Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread IX

by **George Carlin** Sun 14 Jun 2015, 8:16 am

Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread IX - Page 4 Patek10

Players In
William Helu from Wasps
Nasi Manu from Highlanders
Nathan Fowles from Sale Sharks
Michael Allen from Ulster
Jack Cosgrove from Worcester Warriors

Players Out
Tom Heathcote to Worcester Warriors
Grayson Hart to Glasgow Warriors
Ollie Atkins to Exeter Chiefs
Tim Visser to Harlequins

B. Glasgow (2015-2016)
Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread IX - Page 4 Flik_f10

Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread IX - Page 4 Flik_f10

Players In
Simone Favaro from Benetton Treviso
Grayson Hart from Edinburgh
Kieran Low from London Irish
Mike Blair from Newcastle Falcons
Sam Johnson from Queensland Reds
Greg Peterson from Leicester Tigers
Taqele Naiyaravoro from NSW Waratahs
Javan Sebastian from Carmarthen Quins

Players Out
Nikola Matawalu to Bath Rugby
Sean Maitland to London Irish
D.T.H. van der Merwe to Scarlets
Dougie Hall retired
Jon Welsh to Newcastle Falcons
Alastair Kellock retired
Murray McConnell to Nottingham
James Downey to Wasps
Tommy Spinks to Jersey
Euan Murray to Pau
Connor Braid released

by Weegie Wizard Thu 18 Jun 2015, 12:27 pm

I think Toonie was in the Scotsman earlier in the week saying 2 more were to be announced. Not sure if they are included in this or they are 2 proper signings still to come.

by nickj Thu 18 Jun 2015, 12:31 pm

Javan Sebastian, Jason Hill, Will Bordill & Gregor Hunter on 1 year partnership contracts

by Weegie Wizard Thu 18 Jun 2015, 12:40 pm

Not really sure what partnership contracts are. Bordill has looked capable but has quite a few ahead of him in the queue now. These guys will all probably get a decent level of game time during the internationals so hopefully a couple of them will make the cut.

Does anyone know anything about Sebastian? I think he is Welsh and has played at u20 level, is that right?

by cp10 Thu 18 Jun 2015, 12:42 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:Not really sure what partnership contracts are. Bordill has looked capable but has quite a few ahead of him in the queue now. These guys will all probably get a decent level of game time during the internationals so hopefully a couple of them will make the cut.

Does anyone know anything about Sebastian? I think he is Welsh and has played at u20 level, is that right?

Sebastian isn't tied to Wales and he's SQ.

glasgowwarriors.org wrote:
The 20-year-old tight-head prop played for Carmarthen in Wales, before being called up to play for Wales Under 16s and Under 18s, which resulted in him joining the Scarlets Academy.

Sebastian has been at the Scarlets for two years and featured for them in the LV Cup against Sale Sharks last season.

He is Scottish qualified through his father who was born and raised in Edinburgh.

by jimbopip Thu 18 Jun 2015, 12:44 pm

Well.....

The thing is the Tombola is such an erratic genius that it is far from easy to gainsay him.

The four players we have announced don't have me leaping up and down....but if Toonie reckons they have something then let's wait and see.

When you look at some of our signings; McGuigan, Paris, Downey, Isles who all looked like the business and didn't fit in and compare them with "lesser" players such as Lyle, Russell, Shrek, Weir then it could be argued that Toonie has a better strike rate when developing youngsters with potential than when signing players who could be considered the finished article.

Let's hope they blossom.

by Weegie Wizard Thu 18 Jun 2015, 2:25 pm

There's a good chance Hill will be our only number 8 and Hunter our only 10 during the world cup so they may do well.

by **RDW** Thu 18 Jun 2015, 2:46 pm

Personally I'd be very, very surprised if Batman goes to the world cup.

by jimbopip Thu 18 Jun 2015, 2:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Personally I'd be very, very surprised if Batman goes to the world cup.

Ever so often it's a good idea to look at these posts and ask ourselves, "Did I ever imagine I'd be typing/ reading that sentence?"

by **RDW** Thu 18 Jun 2015, 2:52 pm

jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Personally I'd be very, very surprised if Batman goes to the world cup.

