England v Ireland, 5 September

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ENGLAND v IRELAND
5 September 2015
14:30 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges: Romain Poite (France) Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
74 Won 47
8 Drawn 8
47 Lost 74
1,484 Points 1,056

B. Recent Form

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

27 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
9 – 20 to England

19 March 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
24 – 8 to Ireland

27 February 2010
Twickenham, London
16 – 20 to Ireland

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
06. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
08. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)


IRELAND

01. Jack McGrath (St. Marys College/Leinster)
02. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
05. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) (capt)
06. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
07. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
08. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

09. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

Cyril wrote:
Aye, you can have him. Probably the most overrated actor of his generation (if not of all time). Should have stuck with being a shoemaker!

Would have to agree with you there, Cyril. Must be the histrionic English in him. Whereas Gambon, with that rich warm acting quality.... well, he's a natural Dub

Owens loves Ireland - I'll be surprised if England manage any turnovers and Cole stays on the field

Owens has good taste and likes the craic. Shame he seems so alone these days amongst his countrymen

Now of course he'll go on and let England run us ragged and do a cricket score on us.
Ah, we'll still love Nigel.

You're not having Daniel Day-Lewis he's also said he's English. What about Pierce Brosnan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're not having Daniel Day-Lewis he's also said he's English. What about Pierce Brosnan.

He's American.... well after he was English for a while.

Now though, in his mid-life easing off period, it seems he's become broody about his true Homeland again.

He was born in the same Hospital that I was (perhaps even the same room) and I can tell you.... it's in Ireland

Just going by what he thinks! Joe McGann? Paul McGann?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're not having Daniel Day-Lewis he's also said he's English. What about Pierce Brosnan.

He has an Irish passport and he lives in Ireland. His dad was also born in Ireland. What more do you want? He's ours, back off.

Daniel has left a message:

I'm..... (pained hollow gaze extended for thirteen seconds precisely) I'm happy (beginning to weep uncontrollably) I'm happy, I am (becoming stronger, eyebrows arching, rising solidly in posture) to be Irish when I'm in Wicklow, amn't I ------------------- and most dutifully blessed to be English (solemn pronounced theatrical pause) when meeting yonder Queen......

Don't forget the residency rules?

Heard an interesting nugget about Toner and his ball placement in the tackle. Allegedly, because his arms are so long, he places the ball a mile away from his body - making quick ball likely, and a ground steal unlikely (provided he isn't stripped on the way down- a past weakness of his). In his formative years, I used to think he was a daft option to hit running around the fringes, and he continues to look as awkward as possible while running. Those not used to seeing him play every week will constantly be expecting him to fall flat on his face, and understandably so. I think that's where most people's inherent doubts about him originate. But in reality, he's a fair good player and fair play to him.

kunu wrote:Heard an interesting nugget about Toner and his ball placement in the tackle. Allegedly, because his arms are so long, he places the ball a mile away from his body - making quick ball likely, and a ground steal unlikely (provided he isn't stripped on the way down- a past weakness of his). In his formative years, I used to think he was a daft option to hit running around the fringes, and he continues to look as awkward as possible while running. Those not used to seeing him play every week will constantly be expecting him to fall flat on his face, and understandably so. I think that's where most people's inherent doubts about him originate. But in reality, he's a fair good player and fair play to him.

All of which makes you wonder why he doesn't try to score more tries from the half way line!!!! Negligent eejit.

SecretFly wrote:

kunu wrote:Heard an interesting nugget about Toner and his ball placement in the tackle. Allegedly, because his arms are so long, he places the ball a mile away from his body - making quick ball likely, and a ground steal unlikely (provided he isn't stripped on the way down- a past weakness of his). In his formative years, I used to think he was a daft option to hit running around the fringes, and he continues to look as awkward as possible while running. Those not used to seeing him play every week will constantly be expecting him to fall flat on his face, and understandably so. I think that's where most people's inherent doubts about him originate. But in reality, he's a fair good player and fair play to him.

All of which makes you wonder why he doesn't try to score more tries from the half way line!!!!  Negligent eejit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S9W9xZikkA Joe ought to include some classic retro footage of MJ in his video sessions.

Yep. Toner just needs to try harder. His main weakness.

Cyril wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Cyril wrote:One thing that is puzzling me is why are both the photos in the OP of English actors?

Michael Gambon is Irish, born to Irish parents in Dublin before moving to England.

JASPER REES: Do you think of yourself as English or Irish?
MICHAEL GAMBON: I suppose I can't get away from it, I'm English, aren't I? All my things are here. I love Dublin but it's too small as a place to live. It's a tiny city.

