Who Would You LikeTo See As England Captain?

I think the writing is on the wall for Chris Robshaw. I think that's fairly obvious following his poor decision-making over the years, especially in the RWC Welsh game, as well as the much-reported soundbite from Eddie Jones that he doesn't regard him as an international openside. As a result I am not certain he makes the starting line-up now as a 6.

So what are the alternatives? Either an interim captain or long-term? And who? It's subjective anyway as we don't know what the squad is yet - there may be some high-level casualties.

Wood is as good as gone - as much of a fan of his I have been, he's been woeful for England recently so I think he'll have to fight his way back in. Ford? Not sure he's up to it yet. Farrell for me is too much of a hot head and needs calming down. Centres are undecided right now, with Slade the only fit and available player from the RWC and he's only got 2 caps. The captain for me has to be an absolute certain starter on the team sheet every time - and there's precious few of those right now. My thoughts? Based on their all-round ability, relative experience, likelihood of being a team sheet "essential player" and youth, I would aim for one of Joe Launchbury or Billy Vunipola. Both class acts on the pitch, and I believe both would have the respect of their teammates. Will Greenwood rates Launchbury highly - my only concern is would he be vocal enough?? Still, I would be happy for either right now.

As an outsider looking then the one person who impresses me all the time (though know he's not first choice) is Parling, after that then Launchbury would be there or there abouts.

Am not a big Billy V fan and think Morgan is better but this is from a neutral POV.

Doubt Parling will make the team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doubt Parling will make the team.

Have heard that many times now but he's always really impressed me when seen him play. Guess with the options England have they could pick many combinations

I'd have Ben Youngs or maybe Hartley (if he gets back in - I'd have George above him at the moment).

Launchbury for the future possibly. I think he's one of those 'lead by example' types rather than being a shouter. Billy V also seems a bit too quiet and I don't really consider him somebody who would be natural at rallying the troops.

Mike Brown?

I think id leave Launchbury to just focus on becoming a top class lock.

MIke Brown would be an interesting one for a temporary stop gap for a season till someone like Clifford or Itoje or Slater etc really nail a spot in the side.

But I do prefer my captain in the pack.

None of the current breed have that buzz of a leader...but quite a few of the younger breed do.

Clifford, Kvesic, Itoje, etc etc

I think there are no clear candidates.  Best then to pick the team and then pick a captain.

It is NOT essential now to nail down a captain for the next four years, would be nice if it could be done but let's select the best team first.

Captain's in cricket have the most influence (hence Mike Brearley). Rugby less so.

we need a group of leaders identified

Guys like Hartley, Marler, Robshaw, Care all bring leadership anyway.

Haskell for captain? Played as a hard carrying big hitting 6 he'd be great (like at Wasps). And he has over 50 caps and people skills.

No clear candidates and maybe time is right to look at someone younger like an Itoje, he is playing very well for Saracens is a natural leader which there aren't many others. Think we need to look away from others who have consistently not performed for England including Haskell, Robshaw and Marler. Time for a new chapter, we were told before there was a great leadership group who quite clearly were unable to bring any sort of sensible and coherent leadership.
Hartley would be the only one for me who has this from old regime and with only a few yellow cards in his England career he could do it if the younger lads are deemed not quite ready. Surely Itoje is the future though and maybe making the prediction that in 4 yrs time he will be first choice 2nd row then maybe worth moulding him into the captain now.

Not sure why people are mentioning Hartley as captain, he isn't even captain for his club now so he can concentrate on trying not to call the ref a Frak cheat

James Haskell.

majesticimperialman wrote:James Haskell.

i depends if he can keep his performances up. He can be a player that is so up and down in form

nathan wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:James Haskell.

i depends if he can keep his performances up. He can be a player that is so up and down in form

He has had enough chances and to be honest his basics in terms of handling and awareness are not good enough. Plus he is not the best No.6 and with players like Clifford and Ewers coming through I really don't want to see their progression into international team stopped because we have chosen Haskell as captain. Obviously Eddie may disagree but I would be shocked to see Haskell(c) on an Engalnd teamsheet.

nathan wrote:Not sure why people are mentioning Hartley as captain, he isn't even captain for his club now so he can concentrate on trying not to call the ref a Frak cheat

Genuine leadership quality both by action and communication, by some distance best hooker in England (at the moment, LCD will push him this year and maybe fat boy too), discipline for England never been in question and opposition respect him. Made mistakes for Northampton not in doubt but doesn't diminish his England performances.

