PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Welcome Martin Anayi, you are going to have your hands full.

Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17587.php#kJPQdWr0F2UKZ8DF.99

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

PhilBB wrote:The point you're wilfully ignoring is that the decision is made by the IRFU, not by Leinster. That is a major problem with this shambolic league - the IRFU owning and controlling four teams PLUS match officials.

It shouldn't happen.

Here, Here.

Why is it only the people living outside of Ireland can see this ?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:The point you're wilfully ignoring is that the decision is made by the IRFU, not by Leinster. That is a major problem with this shambolic league - the IRFU owning and controlling four teams PLUS match officials.

It shouldn't happen.

Here, Here.

Why is it only the people living outside of Ireland can see this ?

Because most are blinded by (or new to the game since) events from 2000 onwards. The system works for them and they benefit from it.

So why should they care? Look at how they view those people at PRL. They prefer the Gerrymandering Blazer approach, despite it obviously hindering Leinster at least.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:The point you're wilfully ignoring is that the decision is made by the IRFU, not by Leinster. That is a major problem with this shambolic league - the IRFU owning and controlling four teams PLUS match officials.

It shouldn't happen.

Here, Here.

Why is it only the people living outside of Ireland can see this ?

Because most are blinded by (or new to the game since) events from 2000 onwards. The system works for them and they benefit from it.

So why should they care? Look at how they view those people at PRL. They prefer the Gerrymandering Blazer approach, despite it obviously hindering Leinster at least.

As an Ulster fan we've been frustrated by the system but it has pros and cons to it

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

If I had my way, I would stick two fingers up to the scraps from the table that the franglos are trowing us and really put our league up on a pedestal. I would advertise it massively, play all our best players in it and use squad/inexperienced players in Europe.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

PhilBB, don't forget the winter break the CC players get, they do not play over the festive period, they rest them ready for the 6N.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/o-connor-frustrated-by-absence-of-leading-leinster-lights-1.2154804

PhilBB wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/o-connor-frustrated-by-absence-of-leading-leinster-lights-1.2154804

How refreshing, somebody from Ireland seeing the same thing as people from outside of Ireland.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

That depends on the individual players, those that play every game are usually held back for a week those that play a few games will probably get released. With Schmidt sticking tightly to the same team its usually the first 15 who don't get released

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

PhilBB, don't forget the winter break the CC players get, they do not play over the festive period, they rest them ready for the 6N.

Very true

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196517#RcslTIETxCqAOP4m.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196519#ISsIV6q5vi7EytoM.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196518#lhgU6ZlF2WQL6tLD.97

Pity the coaches didn't get the memo last xmas

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/o-connor-frustrated-by-absence-of-leading-leinster-lights-1.2154804

How refreshing, somebody from Ireland seeing the same thing as people from outside of Ireland.

I do love Matt O'Connors thick Dublin accent

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

That depends on the individual players, those that play every game are usually held back for a week those that play a few games will probably get released. With Schmidt sticking tightly to the same team its usually the first 15 who don't get released

Regardless of number of minutes, right?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

PhilBB, don't forget the winter break the CC players get, they do not play over the festive period, they rest them ready for the 6N.

Very true

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196517#RcslTIETxCqAOP4m.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196519#ISsIV6q5vi7EytoM.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196518#lhgU6ZlF2WQL6tLD.97

Pity the coaches didn't get the memo last xmas

Very clever, all those games were played a week before Christmas, not during Christmas, we have fixtures on Boxing Day and New Years day, show the line ups for those games.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/o-connor-frustrated-by-absence-of-leading-leinster-lights-1.2154804

How refreshing, somebody from Ireland seeing the same thing as people from outside of Ireland.

I do love Matt O'Connors thick Dublin accent

Ok, somebody from within the Irish set-up if you want to be pedantic. I meant somebody in the actual country seeing the wood for the trees.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Of course they are prioritising, the ERCC is the bigger prize what team wouldn't prioritise?

So where does the IRFU see the Pro12 in order of importance then ?

Hang on let me call them and ask...

I'd guess they'd see it like everybody else as below the ERCC

The point you're wilfully ignoring is that the decision is made by the IRFU, not by Leinster. That is a major problem with this shambolic league - the IRFU owning and controlling four teams PLUS match officials.

It shouldn't happen.

