England v Ireland, 5 September

by **George Carlin** Sun 30 Aug 2015, 8:07 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Englan10

England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Irelan10

ENGLAND v IRELAND
5 September 2015
14:30 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges: Romain Poite (France) Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
74 Won 47
8 Drawn 8
47 Lost 74
1,484 Points 1,056

B. Recent Form

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

27 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
9 – 20 to England

19 March 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
24 – 8 to Ireland

27 February 2010
Twickenham, London
16 – 20 to Ireland

C. Teams

ENGLAND
England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Michae13

England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Michae13

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
06. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
08. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)

IRELAND
England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Michae12

England v Ireland, 5 September - Page 9 Michae12

01. Jack McGrath (St. Marys College/Leinster)
02. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
05. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) (capt)
06. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
07. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
08. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

09. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

by Guest Sat 05 Sep 2015, 5:57 pm

thomh wrote:Well yes but it would have been a warm up for everyone else as well. Obviously we wouldn't have beaten everyone else if they were all at their peak. It's not like the claim was that we would also have beaten NZ.

The thing about warm ups is that they are less predictable than other Test games. Different coaches are looking for different things in warm up games, and winning isn't always the priority. For this game I would say that England needed a win. They are in a tough group, and they will want to hit that group having built up a bit of momentum. Momentum they can build on before taking on Wales and Australia.

by eirebilly Sat 05 Sep 2015, 5:57 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Neither side really performed well. England looked much better than they did vs France in Paris. But that is not hard as they were terrible.

England's line out was better, but the scrum still has huge issues...! Again a few of the bench players looked better than the starters.

Ireland lacked the tempo they had a week ago in Dublin.

To me, Ireland need Henderson and Henry in together. They are proper menaces and get Ireland on the front foot.

by maestegmafia Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:01 pm

eirebilly wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Neither side really performed well. England looked much better than they did vs France in Paris. But that is not hard as they were terrible.

England's line out was better, but the scrum still has huge issues...! Again a few of the bench players looked better than the starters.

Ireland lacked the tempo they had a week ago in Dublin.

To me, Ireland need Henderson and Henry in together. They are proper menaces and get Ireland on the front foot.

Aye

Henderson was pushing Tipric for MOM last week.

Toner is a good set piece man but not as brilliant at everything else

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:02 pm

Dave "average" aint looking so average anymore. A lot of people on here and elsewhere are eating humble pie right now.

by eirebilly Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:07 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dave "average" aint looking so average anymore. A lot of people on here and elsewhere are eating humble pie right now.

I will hold my hands up and say that i felt Dave Kearney was average when he first arrived on the International scene but he has gone away, worked on his game and strength and come back one hell of a player. Massive congrats to him and on current form, he is the best winger Ireland have.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:21 pm

I think both scrum and line out were better than vs France, scrum still had issues but it looked like Youngs lost a couple of hooks where we didn't actually go backwards (I think George has his place now) and a couple of cheeky wheels that could have been penalties to us (and one by us that won us a penalty but shouldn't). Still a bit crap but better at least.

Lineout was better but still scrappy, much better with George frankly.

Breakdown and contact line MUCH better

For me- Brown, May, Ford, Youngs all very good in backs. Watson made some slips defending but excellent finish for his try.Barrit solid in defence but both centres quiet (JJ tackled pretty well too)

Brown immense in the air and making yards again and good defending, shame he got a few dodgy passes. He passed a few times showing more vision than usual but also missed an overlap and passed one forward.

May had a great game, actually chasing kicks, silly pen aside, and took his try and nearly try well. Don't like jumping into scoring though, it's dangerous. Was ok in defence too

Ford and Youngs combined well and controlled, looked for clever kicks and g=kept pace on the game

Farrell not so good off the bench

Wriggles good off the bench but shouldn't have kicked it dead at the end - if we had managed to score 7 points (with no risk as we were up by 8) we would go up to 2nd, which isn't much but would have been nice

Marler handy in loose, as well as he's played recently in the loose, but has to take some blame for scrum.

Youngs not having a good day at Hooker, failed at primary roles did some good in the loose but as an ex-centre I wished he'd passed backwards…

Cole had a meh game. Didn't see much in the loose and struggled at scrum

Lawes busy in loose, line out was ok with him. Parling definitely helped the lineoyt and played pretty well in the loose.

Wood and Robshaw had their best games for a while, but Wood has had a longer dry spell and had a slightly more impressive game, making yards for once. Robshaw vital as an extra receiver and emergency ball runner.

Morgan had a very good game, did his rumbling well. Billy and Launch ok off the bench and Brookes and Mako did ok too.

