Which is worse: Djokovic's antics or Nadal's time violation?

I'm surprised he didn't get a point penalty as three is quite a lot.

He didn't used to do it very early on in his career - that was before he did all his pre serve routine stuff.

What Djokovic did was clearly worse in my eyes, I don't think that's even in question.

However Nadal taking time between points is more frequent than Djokovic scaring ballboys, which even any Nadal fan has to acknowledge.

Nadal does have OCD tics, which take up time, and it won't be easy for him to try and change that- but he must make a greater effort. The tics, the buttpicking, they all take up time.
I don't particularly even notice exactly how much time between points, and frankly it's a bit of an irrelevance for me, a few seconds here and there doesn't really change anything... but if they are going to rule it strictly they should bring in a shot clock for the players to see.

Murray in a Sky interview last week made an interesting point, after he was given a violation in a match, and he said it's very difficult for players to know the exact timings; he asked the Sky interviewers whether they were aware when they were exactly 25 seconds into an interview, and they admitted they would not know. When your mind is so focused, I can imagine unless you were literally counting in your head, it would be difficult to know exactly when 25 seconds or 27 seconds are up.

I don't excuse any of it particularly.Both guilty imo.  Rafa's time violation is more obvious and more frequent than most but Im also of the belief that umpires are now looking and waiting for him to do it... I could name other players (but I wont) that do if you care to time them but they are very subtle in the way they do it. Just notice how long it takes some to choose the balls they want to serve with. But I,like IMBL think that time violation is  preferable to bad behaviour, racquet smashing, yelling at umpires and ballboys even snatching and throwing towels at ball boys/girls I abhor . Racquet abuse was penalised once but they have stopped that.. But what ever ruling is applied for whatever offence, let it be uniform, across the board and no allowances made. The time thing is in the hands of the opponent .. he has it within his power to complain.. Its an ongoing gripe on 606v2 and it will continue to be .. but look further than Nadal

TV not good but still bearable compared to scaring ball boys!

Talking about Rafa's tics, I also noticed that he didn't have them, except that butt picking, when he was young and just started out, during 2003-2004. Back then, he would just pull at the back of his shorts and then bounced the ball twice or thrice and then started serving, very quick, no delays. I read that it was Toni who told him to slow down and think before he served, hence he added in the pulling up of his socks, adjusting of his hair at the side of his ears.

His tics now have become a routine to help him calms down before he serves and they're getting longer and longer and hence the TV. I do feel irritated at his tics at times, especially when he takes too long before a crucial service point. And, most TVs given by the umpires were at BPs that Rafa was facing, it's unfortunate, but then it's precisely because Rafa was facing BPs and so took a longer time to think or calm down and hence exceeded the time limit! It's very hard for Rafa to resolve this issue; perhaps stops thinking too much and plays more instinctively may help?

I would prefer the time wasting over the bad behavior any day of the week as a one off thing... So in that sense if you take this one incident of Djoko and compare it to one service game by nadal of him going over the time limit- than no question Djoko looks worse.

However, Nadals issue is constant and every match and I don't think Djoko's is.

I also think it's more on purpose and less because of the tics than his fans want to believe. We're in the middle of the same discussion elsewhere and I timed one service game (the only video I could find of the match) at 4-3 second set. Nadal does all his tics and usual stuff, bounces the ball multiple times and serves within 25 seconds or slightly over at 0-0, 0-15, 15-15. All relatively quick and easy rally's. He wins a tougher rally where Ferrer makes him run side to side a couple of times to go to 30-15. Not a brutal rally at all, but slightly tougher than the others. Suddenly, Rafa now takes slightly over 30 seconds to serve.

Wins that point in one shot, and at 40-15, suddenly gets all his habits done and serves at around 17 seconds.

Point being- he gets all his tics, habits out of the way in plenty of time or right at time limit. Only when he needs a rest does he go to 30 seconds. That is a conscious thing.

He doesn't get a warning at 30 seconds either so I have to believe he went over that time to get the 3 warnings he did... if that is the case then the umpire was more than fair.

@BLB notice also he does not have tics on the practice court.

I think it really is not a matter of gamesmanship with Rafa, I truly believe he doesn't know how long he is taking. As I say may be if one or two of his opponents actually complained to him about it it might do more good than anything the Umpire can say or do.. It is a sad affliction but I do not think he will be able to cure it so late in his career.
Tics are often the result of nerves...He has always admitted to being nervous I think it has become more obsessive over recent months though.

