England v Ireland, 5 September

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v IRELAND
5 September 2015
14:30 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges: Romain Poite (France) Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
74 Won 47
8 Drawn 8
47 Lost 74
1,484 Points 1,056

B. Recent Form

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

27 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
9 – 20 to England

19 March 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
24 – 8 to Ireland

27 February 2010
Twickenham, London
16 – 20 to Ireland

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
06. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
08. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)


IRELAND

01. Jack McGrath (St. Marys College/Leinster)
02. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
05. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) (capt)
06. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
07. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
08. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

09. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

Notch they still won.

If you want to ignore home advantage, previous form, history, current form then yes you are correct.

Anyway we are not going to agree so we'll talk about something else.

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

beshocked wrote:Notch they still won.

If you want to ignore home advantage, previous form, history, current form then yes you are correct.

Anyway we are not going to agree so we'll talk about something else.

And I'm not saying England aren't going to win. In fact, I'm saying they are the narrow favourites to win. Just that I expect the game to be extremely close until the very end.

If predicting that sides that have produced extremely close, even matches under their current coaches will produce another very close, even game is ignoring any of those things in your mind then the only point you are making is that you have the ability to imagine slights were none exist.

You yourself even predict a close match decided by less than 7 points so I think you agree with me much more than you admit.

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

I'd love it if you're right about that but I can't see England getting that far ahead.

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

I'd love it if you're right about that but I can't see England getting that far ahead.

I think they can. I'm not convinced that Ireland are ready to take on England on their own turf, and win. Not just yet. It could be close, but I do believe the win is more important to England, and they they will throw everything at Ireland. I would feel differently if it was a 6N's game, and we were playing with a settled squad and a must win. It's a warm up, and if Schmidt has any new plays to display he won't want to put them on show just yet.

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

I'd love it if you're right about that but I can't see England getting that far ahead.

I think they can. I'm not convinced that Ireland are ready to take on England on their own turf, and win. Not just yet. It could be close, but I do believe the win is more important to England, and they they will throw everything at Ireland. I would feel differently if it was a 6N's game, and we were playing with a settled squad and a must win. It's a warm up, and if Schmidt has any new plays to display he won't want to put them on show just yet.

I think you're right and neither team will want to completely reveal their hands yet.

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

I'd love it if you're right about that but I can't see England getting that far ahead.

I think they can. I'm not convinced that Ireland are ready to take on England on their own turf, and win. Not just yet. It could be close, but I do believe the win is more important to England, and they they will throw everything at Ireland. I would feel differently if it was a 6N's game, and we were playing with a settled squad and a must win. It's a warm up, and if Schmidt has any new plays to display he won't want to put them on show just yet.

I think you're right and neither team will want to completely reveal their hands yet.

Absolutely. It applies to both sides. Just that England will be equipped with a kitchen sink. Ireland will save the Belfast sink for France

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:So has anyone got a score prediction for the match? I know teams haven't been announced yet but I reckon a narrow win for England 20-15 or thereabouts.

England playing at home with something to prove, a statement to make, and what should be their strongest side - England by 10.

I'd love it if you're right about that but I can't see England getting that far ahead.

I think they can. I'm not convinced that Ireland are ready to take on England on their own turf, and win. Not just yet. It could be close, but I do believe the win is more important to England, and they they will throw everything at Ireland. I would feel differently if it was a 6N's game, and we were playing with a settled squad and a must win. It's a warm up, and if Schmidt has any new plays to display he won't want to put them on show just yet.

I think you're right and neither team will want to completely reveal their hands yet.

Absolutely. It applies to both sides. Just that England will be equipped with a kitchen sink. Ireland will save the Belfast sink for France

Haha - very good! I doubt France will be looking forward to that!

I have visions of Bastareaud chasing after Sexton like a deranged Miura bull with a personal grudge, but little beats a Belfast sink

Here's hoping anyway!

Yep Bastareaud does a good impression of a kitchen sink himself but as you say a Belfast sink is definitely the king of sinks!!

Barritt and Joseph start in the centre for England as predicted.