Overall good but our execution is still sloppy and the set piece not there yet.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:23 pm

Pretty good from England and few comments which I assume means a few are judging by highlights.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:27 pm

Agree with a lot of that cj. Thought T Youns was very good myself and cemented the spot we just lolked better in the forwards full stop. George was excellent off the bench as was Launchbury at the same time bar a horrible re take.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Agree with a lot of that cj. Thought T Youns was very good myself and cemented the spot we just lolked better in the forwards full stop. George was excellent off the bench as was Launchbury at the same time bar a horrible re take.

Yeah, completely misjudged where the ball would end up! To be fair though, it was the only time Zebo actually managed to catch anything in the air, so maybe he was expecting a knock on there Wink

by pledgeX Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:36 pm

Much more positive game from England today. Lineout was shaky to start with but did improve, the stats will flatter that department though as a few of them were very scrappy/lucky.

The backrow as a unit looked a lot better and I think Wood has cemented his place ahead of Haskell. Mike Brown played a blinder too with some fantastic takes.

Based on today I think our main concern is the scrum. I don't know why it's gone backwards either seeing as our pack has been settled for quite some time. I think Hartley is a better scrummager than Youngs, but not enough to blame it on Youngs entirely. Any scrum experts able to shed any light on what's going wrong?

by Sin é Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:50 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dave "average" aint looking so average anymore. A lot of people on here and elsewhere are eating humble pie right now.

The bar has been lowered a good bit since Schmidt has come in . Smile

by asoreleftshoulder Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dave "average" aint looking so average anymore. A lot of people on here and elsewhere are eating humble pie right now.

The bar has been lowered a good bit since Schmidt has come in .

Schmidt must have started digging cos Kidney left the bar on the ground.

by Geordie Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:53 pm

I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 05 Sep 2015, 6:55 pm

Reading reports, the squad hasn't done too much set piece and have concentrating more on conditioning and ball skills. I imagine they'll start hammering it now.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

Trying different approaches, seeing if they work? Trying to cut free? It is still a warm up match, it's at least partly for trialling things

by SimonofSurrey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:05 pm

A very strange occasion. England really had to win - they could not have afforded to go into the home RWC with three horribly tough group games on the back of a home defeat. Ireland, however, probably just wanted to play well and try a few things. On balance, probably about 6 out of 10 for both sides, then, but an entertaining game with some nice touches from both teams.

It's a little bizarre to see England enter the RWC with a potentially dangerous and exciting set of try scoring backs, but with some concerns about whether our pack can win enough ball, including our own, to set them loose. We lost two scrums against the head today, just about won our own ball at the lineout while barely threatening a single Irish one, and conceded soft possession from restarts by both sides.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:22 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think both scrum and line out were better than vs France, scrum still had issues but it looked like Youngs lost a couple of hooks where we didn't actually go backwards

Maybe it is because i am biased, but I saw a very different event.

We lost two scrums against the head - one with Youngs on when we were shunted backwards. One when George was on when he hooked it but one of the second rows kicked it back to ireland. There was also a scrum where that happened with Youngs but he managed to rehook it and we retained the ball.

by donglewood Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:25 pm

Geez guys, the England scrum resembled ours today! Some ordinary tackling by the Irish though, thought it was going to blow out there for a while.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:26 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote: just about won our own ball at the lineout while barely threatening a single Irish one,

Except the one we stole of course from Parling right in front of POC

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:32 pm

donglewood wrote:Geez guys, the England scrum resembled ours today! Some ordinary tackling by the Irish though, thought it was going to blow out there for a while.

Ours being the very impressive recent 1 by Aus? You an Aussie?

by Heaf Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:47 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote: ...

Wriggles good off the bench but shouldn't have kicked it dead at the end - if we had managed to score 7 points (with no risk as we were up by 8) we would go up to 2nd, which isn't much but would have been nice ...

Actually I think it was the correct call as why play on and risk injuries when the game was won?

by lostinwales Sat 05 Sep 2015, 7:56 pm

There is an interesting interview with Tom Wood in the Independent today. One of the things coming out of it is the work they are doing on the players to make sure they are right on the day they play Fiji. Not now, but 2 weeks time. There is always the doubt in the meantime that somehow they will be prepped 'wrong' - too much gym work etc, But I'd guess that this is an area that Lancaster, with help from that cycling guy they were working with, will get right.

There are of course so many things that can go wrong, but I'd guess that the England that turns up for the match against Fiji will be as well conditioned as any English team has ever been.