Ever so often it's a good idea to look at these posts and ask ourselves, "Did I ever imagine I'd be typing/ reading that sentence?"

Especially when you consider Bane has a good chance of going!

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Thu 18 Jun 2015, 7:18 pm

If Cotter wants a power backrow v The Boks or Samoa then he should growth 6 Strauss; 7 Harley; 8 Wilson . I.e. the Warriors backrow that destroyed Munster in the final. No doubt he will go for 6 Blake; 7 bloke that plays with LI; 8 Denton. Big time meh on that backrow and will be destroyed by the Boks if not Samoa.

by **RDW** Thu 18 Jun 2015, 7:40 pm

Those who remember Wilson's most recent appearances in a Scotland shirt wouldn't use the word 'power' to describe him!

by Majestic83 Thu 18 Jun 2015, 7:45 pm

Agree with rdw, wouldn't use wilson and power in the same sentence. Good club player but not cut out for international rugby.

by **George Carlin** Thu 18 Jun 2015, 7:54 pm

Agree with all of that. Wilson did not look at home in the international game.

How underpowered our loosies looked in general (along with an apparent inability to recycle confidently through the phases) was the most frightening aspect of the 6N for me.

I am not wumming when I talk about Du Preez and Strauss being needed. That is the standard needed in the international game now.

Compare Billy Vunipola, Duane Vermuelen and Kieren Reid to Ryan Wilson at 8. Horror show.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:18 am

Did any of you actually watch the Pro 12 final ? Wilson pished all over the much vaunted CJ Stander. He was played by Johnson at 7, which he clearly cannot/does not like. Wilson is an 8 and a far better and more effective one than Denton. Personally I would rather we get him back for the Warriors and that Denton plays for Scotland for all I care .

by Majestic83 Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:44 am

Yeah Wilson played well in the pro 12 final and has done well since he came back from his ban. He carries the ball well at pro 12 level but its a step up to international level and he just doesn't have that extra power to be effective at that level. He played at 6 for Scotland so that he could use his power but was very poor and made very little yards in carrying the ball. He was also not effective in clearing out at the ruck and was often cleared out at the ruck.
To be honest I wouldn't pick Denton at the moment either but when he is in form Denton is a better and more powerful carrier than Wilson.

by jimbopip Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:55 am

I don't honestly get the "Denton has power" thing.
In open field running he is very dynamic: if we had a forwards sevens world cup he would be outstanding. Unfortunately when there is no space to exploit he gets picked on by the bigger lads and hands over his tuck money with monotonous regularity.

Also, when considering who to play at 8 we should remember that the last month of the season showed us that Bluto plays much better when there are other big hitters taking the ball on.
Bluto-Batman- Barclay looks good to me.

by **BigGee** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:14 am

Wilson has put his hand up do doubt and he did a pretty good turn at 7 when he came on for Fusaro in the semi against Ulster. In the final both he and Harley were playing 6.5 rather than 7 but he could definitely fill in there if required. Unfortunately for him, he is only going to get one warm up game to show his wares and such is the back row competition, he may struggle to make the final cut.

I am still intrigued by Harley's selection as a second row though and do wonder if there is a conversion process going on here (presumably he is eating steak three times a day). With Glasgow being light in the second row and heavy in the back, there is plenty sense to be made of that. Just how much bulk do we think he needs to add to be effective there at international level?

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:25 am

jimbopip wrote:I don't honestly get the "Denton has power" thing.
In open field running he is very dynamic: if we had a forwards sevens world cup he would be outstanding. Unfortunately when there is no space to exploit he gets picked on by the bigger lads and hands over his tuck money with monotonous regularity.

Also, when considering who to play at 8 we should remember that the last month of the season showed us that Bluto plays much better when there are other big hitters taking the ball on.
Bluto-Batman- Barclay looks good to me.

Bluto looks better when Bob Harley plays as well. On the subject of Harley - he is a 6 not a lock. He will of course do a job at 4/5 but knowing him he would do a job at 9 too ! A thoroughly honest, hard working and talented rugby player. Toonie played it brilliantly keeping him 'fresh' for the the final.

by **RDW** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:25 am

Again the phrase 'big hitter' and Wilson don't really go together IMO, unless you're referring to the incident that coined his batman nickname!

