWC Welsh game, as well as the much-reported soundbite from Eddie Jones that he doesn't regard him as an international openside. As a result I am not certain he makes the starting line-up now as a 6.

So what are the alternatives? Either an interim captain or long-term? And who? It's subjective anyway as we don't know what the squad is yet - there may be some high-level casualties.

Wood is as good as gone - as much of a fan of his I have been, he's been woeful for England recently so I think he'll have to fight his way back in. Ford? Not sure he's up to it yet. Farrell for me is too much of a hot head and needs calming down. Centres are undecided right now, with Slade the only fit and available player from the RWC and he's only got 2 caps. The captain for me has to be an absolute certain starter on the team sheet every time - and there's precious few of those right now. My thoughts? Based on their all-round ability, relative experience, likelihood of being a team sheet "essential player" and youth, I would aim for one of Joe Launchbury or Billy Vunipola. Both class acts on the pitch, and I believe both would have the respect of their teammates. Will Greenwood rates Launchbury highly - my only concern is would he be vocal enough?? Still, I would be happy for either right now.

BamBam wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I disagree that Brown is a prat (wouldn't have him as captain either because of position), and Launchbury is definitely our best lock, other than that I'd agree with your assessment

I'd go with Launchbury

Each to their own. For me I can't stand the guy. Although as a fellow Scottish poster pointed out his facial expressions whilst playing for Quins every time Tim McMisser is in a position to miss a tackle is priceless.

For me The captain has to be in the center or in the pack. The area of the game where the referees need the most "help" in terms of rule interpenetration from players is the breakdown. A full back IMO isn't involved enough in this area to put pressure on the refs the way Warburton, McCaw (formerly), Dusatoir, Moore etc all do.

I agree with you on Brown not being the captain for the same reasons you mention (see the bit in brackets above), just disagree that Brown is a prat!

Alright, I misinterpreted what you meant.

Even if he was a forward though you can't think he would have a good mentality to talk to the ref? From a Scotland perspective Laidlaw I think is a good captain but IMO he rubs some refs up the wrong way, similar to what I think Brown would do.

It's been a long while since England has had an obvious choice of captain. Not since Johnson really.

I would personally select Launchbury were I in Eddie Jones' shoes, but more on the principle of him being the best choice out of my preferred starting XV, than any demonstrated leadership capabilities thus far.

From a Scotland perspective I'd select Owen Farrell, purely to keep George Ford out of the England team.

I don't think Johnson was the 'obvious choice' that we seem to think he was. He didn't have masses of captaincy experience and only got the England job due to Dallaglio's indiscretions. he then went on to captain the Lions twice and cement his reputation. I agree though, it would be a bit of a rabbit out of the hat trick if Eddie Jones could find the next 'great' captain. One thing that is clear though is that it isn't Robshaw.

Johnson was selected to captain Lions the first time in 97, when Phil de Glanville was still England captain. Around the same time MJ was made club captain at Leicester.

That summer Woodward took the england job and in the autumn appointed Dayglo as his first skipper, preferring him to MJ who he considered too "old school".

Johnson first captained England in 98 in two WC qualifying fixtures, and took over the captaincy permanently when Dayglo was all over the tabloids (NotW?).

Great point about MJ.  I had forgotten the Lions came first.  
It was clear at the very young age he had unique leadership potential along with his obvious playing skills.  When looking for a captain, I think leadership skills have to be there along with being a regular in the squad.  Looking at Lancaster's choir boys (excluding Brown and Hartley) they all seem such nice quiet gentle lads.  

Looking at some recent national captains:  McCaw, Thierry Dusautoir, Paul O'Connell, Martin Johnson, AWJ, these are all blokes I can see people charging through brick walls for.  Tough smart leaders.  No ballet dancers in the bunch.

Launchbury strikes me as a baby faced assassin. Looks like a choir boy, but with a spine of pure adamantium (shame his discs cannot cope). I kind of hope he could develop into being a captain like another choirboy Alastair Cook. A man who is most definitely made of steel (hell he doesn't even sweat). He has learnt on the job and is now much more astute, but that inner steel behind the choirboys mask was always there.

Mike Brown is a Corporal. The sort who wins an posthumous VC. He will charge balls out into the combat, not really looking to see if anyone is following.

Robshaw is a Lieutenant. He really wants to be a leader, he is a jolly nice chap and, if the Sergeant permits it, the men will follow him. But when the battle is at it's height he really needs the advice of his Sergeant. He would have won a battlefield Captaincy just before leading his men in a slow march towards the machine guns of the somme.