Why should it not happen? What difference does it make to anyone outside of Ireland as to how the Provinces are managed?
The fans are happy because the Provinces are relatively successful - 3 are usually there, or there abouts.

Sin é wrote:Why should it not happen?

Because you have teams and referees on the same payroll it is potential bias and a conflict of interests.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

PhilBB, don't forget the winter break the CC players get, they do not play over the festive period, they rest them ready for the 6N.

Very true

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196517#RcslTIETxCqAOP4m.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196519#ISsIV6q5vi7EytoM.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196518#lhgU6ZlF2WQL6tLD.97

Pity the coaches didn't get the memo last xmas

Very clever, all those games were played a week before Christmas, not during Christmas, we have fixtures on Boxing Day and New Years day, show the line ups for those games.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196524#YDTjIoKfk8xSwxFG.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196529#Gw7rV4l2egavQ63J.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196530#qoHDZq8gGv7fm3OR.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196523#QoC5O3gYL4LUVlMr.97

So you were saying?

Sin é wrote:
Why should it not happen? What difference does it make to anyone outside of Ireland as to how the Provinces are managed?
The fans are happy because the Provinces are relatively successful - 3 are usually there, or there abouts.

It happens in no other sport for very good reason: transparency and honesty. Having a business turning over 10 times that of the league competitors, and using it to skew the strength of the teams in the league, leads to an unfair competition.

Just as in the same way you were moaning about payments for meritocracy diminishing under EPRC, you are now trying to defend the exact opposite situation.

And that's before you consider referees refereeing their colleagues.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What decision was made by the IRFU?

Of when players can and cannot play during the season.

No its not, those on central contracts have limits of minutes they can play Leinster overloaded that and were left with a choice and got it wrong

So, for example, there is no ruling that says players cannot play the weekend after the 6N?

PhilBB, don't forget the winter break the CC players get, they do not play over the festive period, they rest them ready for the 6N.

Very true

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196517#RcslTIETxCqAOP4m.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196519#ISsIV6q5vi7EytoM.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196518#lhgU6ZlF2WQL6tLD.97

Pity the coaches didn't get the memo last xmas

Very clever, all those games were played a week before Christmas, not during Christmas, we have fixtures on Boxing Day and New Years day, show the line ups for those games.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196524#YDTjIoKfk8xSwxFG.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196529#Gw7rV4l2egavQ63J.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196530#qoHDZq8gGv7fm3OR.97

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196523#QoC5O3gYL4LUVlMr.97

So you were saying?

I appologise, what has happened to the winter break the CC players have when they go on their "bonding" holiday ?

PhilBB wrote:And that's before you consider referees refereeing their colleagues.

This is the biggest issue I have with our league.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Why should it not happen?

Because you have teams and referees on the same payroll it is potential bias and a conflict of interests.

Does that mean anytime theres a Welsh ref we should worry they might make a decision in favour of the Dragons?

marty2086 wrote:

Does that mean anytime theres a Welsh ref we should worry they might make a decision in favour of the Dragons?

Dragons players aren't employed by the WRU.

But, your point is correct in that the WRU shouldn't own a single % of the NGD.

marty2086 wrote:Does that mean anytime theres a Welsh ref we should worry they might make a decision in favour of the Dragons?

Yes you could. This is the problem I have with our league. But as Phil has pointed out, the WRU do not pay the players.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Does that mean anytime theres a Welsh ref we should worry they might make a decision in favour of the Dragons?

Dragons players aren't employed by the WRU.

But, your point is correct in that the WRU shouldn't own a single % of the NGD.

No but the WRU are part owners and employ players at the other regions

You forget the RFU employ their referees and players at the teams

The only solution is refs from outside countries which add costs

World Rugby previously have had Steve Walsh a kiwi reffing the ABs and refs take charge of games that can have an impact on their employers

marty2086 wrote:

No but the WRU are part owners and employ players at the other regions

You forget the RFU employ their referees and players at the teams

The only solution is refs from outside countries which add costs

World Rugby previously have had Steve Walsh a kiwi reffing the ABs and refs take charge of games that can have an impact on their employers

The WRU doesn't outright employ any player.

The RFU do not employ any players.