Speaking of which though have you noticed that Montfils is obsessed with his shoe laces !!!?

HN, don't derail the thread with laces now about Monfils, just cause Nadal is being criticized

Nadals time violation is sad, even worst is his scratching and digging, but still he ain't aiming his rage towards public/ballboys, trying to defocus the oponent a little, but I guess all are used to him now.

Djoko behaves as he does, it was another thread about DJoko animal bursts origins, and while he was the standard No:3 people did not mind much as he was fighting to be on top and get some attention, but he has got even worst since becoming No:1, totally how a No:1 should not behave, swearing at public, shouting at the box, smashing racquet's, etc etc.

Thanks god he has only 45 fans in the world, if he was more popular he would damage the Tennis future for kids

45 fans lol/

Nadal gets agitated not because he thinks hes in the right, but because he cant stop himself. His time between points is al to accomodate for his ticks which are an OCD thing. Djokos problem isnt a problem, hes human and he owned up to it like a man. Nadals thing cant be helped, hell juts have to either get to a point whre he can do it quicker without anxiety, or accept the warning

I so agree, he looks so embarrassed when he is pulled up about it. He is to be pitied rather than blamed.. I had a cousin with OCD its heartbreaking.
But do you not ask yourself why everyone here choses to blame him for what he does yet I have not heard one player, not one, complain about him. But the gripe will continue until he retires ..

Minor OCD (if that is what it is) is not that difficult to treat - people get treated for it all the time. If it was having a negative effect on his game, team Nadal would get it sorted, without a doubt - there just isn't room at the top in today's game to allow anything that has a negative effect.
Thus I think they feel that overall it does not have a negative effect on his game, possibly they think that overall it helps i.e. having more time between point helps more than the occasional warning hinders.

Djoko's behaviour can be poor as well of course - racket smashing is a particular bugbear of mine. I think they do still get penalised if they don't play the next point with the same racket.

HN, we can't ask ourselves that question, because we don't play with him and we don't have sponsors who tell us to shut up and not criticize other players or ATP will slap you one.

Im sure that Team Nadal know how he is criticised especially over the pant picking, its something Im sure for his own benefit they would like to see cured, but sometimes curing one thing can lead drastically to another. How do we know, that his current mental state has not been caused by just that.
For my part, he is the man I support, I wish it could be cured for HIS sake but seeing he has no problems off court Im prepared to bite the bullet until he retires. I just think it sad that he has such an affliction. I think that it is possible that all the players are accommodating in their reaction to him because they are a lot more sympathetic than the fans.Rather like having a friend who has a stutter

Its also a superstition thing, if he gets it sorted theres the anxiety that if he loses it hell lose his edge. Its the same with the bottle thing. Tennis is one of the worst things to develop repetitive behaviours and ticks, Nadals is just particularly bad.
But to be quite frank with you all. Considering all hes done for the sport, if this is all people can come up with then I think on balance we can forgive it.

temporary21 wrote:Its also a superstition thing, if he gets it sorted theres the anxiety that if he loses it hell lose his edge. Its the same with the bottle thing. Tennis is one of the worst things to develop repetitive behaviours and ticks, Nadals is just particularly bad.
But to be quite frank with you all. Considering all hes done for the sport, if this is all people can come up with then I think on balance we can forgive it.

Spot on

In no way at all are his "tics" debilitating, as if we should feel for him I actually don't mind you 2 as posters but the way you are quick to defend is very clear where your loyalties lie.

On another topic: Nadal pointed to a wrong ball mark to try and get the point off Isner yesterday. What do you think about that HN

But can we forgive Djokovic?

Josiah Maiestas wrote:In no way at all are his "tics" debilitating, as if we should feel for him I actually don't mind you 2 as posters but the way you are quick to defend is very clear where your loyalties lie.

On another topic: Nadal pointed to a wrong ball mark to try and get the point off Isner yesterday. What do you think about that HN

... so whats your point? I like nadal like I like a lot of players I dont notice his time between points and neither do most fans who arent pre disposed against him. Might I remind you to keep your points on topic and not directed at other posters.

No need to forgive Novak, he lost his temper, he owned up to it, fair play to him.