Which team do you support by the way?

nathan wrote:Which team do you support by the way?

Not Northampton so not a bias comment.

Student-A1 wrote:

nathan wrote:Which team do you support by the way?

Not Northampton so not a bias comment.

Lol, wasn't going to say it was bias. Just wondered as I don't think I've seen you post on here before

I float on when I have time, spend most my time with people who don't talk about sport and only football when they do. Nice to have a converation with people who talk about rugby. And it is Bath by the way

I see no point in anointing a skipper to take us to 2019 right now.

Pick the team then pick the skipper.

LondonTiger wrote:I see no point in anointing a skipper to take us to 2019 right now.

Pick the team then pick the skipper.

Surely has to be some thought on the subject and to be honest I 100% think there will. I don't think the captain appointment will be looked upon as short term.

If we have to decide on a long term skipper right now, then I choose Launchbury.

What I do not want to see though is any player being selected because he is captain. If the skipper does not warrant his place in the team on ability - he will always struggle to gain the backing of the team.

Since Martin Johnson stopped playing 14 men have captained England. Many we stand-ins but of the ones who were appointed for any length of time it is arguable that none were worthy of their place for the entire tenure. (looking at Tindall, Moody, Borthwick, Corry and Vickery here - none of them bad players, but perhaps kept in the team because they were skipper)

LondonTiger wrote:If we have to decide on a long term skipper right now, then I choose Launchbury.

What I do not want to see though is any player being selected because he is captain. If the skipper does not warrant his place in the team on ability - he will always struggle to gain the backing of the team.

Since Martin Johnson stopped playing 14 men have captained England. Many we stand-ins but of the ones who were appointed for any length of time it is arguable that none were worthy of their place for the entire tenure. (looking at Tindall, Moody, Borthwick, Corry and Vickery here - none of them bad players, but perhaps kept in the team because they were skipper)

Agree you have to warrant a place but people have dips in form and if someone is installed as captain is it right they are replaced as easily as other players. I don't know the answer to that as we were stuck with Robshaw for 4 years when his form or indeed his skills to a position did not warrant. It is a tough one as it was only a few years back when some of my Welsh mates were going mad at how poorly Warberton was playing for Cardiff and in internationals and calling for Tupuric. Obviously was never going to happen, but was it right?? I don't know.

Well I think there's an obvious candidate: Launchbury. He's nailed on to start if fit and seems to me to have the look of a leader. I don't think it would faze him at-all. Personally I'll be surprised if it is anyone else.

DaveM wrote:Well I think there's an obvious candidate: Launchbury. He's nailed on to start if fit and seems to me to have the look of a leader. I don't think it would faze him at-all. Personally I'll be surprised if it is anyone else.

Agree he is one of if not the only banker to start but never seen him as a leader. However could easily develop and if leading by example then not many better than him. Would be happy with Launchbury if chosen.

Student-A1 wrote:

nathan wrote:Not sure why people are mentioning Hartley as captain, he isn't even captain for his club now so he can concentrate on trying not to call the ref a Frak cheat

Genuine leadership quality both by action and communication, by some distance best hooker in England (at the moment, LCD will push him this year and maybe fat boy too), discipline for England never been in question and opposition respect him. Made mistakes for Northampton not in doubt but doesn't diminish his England performances.

As a thought, should a front rower player be a Captain, given they're expected to be replaced after about 60 minutes?

Launchbury is a good call, he's learnt a lot from Haskell who is take as captain this 6Ns then look at some one else for the summer if we need to.

Why throw away so much experience just to get someone new in?

yappysnap wrote:Launchbury is a good call, he's learnt a lot from Haskell who is take as captain this 6Ns then look at some one else for the summer if we need to.

Why throw away so much experience just to get someone new in?

Experience in what excactly though?? Dropping simple passes, tripping people up and giving away loads of needless penalties. Haskell is a physical specimen no doubt but he has consistently flattered to deceive for England. Nothing about experience here just purely based on ability and Haskell just isn't good enough IMO.