(According to Telegraph)

Mike Brown, Anthony Watson, Jonathan Joseph, Brad Barritt, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw (captain), Ben Morgan

Replacements: Jamie George, Mako Vunipola, Kieran Brookes, Joe Launchbury, Billy Vunipola, Richard Wigglesworth, Owen Farrell, Sam Burgess

Brad Barritt at Pennyhill ParkBarritt back as England change five for Ireland

01 September 2015, 05:00 PM
Barritt joins forces with Jonathan Joseph in midfield
Parling, Wood, Morgan and Watson into starting line-up
Brad Barritt returns to the England starting line-up for Saturday’s QBE International against Ireland at Twickenham Stadium (2.30pm, live on Sky Sports 1).

The Saracens centre’s last Test came in a 26-17 victory over Australia in November 2014 before injury ruled him out of the ensuing RBS 6 Nations.

He replaces Luther Burrell as Jonathan Joseph’s midfield partner in one of five changes to Stuart Lancaster’s run-on side from the 25-20 loss to France in Paris two weeks ago.

Elsewhere, Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) returns to the right wing in place of Jack Nowell while Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) and Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) come in for Joe Launchbury, James Haskell and Billy Vunipola respectively.


Owen Farrell joins Bath Rugby’s Sam Burgess and fellow Saracen Richard Wigglesworth as backline options on the replacements’ bench, while Northampton Saints prop Kieran Brookes will also be poised to make an impact.

England Head Coach Lancaster said: “We are excited about this weekend and playing at home and it is another opportunity for these 23 players as we finalise our preparations for the Rugby World Cup.

“It’s great to see Brad back along with the guys that missed the Six Nations such as Ben Morgan, Joe Launchbury and Owen Farrell, who now have a Test match under their belts.

“It leaves us with lots of options both starting and from the bench.

“The players know that having made the 31 is not enough and we have seen in training how determined they are to be in that squad to play Fiji in the opening game of the tournament.”

England to face Ireland on Saturday 5 September
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
4. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

Replacements

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)

Burgess over Slade on the bench then... Parling starts and Launchbury on bench with Jamie George as backup hooker. How close to people think this is to being England's strongest team?

Well not quite the selection I'd have gone for but the only surprising one for me is May over Nowell.

Stub

Too soon to say whether this means Morgan is ahead of Vunipola, as Morgan could just be getting this start for the workout. Parling and Wood haven't been first choice for a while so again too soon to say whether they are nailed on now - will depend largely on how this weekend goes. Care behind Wigglesworth is a shame but not too surprising. Burgess needs the exposure so again it's too soon to say whether this means he's actually ahead of Slade/Goode/Nowell for the bench spot.

It's an interesting selection. My take is that:

- 12 of the XV are the likely RWC starters, barring injury or a truly dire performance on Saturday
- Parling and Morgan are being given a chance to prove their case for starting over Launchbury and Vunipola (and vice versa)
- Not sure on May - he might have done enough but Nowell was one of England's best backs in Paris
- Mako, Farrell and the aforementioned Vunipola and Launchbury aside, the remaining bench players are being given a chance to make their case to be in the RWC bench. Wilson is almost certainly ahead of Brookes, Webber's international experience probably puts him ahead of George for now and Burgess has to show he can offer more than Slade.

Oh, and I hope Care did enough last week to show that he's the better bench option to change a game up.

Interesting to see England pick so many first choice players... Looks like this is going to be a titanic game, unless Schmidt decides to pick his second team.

England 27 Ireland 15

RubyGuby wrote:England 27 Ireland 15

Could be more...!

I don't think Schmidt really wants to let all of his guns loose at once until the competition actually starts.  England are in a different position going into a group with Wales, Australia and Fiji.  You can't go into a group like that not full firing.  For Ireland our big group game against France is the last game of our group stage.  The hardest match before it is Italy.  I'm not sure we are going to see first choice Ireland for this warm up game, Schmidt can afford to be a bit more cute about selection at this stage than England.

Let's look who Schmidt picks before suggesting more as they dismantled England with relative ease last time out

Artful_Dodger wrote:I don't think Schmidt really wants to let all of his guns loose at once until the competition actually starts.  England are in a different position going into a group with Wales, Australia and Fiji.  You can't go into a group like that not full firing.  For Ireland our big group game against France is the last game of our group stage.  The hardest match before it is Italy.  I'm not sure we are going to see first choice Ireland for this warm up game, Schmidt can afford to be a bit more cute about selection at this stage than England.