The fun stuff was the 6000 calories he has to consume every day, and what he had to say about the role of the back row and 'not having a proper fetcher'

“I’ve always said that a back-row unit is about balance,” he argues. “When I look at people who carry the tag of ‘natural 7s’ – Justin Tipuric [the Welsh open-side who played so impressively against Ireland last weekend] or Michael Hooper [the exceptional Australian flanker] – I see players who do a lot of their best work in open field. If you play two such people together, as some teams may do at this World Cup, you may lose something at close quarters.

“You need a range of qualities: you need a line-out element, some ballast, carrying ability and a big tackling game, as well as ball-winning skills at the breakdown. Ultimately, it has to be about what works for you.”

by Geordie Sat 05 Sep 2015, 8:03 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

Trying different approaches, seeing if they work? Trying to cut free? It is still a warm up match, it's at least partly for trialling things

Quite possibly CJ, hopefully we get it right when it matters.

by Marshes Sat 05 Sep 2015, 8:52 pm

Going to sound like a broken record here but Ireland could really rue leaving out Trimble. Now we have Bowe off form and possibly in decline, our best winger in the last two years playing Pro 12 during the World Cup, and all the other wingers in the squad tend to play on the other side. Earls is the backup 13, and deservedly so, Payne has never let himself down

Henderson for me has to start in the second row. Toner will make tackles ,hit rucks and is useful in the lineout, but he does not have the same physicality, ball-carrying or offloading. I wonder is Toner even a weapon in the lineout when every other team knows we will hit him for the big throws.

I also agree with whoever said to bring in Chris Henry, when he was in is the most balanced the backrow has been. With SOB at 7 and POM and 6, they are less than the sum of their parts.

To be honest I thought Ireland were poor and it could have been a lot worse. Fair enough it is a warm-up game and we might have been trying things, but the point of these is also to get the team up to speed and hit form at the right time, and Ireland have not looked like that since playing the Wales B team.

by doctor_grey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 8:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

Trying different approaches, seeing if they work? Trying to cut free? It is still a warm up match, it's at least partly for trialling things

Quite possibly CJ, hopefully we get it right when it matters.

An England pack simply cannot be pushed off on their own feed. Putting all the other stuff aside, this simply cannot happen.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:01 pm

I haven't seen the game but it sounds like we were bullied yet again.

I would honestly give both Ryan and O'Connell a few games in the second row together, and play Henderson at blindside flanker. We clearly need to have the most physical pack we possibly can, especially to make up for the lack of firepower in our backline. Ryan and Henderson will both add that in buckets. SOB at openside, he is still our best man at the breakdown, and Heaslip at the back who seems to be back to form.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:07 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

Trying different approaches, seeing if they work? Trying to cut free? It is still a warm up match, it's at least partly for trialling things

Quite possibly CJ, hopefully we get it right when it matters.
An England pack simply cannot be pushed off on their own feed. Putting all the other stuff aside, this simply cannot happen.

Given the balance given towards the mobility etc etc who would make that big of adifference given previous solutions as Wilson Attwood didnt really work as anticipated.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:14 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll ask my question again. We looked excellent when the pack just picked and went....small gains. Even Morgan not doing flashy stuff...just picked and drove.
Lawes, wood everyone who I've slated were doing so well.
Then put it out when it was on and we caused trouble.

Why did we seem to change all that in the second half?

Trying different approaches, seeing if they work? Trying to cut free? It is still a warm up match, it's at least partly for trialling things

Quite possibly CJ, hopefully we get it right when it matters.
An England pack simply cannot be pushed off on their own feed. Putting all the other stuff aside, this simply cannot happen.

We'll be fine. Would be nice to have an in form Corbs as an option though, and if Hartley weren't such a boobie...

by doctor_grey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:16 pm

Marler and Cole can't scrummage any more? Marler was never great, but Cole was a rock. Is he not fully recovered or really back to strength from his previous injuries? Perhaps Wilson and Hartley are really needed? Also Corbs, depending on his recovery?

In the scenario where we have the put-in on someone's 5 metre line, can we even rely on winning the scrum? Today's result says we have a 40% chance of losing it, let alone driving the opposition back. To me, this is an issue.

by wrfc1980 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:18 pm

The two we lost were a hooking issue. On both of those occasion our scrum seemed intact and relatively solid.

by Barney McGrew did it Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:21 pm

Cole is a shadow of his former self at the moment. And when you pair him with Youngs, that's currently an underpowered FR. Hence our problems at scrum time IMO.

by Barney McGrew did it Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:24 pm

And Youngs made winning our LO a lottery today.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:24 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Marler and Cole can't scrummage any more? Marler was never great, but Cole was a rock. Is he not fully recovered or really back to strength from his previous injuries? Perhaps Wilson and Hartley are really needed? Also Corbs, depending on his recovery?