The solution is that the IRFU do not own the Irish professional teams.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No but the WRU are part owners and employ players at the other regions

You forget the RFU employ their referees and players at the teams

The only solution is refs from outside countries which add costs

World Rugby previously have had Steve Walsh a kiwi reffing the ABs and refs take charge of games that can have an impact on their employers

The WRU doesn't outright employ any player.

The RFU do not employ any players.

The solution is that the IRFU do not own the Irish professional teams.

The WRU pays 60% of some players and the RFU pay for the Elite Squad that's not bad for not employing them, outright is a matter of degrees

The WRU pay towards players they need released for international duty. They are in affect paying the region compensation. They have identified players they need for team Wales and pay 40% of their wages so that they can:-

a. Stay in Wales.
b. Have access to them.

marty2086 wrote:

The WRU pays 60% of some players and the RFU pay for the Elite Squad that's not bad for not employing them, outright is a matter of degrees

The RFU don't employ the Elite Squad. They make a payment to PRL for each player selected within it. So you're out there by 100% and 40% in Wales.

Whereas, in Ireland, they are 100% colleagues and IRFU ownership of the four pro teams skews the league unfairly.

If you want a genuine league, it should be transparent. The Pr'O12 clearly isn't.

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay towards players they need released for international duty. They are in affect paying the region compensation. They have identified players they need for team Wales and pay 40% of their wages so that they can:-

a. Stay in Wales.
b. Have access to them.

'There are 12 Wales players on dual contracts, which are funded 60% by the WRU and 40% by the regions. '

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32627787

Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pay towards players they need released for international duty. They are in affect paying the region compensation. They have identified players they need for team Wales and pay 40% of their wages so that they can:-

a. Stay in Wales.
b. Have access to them.

'There are 12 Wales players on dual contracts, which are funded 60% by the WRU and 40% by the regions. '

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32627787

Sorry that is what I meant.

LordDowlais wrote:Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

Which is exactly what I said though I did not mention that it was subject to agreement

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

Which is exactly what I said though I did not mention that it was subject to agreement

Yes but is disproves the myth that Welsh DC players will be limited to a certain amount of games throughout the season. I have spoken to players believe or not, I do not have any links to give you proof , but certain players want to play every game, that is why the DC have been changed, otherwise the only player that would have been on one would be Sam Warburton.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

Which is exactly what I said though I did not mention that it was subject to agreement

Yes but is disproves the myth that Welsh DC players will be limited to a certain amount of games throughout the season. I have spoken to players believe or not, I do not have any links to give you proof , but certain players want to play every game, that is why the DC have been changed, otherwise the only player that would have been on one would be Sam Warburton.

'But that is subject to change with the agreement of all parties, with the overall season limit of matches for club and country being set at 31.'

31 seems like a limit to me

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

Which is exactly what I said though I did not mention that it was subject to agreement

Yes but is disproves the myth that Welsh DC players will be limited to a certain amount of games throughout the season. I have spoken to players believe or not, I do not have any links to give you proof , but certain players want to play every game, that is why the DC have been changed, otherwise the only player that would have been on one would be Sam Warburton.

'But that is subject to change with the agreement of all parties, with the overall season limit of matches for club and country being set at 31.'

31 seems like a limit to me

Ok, lets go with it your way. 31 games for both club and country. Thats 5 during the 6N and 4 during the AI. so that is 22 games they can play during the season, that is already more than 16. But I will now quote you Gruff Rees:-

Coach Gruff Rees says the key is working with Wales boss Gatland - who has the final say - balancing the ambitions of the region with the welfare of the players.

“It’s all based around the individual needs of the players,” said Rees.

“Nothing is set in stone as such. There’s a degree of flexibility around what people can and can’t do.

“We will look after those individuals for their own welfare, but rest assured we have our own ambitions.

“While we would never flog players, it is about us winning games on a regular basis.”

So if lets say, Ospreys are in the play-offs and in the knock out stages of Europe, the ambition of the region may show that these players are needed for extra games thus the regions and Warren Gatland will work together to allow these players to play more games. So this 16 game limit is as I said, a red herring.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Heres a link to show that the dual contracted players are not limited to 16 games a season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-national-dual-contract-8911940

Which is exactly what I said though I did not mention that it was subject to agreement

Yes but is disproves the myth that Welsh DC players will be limited to a certain amount of games throughout the season. I have spoken to players believe or not, I do not have any links to give you proof , but certain players want to play every game, that is why the DC have been changed, otherwise the only player that would have been on one would be Sam Warburton.