I think we'll still see some experimentation but it will be a strong team. If they decide to a handful of second string players game time like Cave, Henry, Ryan etc. those are still good players.

The only issue is if we go with our second string front row, then we could be in for a long day.

Not an exciting bench for the backs Farrell and Burgess unless he does a lot of decoy runs and Farrell passes direct to JJ

The Irish squad is strong throughout. We have seen that in their last three games.

For all the talk of experienced selections, its another scratch from bomber. Consistency isn't really his thing however beneficial it might be for the TEAM.

Well this is it now, lets hope for fresh legs and real progress.

Mark.

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I don't think Schmidt really wants to let all of his guns loose at once until the competition actually starts.  England are in a different position going into a group with Wales, Australia and Fiji.  You can't go into a group like that not full firing.  For Ireland our big group game against France is the last game of our group stage.  The hardest match before it is Italy.  I'm not sure we are going to see first choice Ireland for this warm up game, Schmidt can afford to be a bit more cute about selection at this stage than England.

I think we'll still see some experimentation but it will be a strong team. If they decide to a handful of second string players game time like Cave, Henry, Ryan etc. those are still good players.

The only issue is if we go with our second string front row, then we could be in for a long day.

I guess the second string front row started against Wales. First choice would be Healey,Best & Ross but I heard during the Wales game that Healey may make the bench?

stub wrote:Burgess over Slade on the bench then... Parling starts and Launchbury on bench with Jamie George as backup hooker. How close to people think this is to being England's strongest team?

Very close:

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Brad Barritt
11. Jonny May Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
9. Ben Youngs

1. Joe Marler
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Courtney Lawes
5. Geoff Parling Joe Launchbury
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan  Billy Vunipola

Replacements

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Joe Launchbury Geoff Parling
20. Billy Vunipola Ben Morgan
21. Richard Wigglesworth Danny Care
22. Owen Farrell
23. Sam Burgess Henry Slade

I like the look of your team Barney - hoping for a good display on Saturday. I can't understand why Care isn't at least on the bench for this one though.

A very strong England side with an equally strong bench. If we don't win this one at home then the wheels have come off. Just wish we had a more beefy hooker who could throw a rugby ball.

stub wrote:I like the look of your team Barney - hoping for a good display on Saturday. I can't understand why Care isn't at least on the bench for this one though.

I think Care has secured pole position as replacement - this is Wiggy's chance to show whether he can have the same impact.

I think Wiggy is a traditional 9 who could play 10 or 15 if asked Poorfour. He has good hands and a decent boot on him. Definitely not a centre or wing though

RubyGuby wrote:I think Wiggy is a traditional 9 who could play 10 or 15 if asked Poorfour. He has good hands and a decent boot on him. Definitely not a centre or wing though

Not sure what you're getting at there. Wiggy has played 10 in the (distant) past, couldn't see him play 15 and not sure why anyone would consider him a centre.

Care is similar in terms of position - he could run things from 10 (but can't kick goals), but can't see him in any other position. He doesn't have as good a boot but has a better running game and can run the game from 9 in the French style.

Wiggy won't do anything disastrous but equally won't change a game. He can manage a narrow lead and possibly help turn around a small deficit. Care might do something utterly disastrous (probably a loose kick or chargedown that gives the opposition attacking position), but he's more likely to find an unexpected gap and spark an attack.

It seems to me that if England expect forward dominance, Wiggy's yer man. If it's a bit more touch and go, it should be Care.

It's a shame that there is only one distributor in the backs. This piles the pressure on Ford to do essentially all the creating. Ireland will kick lots I guess, and England's centres can't share the burden of kicking back if necessary either. It's entirely possible that Farrell will come on at IC and Burgess at OC.

DaveM wrote:It's a shame that there is only one distributor in the backs. This piles the pressure on Ford to do essentially all the creating. Ireland will kick lots I guess, and England's centres can't share the burden of kicking back if necessary either. It's entirely possible that Farrell will come on at IC and Burgess at OC.  

Wiggles at SH probably has the best box kicking game, so it's likely he would come on to balance the lack of a midfield options with the boot.

Still it was telling that our best backs performance by far came with three fly halves on the pitch abd Wigglesworth at 10.