Easter could have been the sergeant, but he kept getting busted down to the ranks and frankly preferred a quick ciggie behind the mess hall.

Hartley was the CSM with all the bark and strutting chest you would expect. Sadly his was a company in the Corps of Army Music.

There aren't many guaranteed starters for England so you would have to give it to one of about 4 or 5.

Launch, Simmo, Hughes, Daly or Wade

It would be a surprise if Jones gave the captaincy to a young player relatively new to the international scene, so I don't think we'll see a Will Carling-type appointment.

From the list of his previous captaincy appointments, Hirose stands out for Japan with only a single cap to his name when he got the job from Jones. However, he was 32 at the time.

Jones will be attracted by the experience of Robshaw, Wood, Haskell and Hartley - even Barritt - but will know they all carry baggage. Launchbury has the right kind of profile as far as we are concerned, but Jones might think he has too little leadership experience to trust with the role immediately.

If he fancies Youngs or Care as starting scrum halves then they might fit the bill for him. A completely left field choice would be Nick Easter. Everyone would know that he wasn't going to be in the job, or even his position, for long but he has the rugby brain, skills and experience Jones likes.

Whoever Jones chooses, I think he'll want him to be in the role before we head to Australia. Jones will be the focus for most of the media attention down under but I don't think he'll want to be blooding a new captain when he returns to his old backyard.

LondonTiger wrote:Launchbury strikes me as a baby faced assassin. Looks like a choir boy, but with a spine of pure adamantium (shame his discs cannot cope). I kind of hope he could develop into being a captain like another choirboy Alastair Cook. A man who is most definitely made of steel (hell he doesn't even sweat). He has learnt on the job and is now much more astute, but that inner steel behind the choirboys mask was always there.

Mike Brown is a Corporal. The sort who wins an posthumous VC. He will charge balls out into the combat, not really looking to see if anyone is following.

Robshaw is a Lieutenant. He really wants to be a leader, he is a jolly nice chap and, if the Sergeant permits it, the men will follow him. But when the battle is at it's height he really needs the advice of his Sergeant. He would have won a battlefield Captaincy just before leading his men in a slow march towards the machine guns of the somme.

Easter could have been the sergeant, but he kept getting busted down to the ranks and frankly preferred a quick ciggie behind the mess hall.

Hartley was the CSM with all the bark and strutting chest you would expect. Sadly his was a company in the Corps of Army Music.

Brown is a scrapper, nothing more nothing less. To even put him in that sentence is ridiculous and vaguely offensive to those that have died in action

I apologise that you have chosen to be offended.

I also suspect you would have been even more offended if you had realised I was not being complimentary.

Good summary LT. I like the idea of Brown as some gobby Cpl who'd do his all for the cause.

The only real candidate is Launchbury surely?

I simply think Mike Brown is a bit nuts. As I said some time ago - wouldn't allow him around women and children.

Are you suggesting Launchbury because he is the only guy you think is nailed on?

Pretty much Dr, who else is there?

Launchbury could certainly grow into the role and I like the idea of a lock being captain towering over the ref.

That's a fair point. Just wanted to check.
No real idea where Eddie will go on this. Four years ago, I am not sure any of us would have predicted Robshaw would be captain. And he didn't play himself out of the role. Do you think Launchbury knows when to take penalty kicks?

He'll have to learn.

We need to get rid of this group situation where we had 4/5 players piping up with conflicting ideas in Robshaws ear. Farrell needs to learn how to button it too.

Is it really that hard when to take the kick?

Was the Japanese captain wrong to go for the try?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was the Japanese captain wrong to go for the try?

9/10 I'd say yes.

It was a kickable pen which I think would have got them the draw? You have to put it into context, Japan were unlikely to qualify so they had very little to lose.

Fair enough. I think it's interesting though that a lot of the decision making is judged after the outcome has occured.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. I think it's interesting though that a lot of the decision making is judged after the outcome has occured.

Yep. Had England scored a try vs Wales with that play things would be different now. You could say that the mistake wasn't going for the kick to the corner - its a very 50/50 decision.

The mistake came in the lineout in doing exactly what Wales expected us to do (short ball to Robshaw) and given how well they were playing at the time they were able to easily defend it.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. I think it's interesting though that a lot of the decision making is judged after the outcome has occured.

Yep. Had England scored a try vs Wales with that play things would be different now. You could say that the mistake wasn't going for the kick to the corner - its a very 50/50 decision.