Do you still feel Irish?
No, been here too long. I always had the Dublin accent with my mum and dad. It was a real working-class part of Dublin.



http://www.theartsdesk.com/theatre/theartsdesk-qa-actor-michael-gambon

Gambon seems to think he's English (and I guess he would know). He's always described as an Irish-born English actor.

It certainly sounds like he's serious, but Michael Gambon is well-known for winding up journalists, so he's not as reliable a witness as you might expect.

My only personal Gambon story is about the framed photo of Robert De Niro he used to carry everywhere and sets up in his dressing room at each new venue. It says, "To Mike, best wishes and love forever, Bob."

I used to spend many happy hours talking to him about when he worked with De Niro and the affection they came to hold for each other. Gambon used to range far and wide about his experiences with the Hollywood master. The photo, of course, is a fake. Gambon wrote the inscription himself. For all I know he has worked since with De Niro, but I'm talking about the 80s when Mike wasn't the international star he is now. It sums him up - he must be a journo's nightmare as you can never be sure that anything he's telling you is truth or fiction.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2004/apr/23/guesteditors2

Alright, if we win we keep Michael Gambon. But if England win he's all yours. Deal?

This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

I know, I think I was sick a little bit in my mouth whilst reading this love-in.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

That is easy, just ask the welsh posters to join in..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

That is easy, just ask the welsh posters to join in..

That's the easy part, it's getting them not to thats the trick.

Going to be a long day at the office for our pack. You don't really need a functioning line out, scrum or to win rucks to win a rugby match do you? Right??

Could be worse yappy. Tomorrow night I'm going to see an Ulster side who, through injuries and international call-ups, are unable to find a single player who has played out half or has been a place kicker in in a professional rugby setting. You don't need a 10 to win games... right? It's not like 10 is an important position or anything.

Notch.....not a truer word has been said on 606

yappysnap wrote:Going to be a long day at the office for our pack. You don't really need a functioning line out, scrum or to win rucks to win a rugby match do you? Right??

I have a feeling England will be fine at scrum time.  Also the breakdowns will likely be OK.  These players have done it before and should do it again.  It is the lineouts which worry me.  Losing even one lineout down deep in one's own territory - or deep in opposition territory - can easily change a match.  And we know the matches against Australia and Wales are likely to be tight as a drum.  

Even if England get through the upcoming match without losing a throw, which I doubt based upon past performances, it doesn't mean the problem is solved.  The need to bring Hartley back into the squad will increase.  It will be interesting to see how Lancaster manages.  I wonder who will become injured and enable Hartley to come back.  

The only Hooker I have seen who has the cool as James Bond mentality, the physicality, the scrum excellence, and the consistent throwing accuracy is my second son, the 17 year old.  He also looks really good in white.  If called up, he knows he would have to leave his girlfriends for a bit, but said that is not really a big deal and would just go out and get more.  
(Yes, this is a cheap plug)

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

That is easy, just ask the welsh posters to join in..

That's the easy part, it's getting them not to thats the trick.

In fairness, this match is of interest to Welsh fans, given our World Cup group.

Notch wrote:Could be worse yappy. Tomorrow night I'm going to see an Ulster side who, through injuries and international call-ups, are unable to find a single player who has played out half or has been a place kicker in in a professional rugby setting. You don't need a 10 to win games... right? It's not like 10 is an important position or anything.

You could just do what we used to do at school rugby games when missing a fly half, just get a lad that plays football to do it. Because they can kick, and to be honest that's all 10's really do. It's not like they have to tackle anyone even.

Notch wrote:Could be worse yappy. Tomorrow night I'm going to see an Ulster side who, through injuries and international call-ups, are unable to find a single player who has played out half or has been a place kicker in in a professional rugby setting. You don't need a 10 to win games... right? It's not like 10 is an important position or anything.

It didn't stop a similarly denuded Ulster side beat a pretty good Tigers side at Ravenhill not that long ago....

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This squabbling is so much nicer than the England v Wales threads, can we sort it out please.

That is easy, just ask the welsh posters to join in..

That's the easy part, it's getting them not to thats the trick.

In fairness, this match is of interest to Welsh fans, given our World Cup group.

Very interesting, almost more so than our own game.

Do England have any EQ hookers who throw to the required level (excluding Hartley)

It just seems to me have lots of good hookers (carrying, tackling etc)who cant throw.

Wasn't Gray at Quins very good technically?

We could have a scout out around the team, who fancies it? I bet Nowell is decent, he wants to be a forward anyway.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're not having Daniel Day-Lewis he's also said he's English. What about Pierce Brosnan.