In the scenario where we have the put-in on someone's 5 metre line, can we even rely on winning the scrum? Today's result says we have a 40% chance of losing it, let alone driving the opposition back. To me, this is an issue.

Marler has been one of the best LHs in the world until the match vs Ireland this 6N…
Would love Corbs to get his form back, but he's been pretty dire since coming back from injury. Cole also back from injury, will do better, but I'd start Wilson against Fiji

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:26 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:And Youngs made winning our LO a lottery today.

100% was it.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:And Youngs made winning our LO a lottery today.

100% was it.

100% largely helped by rescue play by Parling and the other (all 4 of them) good jumping options. The throwing was not Youngs' best

by Exiled Gael Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I haven't seen the game but it sounds like we were bullied yet again.

I would honestly give both Ryan and O'Connell a few games in the second row together, and play Henderson at blindside flanker. We clearly need to have the most physical pack we possibly can, especially to make up for the lack of firepower in our backline. Ryan and Henderson will both add that in buckets. SOB at openside, he is still our best man at the breakdown, and Heaslip at the back who seems to be back to form.

I think you are Marshes are right about the need for changes. Something just isn't quite right in the pack. I'm a big fan of Ryan. I think he is worth a shot for the Italy match. I just think Henderson has something about him,pure animal aggression at the breakdown which no one else is bringing to the party at the moment. It could be that in these matches nothing is really on the line for POM, Heaslip and SOB because they are clearly going to be in the squad. Hopefully that will change come the competition. But POM in particular should have some sleepless nights because he is close to losing his place. I don't think he's quite there yet though . If Henderson continues he might just force his way into the side. And there is the Henry factor. He is probably the least individually talented player but does he ensure that the backrow is at least the sum of its parts or more? I agree with marshes- they were collectively poor today, individually Healsip may have been passable.

by Barney McGrew did it Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:31 pm

Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:31 pm

I dont really understand questioning the pack to be honest especially the front 5. There s no real obvious guys missed out who would substancially improve out set pieces; maybe Kitchener for lineouts not many others who would be obvious to me anyway.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:34 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

He didn't throw well today… I can't see how you'd think that from what actually happened rather than the stats.

by Barney McGrew did it Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:37 pm

No he didn't. And no he didn't. And he can't pass. Have him coming off the bench.

by HongKongCherry Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:43 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

He didn't throw well today… I can't see how you'd think that from what actually happened rather than the stats.

Spot on CJ, Young's may have completed his throws but there was little or no attacking ball from it. He was vastly better than the last game but he is still just not good enough. It was notable how much quick ball we won once George came on and he must start against Fiji; notnthat Bomber will see it that way...

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:43 pm

He threw well today given he was against one of the best lineout forwards in poc and Toner he was fine. All straight all on target for me no under or over throws that I can currently think of. Good challenges by Ireland yes but wasnt that down to the fact they re actually rather good?

by doctor_grey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:44 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Marler and Cole can't scrummage any more? Marler was never great, but Cole was a rock. Is he not fully recovered or really back to strength from his previous injuries? Perhaps Wilson and Hartley are really needed? Also Corbs, depending on his recovery?

In the scenario where we have the put-in on someone's 5 metre line, can we even rely on winning the scrum? Today's result says we have a 40% chance of losing it, let alone driving the opposition back. To me, this is an issue.

Marler has been one of the best LHs in the world until the match vs Ireland this 6N…
Would love Corbs to get his form back, but he's been pretty dire since coming back from injury. Cole also back from injury, will do better, but I'd start Wilson against Fiji

I like Marler (excepting the hair), but I don't think he is a lights-out scrummager. I think we have to start with a solid foundation, and if we have trouble in the scrum and lineout, we have major issues. An in-form Cole and Corbs would be fantastic, but we don't know if their best days are gone or not. Too late now, but for me, I would have preferred starting Props to include Marler and Wilson.

In the big picture I have been concerned for quite a while about the number of players coming back from injury who we are going to rely on to be near their best. It a bit of a crapshot and we might not be doing the players any good either.

by **Notch** Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:44 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I haven't seen the game but it sounds like we were bullied yet again.

I would honestly give both Ryan and O'Connell a few games in the second row together, and play Henderson at blindside flanker. We clearly need to have the most physical pack we possibly can, especially to make up for the lack of firepower in our backline. Ryan and Henderson will both add that in buckets. SOB at openside, he is still our best man at the breakdown, and Heaslip at the back who seems to be back to form.