The mistake came in the lineout in doing exactly what Wales expected us to do (short ball to Robshaw) and given how well they were playing at the time they were able to easily defend it.

I don't think Robshaw can be blamed for that call. It was an extremely tough kick on Farrell's worst side, I think he made the right decision given the circumstances. If it was an easier kick then he had to go for it but it was very harsh to jump on his back.

The line out call was shocking, but that's a different debate.

The line out call isn't really another debate, it is an example of another bad decision. Do you not think that there is a pattern of mistakes under Robshaw - and are there any standout examples of big decisions taken that worked? I am not wishing to cane Robshaw, but I don't think you would hold up his captaincy history as a model for others to follow. I think in part he is required to have higher captaincy skills because he was struggling to justify his position as a 7 purely on his playing ability. Part of the reason he was undroppable at 7 was because he was 'captain fantastic'.

I appreciate the only person who doesn't make a mistake is one who never has to make a decision and we can all be wise after the event, but I think when you look at the overall performance as no 7 and captain, it has not been a success.

The questions over Robshaw's ability to play at 7 only really come from people who have a fixed view of what a 7 is. RWC aside he has been consistently one of our best performers and its actually been a fairly rare event when one of the fashionable 7's has got the better of him.

It doesn't mean his position shouldn't be reviewed like everyone else. We have enough players in the system to mean that choosing the right guys for a particular game plan will mean that some very good players won't have a place*. But to say Robshaw hasn't been worth his place to date on playing ability is laughable.

*This is something I often wonder about Itoje and where he might fit in - as in its easy to say yes great lets put him in at lock, without then considering who to drop.

I didn't realise Robshaw made the lineout call also.

When all the locks are fit and bang in form would itoje be starting? Im not sure.

He should be brought through slowly and grow in to himself physically so to speak. And find out exactly which position he will play.

Itoje is not near a starting England spot, he's against Launchbury for the 4 jersey.

And Attwood, Kitchener, Slater, Kruis, Lawes etc for the other shirt.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't realise Robshaw made the lineout call also.

I don't know but over the last few seasons any time its a really critical throw like that he tends to take the catch. He takes the responsibility as captain, which can be a good thing.

However it would not have been rocket science to have expected the same at that point in the match on THAT evening

GeordieFalcon wrote:And Attwood, Kitchener, Slater, Kruis, Lawes etc for the other shirt.

And I am not convinced Itoje will be the 6 we need either.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't realise Robshaw made the lineout call also.

Id be surprised as Parling was on from the start & he was making the line out calls wasn't he?

nlpnlp wrote:The line out call isn't really another debate, it is an example of another bad decision.  Do you not think that there is a pattern of mistakes under Robshaw - and are there any standout examples of big decisions taken that worked?  I am not wishing to cane Robshaw, but I don't think you would hold up his captaincy history as a model for others to follow.  I think in part he is required to have higher captaincy skills because he was struggling to justify his position as a 7 purely on his playing ability.  Part of the reason he was undroppable at 7 was because he was 'captain fantastic'.

I appreciate the only person who doesn't make a mistake is one who never has to make a decision and we can all be wise after the event, but I think when you look at the overall performance as no 7 and captain, it  has not been a success.

Wow what a way to rewrite history!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't realise Robshaw made the lineout call also.

Id be surprised as Parling was on from the start & he was making the line out calls wasn't he?

That's what I was kind of getting at. I'm not a huge fan of Robshaw but it's tough to blame him for everything.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't realise Robshaw made the lineout call also.

Id be surprised as Parling was on from the start & he was making the line out calls wasn't he?

Yes but bets that Robshaw overruled him here? I am not saying Robshaw is the best we can do, but some things he does do suggest he is more of a leader than we like to make out. He took the responsibility of making the catch. It was in hindsight the wrong thing to do, but he does lead from the front

It is very easy to confuse being a good leader with a lucky one. Both can be useful

nlpnlp wrote:...Part of the reason he was undroppable at 7 was because he was 'captain fantastic'...

I see others are picking you up on that, so I'll add my voice. Robshaw was never selected on his captaincy. Lancaster originally intended to choose Wood, but he was injured. It was a regular complaint of mine that others weren't given more chances at open side or captaincy, in the interests of giving others experience. However, Lancaster chose Robshaw for his value as a player, not because he was some kind of rugby version of Mike Brearley.

I am sure i posted this yesterday but cannot find it. so i will post it again.

It as always been my belief that who ever the Captain of the team is, He will have to be a definite starter.  So who do we have that will be a definite starter? Will James Haskell or Tom Wood be definite selection?