In these circumstances I will refrain from comment. True colours at last

But what about Truffin's point at 17 seconds between points?
He does all his routine in that time. So surely the other stuff is under his control?

Someone should tell Murray that the rule is MAX 25 seconds. You should be getting into a routine where it's 15 seconds and 20 seconds after long points. If you are trying to do 23-24 secs every point of course you are going to break the rules.

I would put a question mark over a couple of other players too..
But this old chestnut will rumble on until like they introduced hawkeye to stop line call disputes, they have a clock ticking away the seconds and then it will apply to everyone

Like delpo, murray, djoko, serena, aza etc.

Erhem.....I never said that

They are all bad but Nadal has a reputation for being the worst. Tursunov brought it up in a match vs dimi!

I personally get sick and tired of hearing about it frankly.
Nobody seems to do anything so why keep going on about it. It goes on and on
Still it gives the "lets have another go at Nadal" brigade something to do they missed it whilst he was absent. Novak and Rafa can take the bashings on here as is the norm. : But as I have proved on another thread there are some players one dare not criticise tsk tsk  

If Federer was the worst at this, I, as a mahoosive feds fan, would criticise him for this.
Rules are there and they are being broken.
Nadal fans seem to take it way too personally.
You should criticise those who repeatedly overstep the mark.
Getting warned three times in 3 sets is not good. Umpires need to admonish them for that and any player who doesn't follow the rules. Simple.

LuvSports! wrote:If Federer was the worst at this, I, as a mahoosive feds fan, would criticise him for this.
Rules are there and they are being broken.
Nadal fans seem to take it way too personally.
You should criticise those who repeatedly overstep the mark.
Getting warned three times in 3 sets is not good. Umpires need to admonish them for that and any player who doesn't follow the rules. Simple.

[b][/Did you even bother to read this thread from the beginning ??????????????

If you had you would have seen my initial post on this subject


I don't excuse any of it particularly.Both guilty imo. Rafa's time violation is more obvious and more frequent than most but Im also of the belief that umpires are now looking and waiting for him to do it... I could name other players (but I wont) that do if you care to time them but they are very subtle in the way they do it. Just notice how long it takes some to choose the balls they want to serve with. But I,like IMBL think that time violation is preferable to bad behaviour, racquet smashing, yelling at umpires and ballboys even snatching and throwing towels at ball boys/girls I abhor . Racquet abuse was penalised once but they have stopped that.. But what ever ruling is applied for whatever offence, let it be uniform, across the board and no allowances made. The time thing is in the hands of the opponent .. he has it within his power to complain.. Its an ongoing gripe on 606v2 and it will continue to be .. but look further than Nadal



Do you see anywhere where I excuse him... I do not..so please get your facts right for JC sake

Well, time Fed. I don't think he takes exactly the same time between each point. After a long point, both Fed and his opponent would take time to settle down and prepare for the next point.

It's the same with Rafa. If he hits an ace, chances are he'll take a shorter time to serve his next. After a long rally, both Rafa and his opponent would want to take a longer breather hence more time. The 25 sec is for them to prepare for the next point, whether it's taking a breather or adjusting their clothes, racket or whatever.

I don't think it's gamesmanship for Rafa, more like if it's an important point, he needs more time to think and calm himself. All these won't be an issue as long as he does it within 25 seconds; so the point that he sometimes takes 17 sec and sometimes he takes longer is moot. Like what Henman Bill said, if one makes it a habit to finish his routine within a shorter time, then after long rally or not, he should be able to play or serve the next point within the time limit.

Rafa has been adding more tics to his routine and that to me is worrying, not because of the time it takes for him to finish his routine, but that means he's less calm out there! I sometimes blame Toni for Rafa's predicament, for its Toni who wants Rafa to slow now before he serves and now Rafa has done that to the extreme. Also, why not correct Rafa from young about his butt picking? Why let it developed into an unstoppable habit when he's competing? I heard that when he's competing in golf charity events, he also pulled at the back of his pants before hitting. It seems that it's only when he's competing that he does that, when he's playing exhos, he hardly tuck at his shorts. He didn't do that during his exho and charity matches with Fed during 2010, whole of the two matches played!

