West Indies v England 1st Test - Antigua

First topic message reminder :

WI win toss and decide to field. Not sure why. This "exploit early life in the pitch" thing is really overplayed. Feel England would have batted had they won the toss. Lot of pressure on Cook now.

Guildford

For me, the question of the declaration is simply mathematical - what is the point where you maximise the number of overs available to dismiss the opposition in the 4th innings?

Setting about 440 in about 125 overs (especially as it allowed a few overs before the tea interval) was pretty good. The runs per over requirement is just about feasible (3.5 per over), so you're kind of dangling the carrot a bit. How much earlier could you declare and it actually be adding to the number of overs you're likely to bowl? Also, if today plays out with the Windies batting well for the first half of the day (say only losing 1 wicket and adding 120-ish) the temptation to try and chase the total increases and could induce some rash batting.

As I said, you can make a case for declaring when the lead was about 420, which would have given about 3 more overs and dropped the run rate to about 3.25 - makes the target slightly easier in rate terms, and the way things have panned out would have left the Windies looking for about 300 today. Perhaps a bit too much of a risk in the first test of the series

Anything less than about 400 lead and you're getting into the area where you are losing overs, as a good batting performance would see the runs knocked off in fewer than 120 overs, well short of the end of the day. It does take the draw out of the equation, but increases the possibility of a defeat.

Hope the above makes sense...

I'd normally say in this match position England would be clear favourites, but the wicket seems particularly placid, which is why I think the Windies have a reasonable chance of batting through for the draw (especially if Chanderpaul gets set). Not convinced we have a bowler on current form who can rip through a side without any real assistance from the pitch - Tredwell probably needs the batsmen to go after him a bit to create problems, Anderson may get a chance with the second new ball, but otherwise we will have to just plug away, rotate the bowlers and hope to keep chipping a wicket out every now and then.

Although I agree with the declaration, I can't see any carrot being dangled. The Windies won't go for these.

I wouldn't think there is any possibility of West Indies scoring these runs - or even making a serious attempt to do so. (they scored at about 2.5 per over in the first innings ; would need nearly 4 today) If they even threatened to chase down the total , England would have a lot more avenues to slow them down than are available in the rather artificial world of limited over cricket...
Actually don't think they'd have been any real chance of chasing say 400 in three or four more overs either ; but to me it seems a half hour bowl before tea , leaving bowlers and new ball fresh after tea for another go , is just about what you want anyway - a few overs more isn't necessarily any great gain. Sometimes a team falls a wicket or two short , and critics say "if only they'd declared ten minutes earlier" ; but this is a fallacy. You cannot automatically assume four overs more at the start of an innings translates into four overs more at the end : the pressure shifts throughout an innings ; so that some overs are perhaps more dangerous than others...I realize I'm probably not making this as clear as I'd like  
But essentially I am suggesting that considering all factors (dividing the bowlers' efforts into short blocks ; making batsmen start again ; ensuring a second new ball early enough on the last day that your strike bowlers have not been overbowled that day...) the timing of this declaration was just about optimum ( given there was no chance of setting them 500 odd before lunch). And if England can't bowl them out in 130 overs , they probably couldn't bowl them out in 135...
Will they ?  I think so : but it's no done deal. Pitch is not offering a great deal ; though I think the spinners could pose an increasing threat even to batsmen intent on survival. And a bit of reverse and perhaps some uneven bounce might develop for the pacers. And apart from Chanderpaul I'm not sure too many of the West Indies bats are going to enjoy batting for time. They played cautiously with some effect first time round - but only lasted 113 overs I think ; and the pressure of a fourth innings is different.
England will need to be patient , and will hope to pick up a couple of batsmen cheaply , unlike the first innings where most got a start , though only Blackwood really went on.
One slight concern for me is that Anderson didn't look as dangerous as I'd hoped in his first few overs yesterday. I didn't see his later spell but some people have said it was a bit unthreatening ...is he feeling "record anxiety" perhaps ; or just a little off in his rhythm ? If he can get a bit of reverse going today he could be a big threat . Pleased to see Broad looking closer to his old self : one of his "last day specials" would make victory very likely...
Not ruling out a match saving effort from West Indies . But I do fancy England to win , though I think they will have to sweat for it - and perhaps for quite a large part of the available overs.

If we can't bowl the west Indies out in over 130 overs we don't deserve to win a test match

Reckon England will finish two or three wickets short. Mind you, Windies collapsed spectacularly - albeit against a very good attack - versus South Africa in Cape Town a few weeks ago when looking fairly safe.

Any way to watch this / listen to this outside the UK?

No drama in the first half hour. Both batsmen playing carefully...as you would.
Bit of spin for Tredwell . Broad giving way to Jimmy after four tidy overs.
Patience needed.

Hotting up now as Samuels launches Tredwell for six...and then nearly comes unstuck trying to repeat the dose...
Seems Marlon has watched enough and wants to upset Tredwell's rhythm : could be an interesting patch of play coming up.