I wonder if that style of backline is being saved for the tournament now.

maestegmafia wrote:The Irish squad is strong throughout. We have seen that in their last three games.

Except for the last one, where they were second best for the majority of the match against Wales, at home. Admittedly, Wales selected their best available players, but still, Ireland weren't impressive at all last time out.

Jimpy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The Irish squad is strong throughout. We have seen that in their last three games.

Except for the last one, where they were second best for the majority of the match against Wales, at home. Admittedly, Wales selected their best available players, but still, Ireland weren't impressive at all last time out.

and the game before when they only just beat Scotland at home. I've noticed that maesteg seems to swoon over Ireland a bit

I think Ireland are on a downward curve - Back row look less destructive as is POC alongside a lightweight 2nd row. Without Cian they struggle. Their back row is overhyped. Their first choice 9, 10 12 and 13 look strong but after that there are weaknesses. I'm not green with envy and they are heavily reliant on Sexton performing.

Not so sure Ruby

A pack with Healy, Henderson and SOB is not lacking physicality, and they've got the technicians with POC, POM and Heaslip too

if they get up a head of steam that pack will test anyone, and the halfback pairing is arguably only second to NZ for me. Its the outside backs other than Henshaw that I would question, think they lack a real game breaker there, but they can definitely win with what they have

What time is kick off....is it a normal 2pm - 2.30pm kick off?

2.30pm GF

I think the Ireland 1st XV is superb, but there are a few key players without whom things don't look quite so polished: Healy, POM, SOB and Heaslip in the forwards, and Murray, Sexton and Henshaw in the backs.

I'm not convinced that POC is in that category anymore, purely down to the big improvements made by Toner and the quality of Henderson. In fact I'm not convinced that starting with Toner/Henderson isn't the way forward, with POC coming off the bench to rally the troups if needed.

I think England will come through this weekend, purely because they need to follow-up that poor performance against France with something to boost the squad. Two defeats going into that nasty group would be far from ideal. I know Ireland are facing the same spectre, but coming off the back of a Championship winning season I think confidence will be less of an issue for Ireland, plus they have a more straighforward group.

I have no doubt they can win Bam Bam but a loss of either their 9 or 10 and the quality drops significantly - Payne and Henshaw are top draw for me. Healy has been out for some time and without him as a talisman going forward they are less destructive. It remains to be seen but I think last Saturday exposed a few chinks up front and in front of a hostile Dublin crowd for POC's last game that was a little surprising. In essence, once the blood and thunder dies down I feel all they are left with is Sextons tactical kicking which can be lethal as England know but they then need Bowe on top of his game as well. It should be exciting and a good barometer for both teams.

It's funny how Ireland's poor performances always seem to coincide with a referee that consistently penalises them for their constant cheating at the breakdown...

yappysnap wrote:Still it was telling that our best backs performance by far came with three fly halves on the pitch abd Wigglesworth at 10.

I wonder if that style of backline is being saved for the tournament now.

Spot on yappy, although sadly I don't feel this style is being saved for the tournament, rather it has been ejected for more pragmatic style. Given that Bomber had been so intent to find a ball playing 12, you would have thought he'd want to create that style of play, but with 36 not working as planned, he is reverting to kick and chase (poorly), defensive game with very little passing ability in the backs.

Still think Slade is currently very well suited for the bench. You never know if he gets a chance from the bench vs Fiji plans can change quickly. Different sport and a while ago, but an example like Michael Owen coming from the bench at the 98 football world cup and then quickly became an important player. You plan but sometimes a unlucky knock for one player is a lucky knock for the team.

I wouldn't read too much into these warmup games. To say that Ireland didn't have a plan B or C etc is a little premature as we all know how Schmidt like to keep the more important plays hidden until needed. He and Gatland seemed very chummy in the two games they went head to head and in reality only they know what they wanted to see and learn from the games. Lancaster would be no different in that respect in that the result of the game at the weekend, while a win is always nice, is less important than what he can gain from it. Everyone wants to hit the ground running and no matter what the results have been in these warmups I think the NH teams will be as up to speed as they need to be pre-RWC.

Cant imagine Sexton will be risked for this game. I'd start Jackson, he really needs to show hes better then his cameo against Wales.

Id also like to see Fitz and Bowe start. Hopefully they can play themselves into some form