As said this before, but I don't think last season's form will count for much given the length of time before the next game. It should come when to training performance and form in the games.

That immediately puts Wilson at a disadvantage given he's banned for the first 2.

Also, Denton's performances before he got knocked out were very good for Edinburgh, and not just the flashy big runs. As I said though that was last season - everyone is back to square one now.

by **RDW** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:26 am

I also agree that Harley is a 6 not a lock. His style of play isn't really suited to a lock at all!

by Majestic83 Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:28 am

I think Harley is around 17st. To be an effective international 2nd row he'd probably have to get nearer to the 18st mark.
He could do with developing his agility I think as well, whether he is playing blindside or lock. He appears very stiff and uncoordinated at times.
Heard commentators mention a few times that Harley used to play at fly half up until he was 16. I would have thought if that had been the case he would have been better with ball in hand and had a better skill level.

by cp10 Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:58 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Did any of you actually watch the Pro 12 final ? Wilson pished all over the much vaunted CJ Stander. He was played by Johnson at 7, which he clearly cannot/does not like. Wilson is an 8 and a far better and more effective one than Denton. Personally I would rather we get him back for the Warriors and that Denton plays for Scotland for all I care .

Wilson started at 7 in the final against Munster

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=196641#LvT8Xc03hiBjslKt.97

by cp10 Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:06 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I also agree that Harley is a 6 not a lock. His style of play isn't really suited to a lock at all!

Harley is only effective as a 6 if there is a second row like Nakarawa or Ritchie Gray playing at 5. Once you take them out the equation you're massively down on carriers as Harley is an average carrier in the pro12 never mind International. If you have two work horse locks (J.Gray and Gilchrist) you need two big ball carrying players at 6 and 8. Whether that be Denton, Strauss or Ashe. Doesn't matter which way round apart from scrum. Wilson is light weight for 6/8 - effective in the pro12 but under powered at international.

by jimbopip Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:06 am

cp10, I usually really enjoy your more detailed analysis of matters tactical and technical. However, the numbers on the jerseys for the backrow in the final were pretty academic as it looked as if their technical brief was, "When they have the ball smash them backwards...When we have it smash them backwards."

I could be getting it totally wrong but I think it was about "winning the collisions" in the first twenty minutes and allowing our backs to run at them. Kind of like Gatlandball but with some added rugby.

by **George Carlin** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:18 am

It's tempting to stick Boab in at lock because he is such a strong lineout jumper but I would think Harley is giving away at least a stone to the likes of Richie Gray and Hamilton and is probably even lighter than the rangier locks like Gilchrist and Toolis.

by cp10 Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:21 am

jimbopip wrote:cp10, I usually really enjoy your more detailed analysis of matters tactical and technical. However, the numbers on the jerseys for the backrow in the final were pretty academic as it looked as if their technical brief was, "When they have the ball smash them backwards...When we have it smash them backwards."

I could be getting it totally wrong but I think it was about "winning the collisions" in the first twenty minutes and allowing our backs to run at them. Kind of like Gatlandball but with some added rugby.

Isn't that what all teams want to do? Toonie has given them the confidence, belief and desire to want it more than the opposition.

by jimbopip Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:41 am

Again, I could be in danger of sounding like Rab C here but if you look at flankers like Lydiate, Fozzie, Hooper, Barclay are they not primarily concerned with winning the turnover on the ground and providing good link play when in possession?

by **RDW** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:43 am

Gilchrist - 6ft 7 120kg (18st 12)

Jonny Gray - 6 ft 6 119kg (18st 9)

Richie Gray 6ft 9 126kg (19st 12)

Jim Hamilton 6ft 8 125kg (19st 9)

Swinson 6ft 4 116kg (18st 3)

Harley - 6ft 6 (16st 12)

Harley is certainly lightweight compared to the other locks

by **RDW** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:44 am

Btw, I'm not overly convinced by Swinson's weight or Harley(s height!

by tigertattie Fri 19 Jun 2015, 11:32 am

No way Swinson is that heavy!

If he is then he's completly pants at throwing it about the field of play!