What about Dylan Hartley. I know he lost the captains arm band at Saints, but who is there that as captained a side before?

Surely the Captain of the England squad should have had experience of being captain for his side.

There seem to be a lot calling for Joe Launchbery , has he been  captain of Wasp yet?

I personaly would not mind Robshaw keeping the arm band. But Eddie Jones as different ideas.

At this stage it is not important. Better for Eddie to not be committed to keep selecting a player just because he made him captain. Let him select a new look England side with the sole purpose of beating Scotland and then we can worry about the next game after that.

I cant believe people are actually criticsing Robshaw!!

Disregard his Captaincy he has always been consistently one of our standout performers. Shuffle him across to 6 and he'll be amongst the best 6's in the world. I don't say that in jest...he has everything a Lydiat or Hardy or anyone else has at 6.

Like many fans, it's the popular thing to do at the moment. Robs haw has always put in tireless shifts and has always been near the top for tackles

Nathan the thing is he has actually done pretty well in turnovers and that area. Not earth shattering but not half as bad as some make out.

He could be very effective at 6.

Having said that, ill be looking for Eddie to give Ewers a chance aswell.

I'm don't think Robshaw will ever be one of the best in the world in any position GF. He's a work horse but lacks pace. Eddie kind of hit the nail, what he's exceptional at?

So what do you guys expect from the 6 Nations?

Would you be happy with Jones experimenting quite heavily and trying to find his best team/style etc even if that meant losing most of the games?

bedfordwelsh wrote:So what do you guys expect from the 6 Nations?

Would you be happy with Jones experimenting quite heavily and trying to find his best team/style etc even if that meant losing most of the games?

NO. In my opinion it is not the time for experimenting. This we are a new team as too stop.

England did not win any thing with Stuart Lancaster, so the Englis board got rid of him and Brought in Eddie Jones. So now for me England must winning from the off. And that means the 6ns, either out right( Grand Slam ) or at least the tournament winners.

Disagree with the thought we have to win the 6Ns no ifs or buts. What happens if we don't? Sack him?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm don't think Robshaw will ever be one of the best in the world in any position GF. He's a work horse but lacks pace. Eddie kind of hit the nail, what he's exceptional at?

The pace argument is not a great one. Pace is very important for wingers, and fairly important for many positions, but its not everything.

It's not that it isn't important for guys like Robshaw to be fast, but what is important is being at the right place at the right time, and that is something he has traditionally been very good at.

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm don't think Robshaw will ever be one of the best in the world in any position GF. He's a work horse but lacks pace. Eddie kind of hit the nail, what he's exceptional at?

The pace argument is not a great one. Pace is very important for wingers, and fairly important for many positions, but its not everything.

It's not that it isn't important for guys like Robshaw to be fast, but what is important is being at the right place at the right time, and that is something he has traditionally been very good at.

I disagree, a 7 in the traditional mould (breakdown and link play) requires some pace. Robshaw is possibly the slowest 7 in International rugby with only Pocock coming close, but he is outstanding at the breakdown which Robshaw isn't.

If you look around some of the other nations SOB, Cane, Hardie, Warburton, Hooper, Louw etc, they possess a certain amount of gas. Robshaw is a very slow player, this only helps to highlight his other average (or hold back) attributes.

I do like Robshaw, he's a workhorse, but he's pretty much Mr Average across the board unfortunately.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm don't think Robshaw will ever be one of the best in the world in any position GF. He's a work horse but lacks pace. Eddie kind of hit the nail, what he's exceptional at?

I agree with that, but sometimes you done always need exceptional. You need a few workhorses and grunters to help the exceptional ones.
Robshaw is that type that he does stuff well and will give the platform for the others to go do their stuff.

Having said all that...id still like to see Ewers trialled.

And Haskell frustrates the hell out of me. Why cant he play consistently for England the way he does for Wasps!!

Dai young pushing Launchbury's captaincy claim I see.

Launchbury is a curious one.

I think he could do it very well...but id personally see him just focus on becoming a world class lock which he can be.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disagree with the thought we have to win the 6Ns no ifs or buts. What happens if we don't? Sack him?

NO. Sack Richie instead. after all he is the one who selected Jones in the first place.

Why though? To me it looks like a good appointment. I've only really seen people wanting White instead, maybe a few for the Rennie or Smith. Doesn't look like a horrendous appointment. If Richie went surely you're saying the coach has failed and it was a big mistake to appoint?