He has an Irish passport and he lives in Ireland. His dad was also born in Ireland. What more do you want? He's ours, back off.

Anyone whos seen Taffin couldnt sustain the argument that he is legit Irish.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do England have any EQ hookers who throw to the required level (excluding Hartley)

It just seems to me have lots of good hookers (carrying, tackling etc)who cant throw.

Wasn't Gray at Quins very good technically?

Gray is very good, and not a bad carrier, but he's had a horrible couple of seasons with injury, as has Rob Buchanan, who was at one point on track to overtake him. As a result our primary hooker at the moment is Dave Ward, whose darts are as wayward as Youngs'. On the other hand, picking Ward (a converted openside) would have a good chance of solving England's breakdown problems.

Geordiefalcon what's the required level?

You're right. It's become an English tradition to not be able to throw well at the lineout.

Some of you stat fanboys out there could probably find out if Youngs' line-out percentages were actually worse than Hartley's, or whether it was merely perceived that it was the case. And then, for extra credits (maybe even in the bank....) the winner's score could be compared to other international hookers to see how bad England really are at this throwing thing.... I don't reckon England are any worse than top 5.

Since when has it become compulsory for the hookers only to throw in. This still surprises me a little. The wingers used to do it for the All Blacks a while back. Best give it to someone with a good pair of hands if you're struggling. I appreciate that people will worry about positional play but you have to win your own ball. Marler has good hands by the way - just a thought

Jimpy wrote:Some of you stat fanboys out there could probably find out if Youngs' line-out percentages were actually worse than Hartley's, or whether it was merely perceived that it was the case. And then, for extra credits (maybe even in the bank....) the winner's score could be compared to other international hookers to see how bad England really are at this throwing thing.... I don't reckon England are any worse than top 5.

The fact that LCD has a cap proves you wrong - the guy's got a season ticket with Specsavers.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Some of you stat fanboys out there could probably find out if Youngs' line-out percentages were actually worse than Hartley's, or whether it was merely perceived that it was the case. And then, for extra credits (maybe even in the bank....) the winner's score could be compared to other international hookers to see how bad England really are at this throwing thing.... I don't reckon England are any worse than top 5.

The fact that LCD has a cap proves you wrong - the guy's got a season ticket with Specsavers.

A cap. Singular. Probably off the back of Stuart Lancaster reading this forum and actually believing what some people write about club form being indicative of international form...

Jimpy it's not just about purely looking at the percentages. Some throws lost and won are more important than others.

T.Youngs has messed up important throws which has stalled momentum.

He's been good for Leicester with his throwing but not for England (that's the public perception, not just mine).

It's no surprise that Parling has been picked - he's in to help T.Youngs. Lancaster knows that T.Youngs has issues with his throwing at international level so that's why the selection has been made.

You talk about club form - T.Youngs is a good lineout thrower at club level but has been unreliable at international level.

Rubyguby could try Marler I guess.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy it's not just about purely looking at the percentages. Some throws lost and won are more important than others.

T.Youngs has messed up important throws which has stalled momentum.

He's been good for Leicester with his throwing but not for England (that's the public perception, not just mine).

It's no surprise that Parling has been picked - he's in to help T.Youngs. Lancaster knows that T.Youngs has issues with his throwing so that's why the selection has been made.

Rubyguby could try Marler I guess.

No doubt. Is he the only international hooker to have done so?

Jimpy wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Some of you stat fanboys out there could probably find out if Youngs' line-out percentages were actually worse than Hartley's, or whether it was merely perceived that it was the case. And then, for extra credits (maybe even in the bank....) the winner's score could be compared to other international hookers to see how bad England really are at this throwing thing.... I don't reckon England are any worse than top 5.

The fact that LCD has a cap proves you wrong - the guy's got a season ticket with Specsavers.

A cap. Singular. Probably off the back of Stuart Lancaster reading this forum and actually believing what some people write about club form being indicative of international form...

That's a bit harsh on the young LCD and lets face it his front row colleague Mr Francis seemed to do alright transferring club form to international. Early days but encouraging. LCD needs more time than 20 minutes in a forward team going backwards.

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Some of you stat fanboys out there could probably find out if Youngs' line-out percentages were actually worse than Hartley's, or whether it was merely perceived that it was the case. And then, for extra credits (maybe even in the bank....) the winner's score could be compared to other international hookers to see how bad England really are at this throwing thing.... I don't reckon England are any worse than top 5.

The fact that LCD has a cap proves you wrong - the guy's got a season ticket with Specsavers.

A cap. Singular. Probably off the back of Stuart Lancaster reading this forum and actually believing what some people write about club form being indicative of international form...