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Fri 19 Jun 2015, 12:26 pm

You ever actually watched Swinson play rugby ? I seriously doubt it. A tackle machine who throws it around with some gusto ! I am 6ft tall. He towers over me by way more than 4"

by **BigGee** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 1:59 pm

Whatever we think, Harley has been listed as a second row in the squad and Toolis has been left out. The Scottish coaching team certainly seem to be giving the idea of him playing second row some serious consideration and at the same time Glasgow seem to have left themselves conveniently short of second rows. It will be very interesting to see where he winds up in the warm up games and if he has managed to put some beef on!

Him playing second row was talked about when he first came onto the scene, I think the feeling at the time was that he was a skinny lad and that he would fill out a bit in time. He is bigger than he was back then, but is he big enough, he is certainly good enough in the lineout? He has played there sporadically, but has been so effective in the back row that it is an idea that has never been pursued, until now!

by funnyExiledScot Fri 19 Jun 2015, 7:24 pm

I have no problem with Harley being tried at lock by Glasgow next season, but Scotland must be the only rugby country in the world who would experiment with a player out of position at the World Cup. For the World Cup, its a stupid idea. He should play 6 or nowhere else.

by **BigGee** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:00 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I have no problem with Harley being tried at lock by Glasgow next season, but Scotland must be the only rugby country in the world who would experiment with a player out of position at the World Cup. For the World Cup, its a stupid idea. He should play 6 or nowhere else.

Not a view that seems to be shared by the Scotland rugby coaches, for better or worse!

A tactical masterstroke, or a piece of utter madness. Time will tell and it gives us something to talk about over the summer in any case!

by jimbopip Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:12 pm

BigGee wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I have no problem with Harley being tried at lock by Glasgow next season, but Scotland must be the only rugby country in the world who would experiment with a player out of position at the World Cup. For the World Cup, its a stupid idea. He should play 6 or nowhere else.

Not a view that seems to be shared by the Scotland rugby coaches, for better or worse!

A tactical masterstroke, or a piece of utter madness. Time will tell and it gives us something to talk about over the summer in any case!

The problem there is he would be third choice at best. So, like Kellybrows, he seems to have gone from from first name on the team sheet to lucky to be in the 23. Is it something to do with the 6 jersey? If so can we give Frodo a run of games at blindside?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:17 pm

Perhaps they have Strauss down to play 6, with Denton or Ashe at 8. I still think having both Jonny Gray and Rob Harley fit and playing in tandem gives our defence real edge.

by jimbopip Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:41 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Perhaps they have Strauss down to play 6, with Denton or Ashe at 8. I still think having both Jonny Gray and Rob Harley fit and playing in tandem gives our defence real edge.

So no place for Richie Gray then?

by TJ Fri 19 Jun 2015, 8:59 pm

The problem is trying to get the right players in the team without playing anyone out of place. Tricky

On a related topic - whats happened to James Eddie???

by **BigGee** Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:00 pm

jimbopip wrote:
BigGee wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I have no problem with Harley being tried at lock by Glasgow next season, but Scotland must be the only rugby country in the world who would experiment with a player out of position at the World Cup. For the World Cup, its a stupid idea. He should play 6 or nowhere else.

Not a view that seems to be shared by the Scotland rugby coaches, for better or worse!

A tactical masterstroke, or a piece of utter madness. Time will tell and it gives us something to talk about over the summer in any case!

The problem there is he would be third choice at best. So, like Kellybrows, he seems to have gone from from first name on the team sheet to lucky to be in the 23. Is it something to do with the 6 jersey? If so can we give Frodo a run of games at blindside?

Having had a poor 6N, it is probably fair to say he was not the first name on the sheet prior to the squad being announced. Ashe will probably feel aggrieved that he was picked over him for the final, as he had looked on better form in the back end of the season.

3rd pick in the second row would still get him into the final squad and probably into the matchday 23. There is no guarantee that he would be in that position as a backrow player.

Our second row picks do drop off significantly once after the 2 Gray's. We know what Big Jim brings, good and bad, Swinson is probably not really an international class player and Gilchrist has not played for 6 months. It is potentially a genuine weakness for us, particularly if we pick up an injury, so I can kind of see why they are looking at this.