The players selected can be much more physical than they were. Everyone seemed like they were going through the motions for the entire first half and there was little in the way of aggression. We ceded the collisions and stood off their back line. Sexton continued on from the Wales game in looking unsure when to shoot and when to stand off, Bowe was even worse and was all over the place positionally. Overall our defensive shape was very narrow- strange given we knew they wanted to get their wings into the game.

But the forwards maybe need just one or two changes and a rocket up their arses. Just little in the way of aggression and intent from 1 to 15.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:48 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

He didn't throw well today… I can't see how you'd think that from what actually happened rather than the stats.

Spot on CJ, Young's may have completed his throws but there was little or no attacking ball from it. He was vastly better than the last game but he is still just not good enough. It was notable how much quick ball we won once George came on and he must start against Fiji; notnthat Bomber will see it that way...

With Launchbury who doesnt get thrown to as well. Where did Youngs as thrower go wrong? I ve said before his quality aint as good as Hartley but given we took all the lineouts and he was quality in the loose hesnot going to the bench surely?

by ChequeredJersey Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

He didn't throw well today… I can't see how you'd think that from what actually happened rather than the stats.

Spot on CJ, Young's may have completed his throws but there was little or no attacking ball from it. He was vastly better than the last game but he is still just not good enough. It was notable how much quick ball we won once George came on and he must start against Fiji; notnthat Bomber will see it that way...

With Launchbury who doesnt get thrown to as well. Where did Youngs as thrower go wrong? I ve said before his quality aint as good as Hartley but given we took all the lineouts and he was quality in the loose hesnot going to the bench surely?

Several balls were high or low. Could, in theory, be due to the timings of the caller, but our ball-jumpers heights were all wrong

by The Great Aukster Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:55 pm

Exiled Gael wrote:
Notch wrote:For Ireland;

The Good
Dave Kearney, Jared Payne, Jamie Heaslip, Rory Best, Mike Ross, Jack McGrath
The Rusty But I expect to Improve
Simon Zebo, Robbie Henshaw, Jonny Sexton, Conor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony
The Bad
Tommy Bowe

It's really only Bowe I have serious reservations over. I think the centre partnership showed why they are first choice- they are both good hard runners, they both pass the ball very well, they are so nailed on you can hang your hat on it. The pack over all, not aggressive enough, not physical enough, looks off the pace. Individual errors in defence and a passive defensive system were major worries when we didn't have the ball which just makes you wonder about Trimble and how much he could add in that department.

I would more or less agree. Payne did well enough today but he has to stop running across the pitch because all he is doing is cutting down the space for the wingers. Henshaw's positional play today was really poor- he continual stood too narrow and exposed the rest of the backline. Sexton's leadership was poor in that regard. However, to suggest, as someone else did, that Earls should come in because of his 'leadership in defence' is an absolute contradiction in terms.

My worry was the pack. Toner, SOB and POM were anonymous today. With Henderson playing so well I think of those those guys should miss out. But we were so slow to the breakdown, there was a real lack of urgency all over the pitch. Ireland looked like they were playing a friendly while England looked like they were in a match with something on the line. I can understand that we need to peak later than England, perhaps it is understandable that we weren't anywhere near as sharp as them. I still expected better.

Agree exiled Gael. Everyone seems to question Payne who had a good game today (with some lovely timed passes to release the wingers), and ignore Henshaw who was very mediocre. In truth I was wondering about when Henshaw was last outstanding and apart from the try against England I was going as far back as the win over South Africa.

It looked to me that there were far too many players worried about getting injured and falling off tackles as a result. I agree with Notch about Bowe who was seriously blunt in everything he did. I would also lump Toner, SOB and POM into the self preservation society.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 9:58 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Today he won the lottery, but his LOs were a mess, and on another day we could have lost more than we won. He's a risk we really could do without.

Yes the guy who is the best in the prem and threw really quite well is a lottery.If Hartley was about no problem until then he answered the critics today.

He didn't throw well today… I can't see how you'd think that from what actually happened rather than the stats.

Spot on CJ, Young's may have completed his throws but there was little or no attacking ball from it. He was vastly better than the last game but he is still just not good enough. It was notable how much quick ball we won once George came on and he must start against Fiji; notnthat Bomber will see it that way...

With Launchbury who doesnt get thrown to as well. Where did Youngs as thrower go wrong? I ve said before his quality aint as good as Hartley but given we took all the lineouts and he was quality in the loose hesnot going to the bench surely?

Fair enough didnt see i that way ill have to have to have another watch.

Several balls were high or low. Could, in theory, be due to the timings of the caller, but our ball-jumpers heights were all wrong

by No 7&1/2 Sat 05 Sep 2015, 10:00 pm

Erm my comment messed up there,I went too high.

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