BLB you and I both think that but I have to say there are those here who have no understanding of what it is like to have that affliction.. I have had personal experience of it in my family. I do believe that there are players on tour who have such an understanding and are sympathetic to it..BUT to some here it is something punishable by death !!! They neither understand what OCD is or care...If it is something he should be penalised for then sobeit but please can we have some consistency as to what is acceptable and what is not. The umpiring of this offence is inconsistent to say the least.. I KNOW FULL WELL that Rafa is as guilty as hell of this "crime" but so are others. Also shouting, bullying and throwing water bottles at ball boys and girls  is unacceptable and far ore serious imo and should also receive such warnings. Now Ive made my position clear as to where I stand on this point Ill move on
This thread is not just about Nadal.

P.S

If it is the unanimous verdict of the 606v2 jury that Rafa Nadal should receive the death penalty for  this heinous crime could you wait until after he has played Novak please

The Djokovic and ballboy incident is a non-event to my mind.

He didn't scream at a ballboy, he screamed and made a nearby ballboy jump. If the ballboy hadn't been there, I doubt anyone would have given the moment a second thought.

Novak's screaming doesn't really bother me. I think the racquet smashing is much worse. His hitting a ball in the direction of a linesman in the Karlovic match was completely unacceptable. He could justifiably have been disqualified for that.

In answer to the OP, I don't see a lot between the two behaviours. Both stem in some degree from a lack of self-control, both are done to give the individual an advantage (I think Novak venting and Rafa's routines help clear their minds).

Novak's behaviour sets a more obviously worse example but probably doesn't affect his opponent a great deal. Rafa's behaviour is more subtle but probably has a bigger effect on an opponent.

The thing in the preceding discussion that I really don't agree with is the idea that Rafa is somehow compelled by OCD to do these things.

Rafa does not have OCD. He is perhaps a bit obsessive about order and routine but that is not OCD.

Novak used to spend an age bouncing the ball before serving but he's cut that out in recent years.

Rafa could cut out all those 'tics' if he wanted but I think he is just not that bothered about them. We know he doesn't like the 20/25 second rule on serving, and I doubt he gives it much thought.

Well he's certainly bothered by it. Notice that after the TV in set 2 when Rafa was 3-0 up, Rafa had lost a bit of concentration esp.during his own service game, probably feeling a bit rushed. He won only 50% of his first serves in that second set, a low % by his standard.

I really feel that his team should at least help give him some confidence, so that he can be a bit more calm playing out thete. A confident Rafa plays a bit quicker between points.

When Rafa first came back from injury in 2013, this time between points rule was just started to be strictly enforced. Rafa coped quite well then at SA clay court swing. He was playing aggressive tennis at Acapulco and didnt need to take that long between points. I guess its only when he feels calm and confident then he could stay within the time limit.

A djokovic didn't yell at the ballboy. Not like roger the inviolate one yelled at djoko's mom. He yelled at his box and the ballboy was near by. But is really hilarious that the same people who applaud fed for purposefully and intentionally yelling at djoko's parents are rewriting history like dr. Goebels on good 1940s meth in claiming that djokovic yelled at a ballboy. No he yelled at his box and the ballboy was near by. As opposed to Rog purposefully going at djoko's box. What I find more annoying then either players conduct is the purposefully dishonest argument that Novak yelled at the ballboy. If I fart in a room and you smell it it is a lot different then me sitting on your face and cutting the cheese.

If we are going to make up lies about players and criticize them based on a falsehood well let me get it properly started. What is worth Federer killing puppies and kittens or Andy Murray selling crack?

HM Murdoch wrote:


..........................................................................

He didn't scream at a ballboy, he screamed and made a nearby ballboy jump. If the ballboy hadn't been there, I doubt anyone would have given the moment a second thought.

Novak's screaming doesn't really bother me. I think the racquet smashing is much worse. His hitting a ball in the direction of a linesman in the Karlovic match was completely unacceptable. He could justifiably have been disqualified for that.

....................................................................................

.

Am inclined to agree HMM that the screaming was no big deal, and wasn't intentionally directed at the ballboy. He didn't deserve the flak he got in some parts of the media etc.

But .......as you say, the racquet smashing is much worse, and is evidence of a lack of self-control when feeling under pressure (even in cases when he still ends up comfortably winning a match). Not a great example to aspiring youngsters. In truth, it has been a fairly regular feature over the years - not least at the Slams. Can remember seeing racquets destroyed at Wimbledon, USO and at RG. Not sure about AO ; but if not, perhaps he should add it to the list, if only to complete the career Slam ....