'But that is subject to change with the agreement of all parties, with the overall season limit of matches for club and country being set at 31.'

31 seems like a limit to me

Ok, lets go with it your way. 31 games for both club and country. Thats 5 during the 6N and 4 during the AI. so that is 22 games they can play during the season, that is already more than 16. But I will now quote you  Gruff Rees:-

Coach Gruff Rees says the key is working with Wales boss Gatland - who has the final say - balancing the ambitions of the region with the welfare of the players.

“It’s all based around the individual needs of the players,” said Rees.

“Nothing is set in stone as such. There’s a degree of flexibility around what people can and can’t do.

“We will look after those individuals for their own welfare, but rest assured we have our own ambitions.

“While we would never flog players, it is about us winning games on a regular basis.”

So if lets say, Ospreys are in the play-offs and in the knock out stages of Europe, the ambition of the region may show that these players are needed for extra games thus the regions and Warren Gatland will work together to allow these players to play more games. So this 16 game limit is as I said, a red herring.

Hold on? So Gatland can decide when a player does and doesn't play?

The 31 includes the summer tour, Dowlais.

marty2086 wrote:
Hold on? So Gatland can decide when a player does and doesn't play?

It'll never get tested, but the point being missed is that Gatland cannot stop the player playing if he and his club want him to.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Hold on? So Gatland can decide when a player does and doesn't play?

It'll never get tested, but the point being missed is that Gatland cannot stop the player playing if he and his club want him to.

And yet the quote says the final say is with Gatland

Its not tested until its tested, so its ok for the principle to exist in Wales but the practise not to in Ireland

The players will be able to play 20 odd games a season whether Gatland likes it or not, which is more or less what they are playing now, if they need to play more then they will ask Gatland, although I think it will down to the player and the region more than anyone else as these sentences allude to:-

“It’s all based around the individual needs of the players,”

“We will look after those individuals for their own welfare, but rest assured we have our own ambitions.

LordDowlais wrote:The players will be able to play 20 odd games a season whether Gatland likes it or not, which is more or less what they are playing now, if they need to play more then they will ask Gatland, although I think it will down to the player and the region more than anyone else as these sentences allude to:-

“It’s all based around the individual needs of the players,”

“We will look after those individuals for their own welfare, but rest assured we have our own ambitions.

Which is no different to the Irish system

So the Provinces decide when the players play then ? Not the IRFU ?

So it is the fault of the Provinces for devaluing our league over the years by treating it like a development tool ?

marty2086 wrote:

Which is no different to the Irish system

Let's be fair now, you know that's not true.

LordDowlais wrote:So the Provinces decide when the players play then ? Not the IRFU ?

So it is the fault of the Provinces for devaluing our league over the years by treating it like a development tool ?

As you have previously said Gatland has to sign off on the Welsh players, individual needs doesn't mean the individual decides it means everyones circumstances are different are what it means

In the case of the IRFU, someone like Heaslip will play more than others because hes a freak of nature, Mike Ross may start more games than others but won't finish any. There are times the IRFU will flag up players playing too much but the Leinster/Dragons example was an issue of MOC not being able to find a balance and was left with a decision and got it wrong

The Provinces have no other outlet for developing young players and given that the Irish teams have been among the strongest in the league and won the last 2 6Nswhile developing youngsters it not been a bad strategy

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Which is no different to the Irish system

Let's be fair now, you know that's not true.

Since the system has not been fully rolled out in Wales in writing it is the same, the next few years will be the decider not to mention when Gatland moves on

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Why should it not happen?

Because you have teams and referees on the same payroll it is potential bias and a conflict of interests.

Following that line of logic - all the players are on the same payroll - how come the inter pros are competitive?
The Disciplinary Officer of the League is Welsh by the way - he was the one that fined Pat Lam 6,000 for saying Leighton Hodges is a shambolic and biased ref. I presume that money found its way into the back pockets of the regions

These figures of appearances also do NOT, include ANY play off games, although not many if any Welsh Teams qualify for them.

marty2086 wrote:

Since the system has not been fully rolled out in Wales in writing it is the same, the next few years will be the decider not to mention when Gatland moves on

You're conflating an agreement to extend beyond 16 or 31 games with an agreement that allows players to be 'rested' whenever.