But it's Smith who falls ...straight to Ballance at mid on...fine bowling Tredwell

I know Blackwood excelled in the first innings ; but for me this is the key partnership with Chanderpaul joining Samuels. Get one of these early and England will fancy their chances...

Really like what I've seen from Tredwell this morning : good variation in pace and flight , working away at their patience. Wonder if Samuels will continue to go after him now he's lost his partner ?

Good aggressive field placings greeting Chanderpaul with three close off side catchers in...

And he does go after him ...another six...and oh so nearly a wicket as Tredwell beats Samuels and Buttler with dramatic bounce !

Good to watch...

Anderson ! Samuels falls in the gully and Jimmy has equalled Botham...

England with a double break

England well ahead now - another wicket this session and that's just about perfect

Nice to see you , VTR ...was beginning to think I was watching this on my own

You have to wonder what goes on in the heads of some batsmen. They've played perfectly for the first half hour or so, and then suddenly both Smith and Samuels have got out trying to take the bowling on. Totally unnecessary, and really not the sort of thing your top order batsmen should be doing in this situation.

dummy_half wrote:You have to wonder what goes on in the heads of some batsmen. They've played perfectly for the first half hour or so, and then suddenly both Smith and Samuels have got out trying to take the bowling on. Totally unnecessary, and really not the sort of thing your top order batsmen should be doing in this situation.

Pressure , basically. Smith just got over-anxious after not scoring off Tredwell for so long and had a rush of blood...
Samuels obviously wanted to hit Tredwell off his length and it seems his change of mood carried over when he got up Jimmy's end. Though he did say before play that he wanted to go for the win
Thought many of these fellows would battle to stay passive for too long ; but I doubt Chanderpaul will be so obliging to England .
Get him out now and you can chill the bubbly...

Oh Jimmy Jimmy! 

Another wicket before lunch and were really talking.

alfie wrote:Nice to see you , VTR ...was beginning to think I was watching this on my own

Wickets will bring people here

Thought that was long enough for Jimmy for that spell . Stokes now : let us see if he can actually get Blackwood out this time ...

Watch the feet , Ben

VTR wrote:

Wickets will bring people here

Or the 3:30 train from Waterloo in my case! Afternoon / morning, folks.

England should be thinking to eek one or two more out before the new ball. Possibly one more before lunch and one just after, then we can attack the tail with the new ball.

I'd back England from here.

Good morning , guildford.

Your man , Tredwell , has been bowling beautifully today. Not spinning at right angles , but varying things nicely. Making a case to keep Moeen waiting ?

Root with the key wicket ...Chanderpaul absolutely plumb .

Credit to the skipper for that bowling change

And now Root with the critical wicket of Chanderpaul. Looks like Ali's role of batsman/spin bowler has a challenger as well...

Hi Alfie - not so sure Tredwell is my man but he's a decent, long standing county pro who deserved better than some of the comments he was getting here and elsewhere. Pleased he's proved his worth - as posted earlier, he may be a poor man's Swann but that's still worth a fair bit. That said, I see it's Root who has just snaffled the probably all important wicket of Chanderpaul.

Btw, catching up with earlier posts - appreciate Dummy's mathematical calculations and thinking although I really need to see the play as well to get a true feel of the game and commit myself. I also agree, Alfie, with your comments about 4 more overs at the start not equating to to 4 more at the end - hard to articulate and glad it fell to you to do so!

Well, that session went about as well as we could realistically have hoped. A couple of moments where the West Indies batsmen will look back in horror and a decent bit of bowling.

Cook may not have had a good match with the bat, but his captaincy has been pretty good most of the time.

Root bowling beautifully and showing he has something about him and perhaps should be seen/used a bit more than just a part-time bowler. He has got the most out of this pitch and that is saying something.

5 more then, and 9 overs until the new ball. Interesting to see where Cook goes after lunch.

Jordan and a spinner , I guess.

Only a few left to the new ball so I imagine Jimmy and Broad stay on ice for now.

Root or Tredwell ?

Feel a bit sorry for Jordan here. In this fourth seamer role , easy to feel as if he's just marking time until the second new ball.
Bowling accurately enough ; but not a lot happening with this 77 over old ball...
There was perhaps a case for spin from both ends ? Though Jordan would then be very much a spare tyre. Having said all that , Blackwoods lofted shot wasn't far away from Root just then...
One more with the old ball.

And with that , Jordan strikes !

He's delighted , as he should be ...but what an awful "shot" from Blackwood :
Was he interested in saving the game at all ? Insanity.

So Blackwood becomes the 3rd WI batsman today to give away his wicket with a terrible, stupid, clownish shot!. What are these guys thinking?
Samuels was real pathetic, Smith at least had scored 65 bonus runs, and Blackwood, though it was atrocious coming just on the stroke of the 2nd new ball, is young and inexperienced....... But that is 3 wickets just given away when all they need is to bat out the day.......

So how long will the WI last? I'd say another 10 overs....... England should finish this off well before tea.......