That's a bit harsh on the young LCD and lets face it his front row colleague Mr Francis seemed to do alright transferring club form to international. Early days but encouraging. LCD needs more time than 20 minutes in a forward team going backwards.

Not according to some...

Jimpy no he's not but we are talking about how England can improve.

Rubyguby I agree.

LCD's weakness at the lineout was known before he was picked. He was picked because of his other strengths. Showing the flaw in the English system.

Also it's not as if England have numerous hookers who can do everything asked of them at international level as Geordiefalcon said.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/3hfdd4/any_stats_on_hookers_successful_lineout/

Found this reddit.

George higher lineout stats than Webber and LCD. 88% compared to 82% and 80%

Still baffling why Lancaster wanted to leave George out. Was one of the form hookers in Europe last season.

The stats from the prem suggest that Youngs can throw, he's behind in quality to hartley for me and has some great jumpers at club level. Personally I'd be happy to go into Fiji, Aus, Wales and anyone we hopefully get afterwards with any of Youngs, George and Webber along with Lawes, Launchbury and not be nervous.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy no he's not but we are talking about how England can improve.

Rubyguby I agree.

LCD's weakness at the lineout was known before he was picked. He was picked because of his other strengths. Showing the flaw in the English system.

Also it's not as if England have numerous hookers who can do everything asked of them at international level as Geordiefalcon said.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/3hfdd4/any_stats_on_hookers_successful_lineout/

Found this reddit.

George higher lineout stats than Webber and LCD. 88% compared to 82% and 80%

Still baffling why Lancaster wanted to leave George out. Was one of the form hookers in Europe last season.

Totally agree, so it is rather confusing when people suggest that Hartley be brought back into the team - I mean, it's not as if his punching, kicking and calling referees 'fu**ing cheats' has ever impacted upon either his club or an international performance is it....

Englands woes with the lineout have been pretty much ever present since Borthwick went.
The hookers and lineout leaders can take some heat for it but really it gets to the point where the coaches (Rowntree) also have to bear some of the criticism for a continued failure to get it right consitently even when the throws are vaguely in the right place. Its not like England lack the bean poles and jumpers, sure Crofts disruptive influence on the opposition line out is badly missed but they've still got the bonus option in Wood and Lawes' athlecticism.

The criticisms og Youngs' throwing go back to his debut tests, nothing new again. The excuse then was he was still raw and new to the job as a converted center. Well hes had a few years now.
Yes they all miss some but its a specific skill he should have been targetting with the coaches to improve, but they seem o have missed on that as well.

All in its a failure of the set up to have progressed this area of the game. That the scrum went to Love sacks against France is even more concerning, thats been one area where England have generlaly been pretty good. Surface and binding aside I cant remember seeing them get that badly tooled with pretty much a first choice pack on the field.

Have to see improvements in that area and that it wasnt just a bad day at the office.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do England have any EQ hookers who throw to the required level (excluding Hartley)

It just seems to me have lots of good hookers (carrying, tackling etc)who cant throw.

Wasn't Gray at Quins very good technically?

Gray is very good, and not a bad carrier, but he's had a horrible couple of seasons with injury, as has Rob Buchanan, who was at one point on track to overtake him. As a result our primary hooker at the moment is Dave Ward, whose darts are as wayward as Youngs'. On the other hand, picking Ward (a converted openside) would have a good chance of solving England's breakdown problems.

but shouldn't we be solving that issue with our flankers

It then begs the question, why isn't someone like Borthwick employed as a specialist coach by England

I remember issues when Borthwick was there. That was half the criticism of him, didn't do it in the loose and brought none of his club lineout skill either. That may be me blocking out a really rubbish set of England years but I don't remember us reigning supreme then.

So are we all just making way too much out of it.

After all World Cup winner Steve Thompson wasn't the best thrower either....

Jimpy looking totally at player performance Hartley has been the best hooker for England under Lancaster. Didn't have a great 6 nations but still head and shoulders above the competition when fit.

Hartley's disciplinary record has been much better at international level than club level. At club level he's got one of the worst in the country admittedly.

Gooseberry you are right, the coaches should take at least some criticism for the poor lineout, if Youngs can throw well for Tigers then why can't he for England? Looks like bringing in Parling is an attempt to help Youngs.

Some players haven't been able to transfer their skills and ability to international level for whatever reason - the coaches should take some criticism for that. It's important for coaches to get the best out of the players they have.

As for Ward vs Youngs - Youngs is a much better thrower than Ward, Ward is one of the worst in the league IMO, strong at other parts but not throwing!