It may be a short term solution and dependent on his injury run being over and done with, but if it is I'd like to see Croft get it. I appreciate that I'm probably alone in that, and that he doesn't do the powerful play that many want to see in a flanker. However, the things he does do well he does very well and I expect they are the kind of things that Jones will want in the team - he gets turnovers both from speed to the break down and at the lineout, his fitness level appears to be excellent, he understands that you can run into the gaps between players, provides good support play and has good passing skills. If that is enough to secure his place in the team, he has more experience than most in the England squad and generally seems fairly sensible so I assume he'd be capable of the decision making. There are youngsters that look as if they may become leaders in time, but I wouldn't want them to have too much put on them too quickly.

Student-A1 wrote:

nathan wrote:Not sure why people are mentioning Hartley as captain, he isn't even captain for his club now so he can concentrate on trying not to call the ref a Frak cheat

Genuine leadership quality both by action and communication, by some distance best hooker in England (at the moment, LCD will push him this year and maybe fat boy too), discipline for England never been in question and opposition respect him. Made mistakes for Northampton not in doubt but doesn't diminish his England performances.

Hartley got an eight week ban for biting Ferris in the 6N, so his discipline is questionable at Test level too.

England could go down the route of picking a young player for the future who has natural leadership skills as they did with Will Carling, which for me would be Itoje.  Or they could go the Martin Johnson route - someone with little or no leadership experience, but guaranteed his place and someone who would lead by example - which is Launchbury for me.

After that I think Jones might keep Robshaw for this 6 Nations for a bit of stability and then move him on when someone sticks their hand up during those games for Eddie Jones to go with them - perhaps Kvesic, B Youngs, Brown.

Hartley just has too much previous for Northampton and England for me to be considered.  As much of a fan of Haskell that I am, I think his England days may now be gone.  With a new coach there is inevitably a new broom, as they look to move the team forward by moving a few senior players on.  The cupboard is looking pretty bare for England at the moment though.

1.Marler
2.George, Hartley
3.Cole, Brookes, Wilson, Thomas
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kitchener, Slater, Itoje
6.Robshaw, Haskell, Itoje, Ewers, Wood
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Vunipola, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care
10.Ford, Slade, Farrell, Cipriani

11.May, Nowell
12.Slade, Tuilagi, Burrell, Hill
13.Joseph, Tuilagi, Daly
14.Watson, Wade
15.Brown

Give or take a few names (Yarde, Roko, Foden, Pennell?) that is how team debates are looking at current!

From that we have Marler, Launchbury and Brown who people seem most certain they still want starting?

Marler has captaincy experience with Quins but it wasn't the most successful season and he had a real dip in form for the RWC.

Launchbury is natural choice on the pitch as he is everywhere and could lead by example. He is a quiet character of it however.

Brown I'd imagine would bring passion and fire to the captaincy much the same as he does in the pitch. Whether this would boil over is up for question though.

All in all I'd agree with LT. Pick a XV then select your captain.

No problem with Robshaw IF he is in the starting fifteen on merit, but I would not include him just for consistency.  Like many other pick the best fifteen and then pick a captain.

First I would choose my fifteen.
1.Waller
2.George
3.Brookes
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Itoje
7.Fraser
8.Morgan

9.Simpson
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Slade,
13.Daly
14.Watson
15.Brown

Based on that I think it has to be Launchbury.

Difficult to pick a starting 15 at the moment....so many EQ players are playing very well.

Henry Thomas at TH seriously impressed me...as did his partner on the otherside Auterac.
Brookes was MOM

Mullan played well yet again at LH

Can Eddie Jones finally bring some consistency to James Haskell at this level. Haskell doing what he does week in week out for Wasps is EXACTLY what England need...yet we rarely see it.
Does he need a more basic role on the pitch...just tackle your heart out and carry your heart out. Leave the thinking stuff to the other players. Then he could be a temporary captain...

That's exactly what Haskell needs and with say Kvesic at 7 I think they'd go well.

Think Haskell should really be left behind now, think hes had enough chances for us to know he'll never fulfil his potential.

Which players have experience of captaining their side in the AP?

From tigers all I can think of is B. Youngs and Ed Slater

Are we in danger of over-rating the role of captain.  Technically a captain may decide the toss (not as important as in Cricket), decide what to do with a penalty, and talk to the referee.