Really like the way Blackwood has played in this match - had some fortune , yes ; but at least took the fight to England.
But that was reprehensible , with one over to the new ball and just the tail to come.
It wasn't even in his preferred hitting zone.

Jordan won't mind

Switched on only a few minutes ago.

I haven't seen the earlier wickets, but have some sympathy with attempts to use your feet to knock the spinner off his length - we have seen time and time again that you can't just let the spinner dictate terms, so in that respect if Smith was trying to hit Tredwell down the ground, even in the air, it wasn't necessarily the worst idea in itself (the question is whether it was to the right ball, at the right time, on the right terms etc.).

Blackwood's "shot" on the other hand... I simply cannot begin to fathom. A real headsgone moment. Astonishing.

Botham does talk some absolute rubbish.

msp83 wrote:So Blackwood becomes the 3rd WI batsman today to give away his wicket with a terrible, stupid, clownish shot!. What are these guys  thinking?
Samuels was real pathetic, Smith at least had scored 65 bonus runs, and Blackwood, though it was atrocious coming just on the stroke of the 2nd new ball, is young and inexperienced....... But that is 3 wickets just given away when all they need is to bat out the day.......

Not that surprising though , is it , msp ? They really lack the discipline to bat for time (hearts in the limited over game ?)
I always felt if England were tight and patient they'd get some wickets that way today.

To be honest , a lot of teams struggle to play for draws these days. But you're right : on a still decent pitch , they have been very poor today.

Wonder how Holder will play ? He strikes me as having a bit of courage and determination ; might give his skipper some support ...which he needs , as the new ball comes out...

msp83 wrote:The West Indies haven't been playing like the West Indies of recent times in the 2nd innings so far. Trying to stay in the game, and even Smith is scoring some runs!
When Brathwaite, their 2nd best batsman got out, I was thinking of a very early finish.......

As it's turning out, it seems that Smith is going to be the only batsman passing the half-century mark in the second innings....

msp83 wrote:So Blackwood becomes the 3rd WI batsman today to give away his wicket with a terrible, stupid, clownish shot!. What are these guys  thinking?
Samuels was real pathetic, Smith at least had scored 65 bonus runs, and Blackwood, though it was atrocious coming just on the stroke of the 2nd new ball, is young and inexperienced....... But that is 3 wickets just given away when all they need is to bat out the day.......

Totally agree...madness!

Holder is playing pretty soundly here...some of the top order might take note

Still some work to do for England , as the new ball hasn't had the desired impact. Close at square leg just then ; but still just six down...

4 wickets left! Huge dissapointment if we don't win this now.

Fifty stand

Still forty overs left : but the problem for Cook is that his two main pace bowlers have done a fair bit of work - probably only one more decent spell left in each of them. And neither Jordan nor Stokes has been gathering lots of wickets...
One wicket now would probably just about do for West Indies ; but the longer these two bat the more the pressure shifts back to the bowling team.
Half hour up to tea could be vital ?

msp83 wrote:So Blackwood becomes the 3rd WI batsman today to give away his wicket with a terrible, stupid, clownish shot!. What are these guys  thinking?
Samuels was real pathetic, Smith at least had scored 65 bonus runs, and Blackwood, though it was atrocious coming just on the stroke of the 2nd new ball, is young and inexperienced....... But that is 3 wickets just given away when all they need is to bat out the day.......

Comments like this are nonsensical, not all batsmen are mentally geared to defending like Chanderpaul or Dravid so to hold everyone else up to similar standards is fairly absurd. The constant Pietersen jibes are a case in point, he's an attacking player who gets after the bowling, you can't then expect him to flip his technique and tactical approach 180 to bat out a day.

Quicks not really making any impression here : time for a bit more spin ?

Still plenty of overs left ; but a bit of anxiety creeping in judging from the body language of some England players.

Tredwell now...

Anderson and Broad have been an aberration with the new ball this test - easily outbowled by Taylor

4 wickets needed in the final session then, need to break up this partnership asap. Sir Chris Jordan it's gonna be his session!

NickisBHAFC wrote:4 wickets needed in the final session then, need to break up this partnership asap. Sir Chris Jordan it's gonna be his session!

I hope you're right , Nick .

Someone needs to have a good session ...would be disappointing not to win after where they were at lunch. But these two are playing very soundly...

These 2 have done a good job so far, but think its just a matter of a wicket for England. There still are another 28 overs to negotiate for the West Indies, enough time for England to force the issue.

msp83 wrote:These 2 have done a good job so far, but think its just a matter of a wicket for England. There still are another 28 overs to negotiate for the West Indies, enough time for England to force the issue.

Got to get that first one though , msp. I am starting to feel they aren't going to ...at least until it is too late. It has been a fine fight back from these two

They really don't look like getting out at the moment. Guess it only takes one ball ; but if I had to bet on it right now , I'd put my money on the draw.

Anderson now : never mind the record , they need him to work some magic...

Yes this is going to be another disappointing draw, like the first test in the summer that ended up being turned round to a shock series defeat

Joe Root on now ...can he produce another rabbit from the hat ?