West Indies v England 1st Test - Antigua

First topic message reminder :

WI win toss and decide to field. Not sure why. This "exploit early life in the pitch" thing is really overplayed. Feel England would have batted had they won the toss. Lot of pressure on Cook now.

I do love me some Gary Ballance

Ballance manages to go skirting pass 10!. He should get a big one this time.

Shambles

At what point does bad form become a trend? Not speaking about Bell.

Bell's gone mental and England loses a wicket through a totally unnecessary run-out!.

West Indies had already settled for 2 wickets as Ramdin had called on Benn, and then Bell had to do that!.

Ramdin should now unleash Marlon the mystery spinner!. And the Marlon-Sulieman combination would run through this lineup!.

Incoming inevitable collapse for 100 runs and the WI knock it off tonight. Seen it too many times

GSC wrote:At what point does bad form become a trend? Not speaking about Bell.

For Cook apparently never - for everyone else year, year and a half

Ramdin being sensible for ones, Taylor back on, but he should take Benn off and attack with his seamers for a while more, from both ends.......

Ramdin misses the trick!. Benn continues. Root is England's best player of spin, and he's not the greatest of starters against pace. Ramdin should have brought Holder from the other end rather than letting Root settle against the friendly stuff of Benn.

To be fair, I'd always have a spinner on against England

Been calling it for years but it has to happen now surly. DROP COOK ECB YOU UTTER IDIOTS!

Adam Lyth needs to opening the batting. Him and someone else, maybe Compton. Trott in at 3, KP at 4, Bell at 5, Stokes at 6, Buttler at 7, Jordan at 8, Broad at 9, Anderson at 10 and Tredwell at 11.

You'd drop Root???

Dropping England's best player is an interesting tactic Nick

Olly wrote:Dropping England's best player is an interesting tactic Nick

I know, how can anyone drop Moeen?!

Yeah sorry my bad there! Root at 2 then with Lyth. JUST GET COOK OUT THE TEAM!

The ball does something when it is relatively new. Benn bowling 5 of 25 overs at this stage is not a sound call at all. He doesn't spin it much anyways, and doesn't offer much control either.

Ramdin has only 3 seamers to call on, so perhaps he's thinking of rotating the 3 around Benn, as Roach comes back on replacing Taylor.
They should surely play Bishoo in the next test.

Ballance looking comfortable now.

England lead by 175 already, bat an hour pass lunch tomorrow, they should have a big enough lead and lots of time to bowl the WI out.......

NickisBHAFC wrote:