Yes, very good captains can be inspiration (Johnson), but if no such option currently exist.  Just chose someone to fulfill the technical role(s) AFTER deciding on the best fifteen.  Over the next 4 years (probably less), someone will emerge.

I still think the Captains role is very important.

Picking the best team first is the priority no matter what, but we still need a captain. If they are new to the role then they need the experience

I'd stick with Robshaw. I don't think he is a bad captain. People are citing his decision to go for the corner against Wales in the RWC is indicative of poor decision making.

I have said it on a few threads it was the right choice. However the line out was executed poorly.

He leads by example, seldom makes mistakes and has a good nature and character to boot.

Who else?

Brown? A total prat who is likely to embarrass England in post match interviews. Besides fullbacks make poor captains since they are rarely in a position to influence a ref at the breakdown or scrum.

Launchbury? I'm not convinced he is England's best option at lock never mind a contender for the captaincy.

Morgan? I'd put him in the maybe pile.

Haskell? "Blows hot and cold like the AC" as professor Green would say.

Marler? Fairly or not, has a reputation with referees for driving diagonally. Hard to be in a position of influence when every ref thinks that you aren't throwing straight dice at every scrum.

Cole? Another I'd put in the maybe pile.

Cutting a long story short until someone else steps up Robshaw is the best England has IMO.

Have to disagree about the Robshaw's decision making. Borthwick for example would have studied the statistics before the match, and already known that in this case a kick would have a higher probability of enabling England to progress.

I agree Robshaw is the ultimate leader by example (Borthwick for all his effort and brains, too often got knocked back in the tackle*). Maybe he should stay Captain and appoint a player as "analyst".

As to your list - Morgan will be behind Vinipoala (and in a year Nathan Hughes) in the No 8 pecking order. Cole has fallen off so far he shouldn't be in the team. Also - front rows get subbed around 60 min.

*And I hope Borthwick is considered for a coaching role.

I disagree that Brown is a prat (wouldn't have him as captain either because of position), and Launchbury is definitely our best lock, other than that I'd agree with your assessment

I'd go with Launchbury

BamBam wrote:I disagree that Brown is a prat (wouldn't have him as captain either because of position), and Launchbury is definitely our best lock, other than that I'd agree with your assessment

I'd go with Launchbury

Each to their own. For me I can't stand the guy. Although as a fellow Scottish poster pointed out his facial expressions whilst playing for Quins every time Tim McMisser is in a position to miss a tackle is priceless.

For me The captain has to be in the center or in the pack. The area of the game where the referees need the most "help" in terms of rule interpenetration from players is the breakdown. A full back IMO isn't involved enough in this area to put pressure on the refs the way Warburton, McCaw (formerly), Dusatoir, Moore etc all do.

Maro Itoje would get my vote, already captained Saracens on occasions and can pay at 6 or Lock so wouldn't be hard to find a place for him in the starting team. Would have to show a lot of faith in a young guy but no one else stands out as a absolute starter in any position I'd pick a captain from.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I disagree that Brown is a prat (wouldn't have him as captain either because of position), and Launchbury is definitely our best lock, other than that I'd agree with your assessment

I'd go with Launchbury

Each to their own. For me I can't stand the guy. Although as a fellow Scottish poster pointed out his facial expressions whilst playing for Quins every time Tim McMisser is in a position to miss a tackle is priceless.

For me The captain has to be in the center or in the pack. The area of the game where the referees need the most "help" in terms of rule interpenetration from players is the breakdown. A full back IMO isn't involved enough in this area to put pressure on the refs the way Warburton, McCaw (formerly), Dusatoir, Moore etc all do.

I agree with you on Brown not being the captain for the same reasons you mention (see the bit in brackets above), just disagree that Brown is a prat!

Itoje really good enough yet to hold down a starting place?

I think Jones likes his captains to have plenty of experience in a leadership role and/or play in a position which puts them at the heart of the game.

George Gregan (scrum half)
Toshiaki Hirose (wing)
Michael Leitch (flanker)
Andy Farrell/Steve Borthwick (centre/lock)
John Roe (No.8)

He inherited Gregan as Captain at the Wallabies and the Brumbies. Borthwick was England captain, and had led Bath, when Jones named him alongside Farrell.

Ironically, out of all the current England players, Robshaw is probably closest to what he seems to like in a captain.