Harley is just to good a player to leave out and yet there is a good chance he may not make the back row cut, such is the competition. We do have a bit of a track record with this now and to some extent it has been pretty successful. Moving Rob Harley to lock is nothing like as radical as Vernon going to centre or McInally to hooker and they have both probably been judged successful moves now. It may be worth reserving judgement on this until we see the games over the summer and see how he does having had a good while to prepare. It may possibly be a move that he is keen on as well if he wants a future in international rugby.

by TJ Fri 19 Jun 2015, 9:03 pm

BigGee wrote:

Our second row picks do drop off significantly once after the 2 Gray's. We know what Big Jim brings, good and bad, Swinson is probably not really an international class player and Gilchrist has not played for 6 months. It is potentially a genuine weakness for us, particularly if we pick up an injury, so I can kind of see why they are looking at this.

Harley is just to good a player to leave out and yet there is a good chance he may not make the back row cut, such is the competition. We do have a bit of a track record with this now and to some extent it has been pretty successful. Moving Rob Harley to lock is nothing like as radical as Vernon going to centre or McInally to hooker and they have both probably been judged successful moves now. It may be worth reserving judgement on this until we see the games over the summer and see how he does having had a good while to prepare. It may possibly be a move that he is keen on as well if he wants a future in international rugby.

Good point. Makes a great deal of sense. Big JIm has played both lock and back row has he not - and Harley got a run out or two at lock for Glasgow did he not?

by **George Carlin** Sat 20 Jun 2015, 9:13 am

Surely Harley has to be one of our top 4 loose forwards?

by **BigGee** Sat 20 Jun 2015, 9:43 am

George Carlin wrote:Surely Harley has to be one of our top 4 loose forwards?

Players who can play 6 and 8:

Denton, Ashe, Strauss and Wilson

Players who can play at 6 and 7:

Wilson and Barclay

Pure 7's:

Watson and Blake

Pure 6

Harley

In the back row Rob Harley probablky loses out over some of the others in terms of versatility. Is he in the top 4 or 5 who will make the final cut, that in some ways is a judgement call.

To some extent though we are missing the point and VC seems to have already made his judgement. Harley seems to have been picked in the squad over Toolis as a lock and I imagine that is where we are likely to see him playing in the warm ups.

by jimbopip Sun 21 Jun 2015, 9:44 am

So, I get a Father's Day card from young Pipetto in which he has written,
"How did you ever play on the wing?"

He's certainly gobby enough to be a scrum half. steam

by **George Carlin** Sun 21 Jun 2015, 10:15 am

jimbopip wrote:So, I get a Father's Day card from young Pipetto in which he has written,
"How did you ever play on the wing?"

He's certainly gobby enough to be a scrum half.

by **RDW** Sun 21 Jun 2015, 10:18 am

What's the answer to the question then??

by **George Carlin** Sun 21 Jun 2015, 10:23 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:What's the answer to the question then??

"I took a cab most of the time".

by jimbopip Sun 21 Jun 2015, 11:50 am

Just back from training with the under 12s, jeez they're fast.

by funnyExiledScot Sun 21 Jun 2015, 6:39 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:What's the answer to the question then??
"I took a cab most of the time".

"I was up against this Maitland chap but he never scored any tries so I got the nod...."

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:13 am

jimbopip wrote:So, I get a Father's Day card from young Pipetto in which he has written,
"How did you ever play on the wing?"

He's certainly gobby enough to be a scrum half.

That counts to confiscate his Warriors hat James !

Btw only c.60 season tickets left in the East Stand for next season. North and Main Stand seasons all gone clap

by jimbopip Mon 22 Jun 2015, 12:34 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
jimbopip wrote:So, I get a Father's Day card from young Pipetto in which he has written,
"How did you ever play on the wing?"

He's certainly gobby enough to be a scrum half.

That counts to confiscate his Warriors hat James !

Btw only c.60 season tickets left in the East Stand for next season. North and Main Stand seasons all gone

Ah but I decided to let him live after he took my breath away with two moments of sublime skill at training. They drew cries of "Fijian" and "Dancer" from me. Pipetto knew what I meant but I'm sure the other parents think I'm totally mental.
Not that I'm biased , but if Pipetto ever puts the words "running" and "fast" together in a rugby context he could be not a bad player.

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