What exactly is so bad about smashing a racquet? It is his racquet if he wants to smash it who the fck cares? Really, I don't think I care if a player smashes a racquet. If you have ever played tennis competitively for an extended period of time you have probably smashed a racquet. I have after double faulting three times in a long service game to lose my serve when serving for the set in a tournament. I bought it if I want I will smash it, so?

[quote="socal1976"]If we are going to make up lies about players and criticize them based on a falsehood well let me get it properly started. What is worth Federer killing puppies and kittens or Andy Murray selling crack?[/quote]

FEDERER! Because I am all for the legalisation of drugs or at least decriminalising them. Following that closely in the US.

socal1976 wrote:What exactly is so bad about smashing a racquet? It is his racquet if he wants to smash it who the fck cares? Really, I don't think I care if a player smashes a racquet. If you have ever played tennis competitively for an extended period of time you have probably smashed a racquet. I have after double faulting three times in a long service game to lose my serve when serving for the set in a tournament. I bought it if I want I will smash it, so?

It's a bad example to kids playing the game - whose parents may end paying the cost of getting a new racket and then have to teach the kids that what the pros do isn't a good example to follow.
Plus it's childish and immature.

I do have sympathy for those who have OCD, but as this suggests "People with mild to moderate OCD usually need about 10 hours of therapist treatment, combined with exercises done at home between sessions."
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Obsessive-compulsive-disorder/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Hey as long as Federer kills the puppies withun the 20 second alloted time eh...

I forgive Nadals time violations, not accept them because I dont notice them. If the sport did crack down on it and start handing out point and game penalties more often, and put a shot clock on court. I would be absolutely for that, it would have the added bonus of forcing Rafa to sort out his ticks, superstition or not.

Ive never liked the "gotcha" mentality of finding one thing that someone does wrong and going "THERE SEE HES A TERRIBLE EXAmPLE TO KIDS!"

Taken on the whole, Novak is a fantastic example of a professional sportsman who sometimes loses his temper, like all humans do. His job description is not to be a role model, but he does it pretty well. Remember when Connors was world number 1? Or Mcenroe?

JuliusHMarx wrote:I do have sympathy for those who have OCD, but as this suggests "People with mild to moderate OCD usually need about 10 hours of therapist treatment, combined with exercises done at home between sessions."
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Obsessive-compulsive-disorder/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Although lets be clear here, neither you or me can factually claim if he either has OCD, or how severe it actually is, considering we've never seem him anywhere outside of a court.

It could be just his thing, or it could be a sign of very severe OCD, lets not claim factually that Nadal could clear everything up with just a couple of afternoons work.

His ticks are symptomatic of OCD, though I could never say how bad it actually is, only guess.

Fair enough temp - it's more the Rafa fans that claim he has OCD, not me. Have a go at them instead.

I dont mean to have a go, I hope that wasnt misunderstood, just noting that neither of us can really judge it (likely) form a medical level that well.

Rafa has bigger problems than OCD, but still, being a Cyborg with plasma mumbo jumbo treatments, he is holding ok, his hair not so.

temp, you flirting with me with these ever so often soft edits of my posts?

Are you female at least?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:What exactly is so bad about smashing a racquet? It is his racquet if he wants to smash it who the fck cares? Really, I don't think I care if a player smashes a racquet. If you have ever played tennis competitively for an extended period of time you have probably smashed a racquet. I have after double faulting three times in a long service game to lose my serve when serving for the set in a tournament. I bought it if I want I will smash it, so?

It's a bad example to kids playing the game - whose parents may end paying the cost of getting a new racket and then have to teach the kids that what the pros do isn't a good example to follow.
Plus it's childish and immature.

Its entertainment, it gives us a talking point and brings some fire into the contest. It is the parents job to teach their kids, Novak is a tennis player and if it helps him release anger and hostility and works for him so what? It certainly is childish and immature but so are a lot of things. I remember when Fed broke a racquet I believe after losing to Novak in an error strewn match at Miami a few years back. I didn't even care and as you know I relish opportunities to tarnish the anointed ones halo. I actually liked it, showed me how ticked off he was and that Djokovic was getting to him.

These attempts to characterise Nadals TVs as some kind of affliction are ridiculous.

It's quite obvious they are a developed routine to increase resting time to replenish oxygen between his brutal running. The reason he gets upset us that he knows without the time he's in big trouble of exhausting himself.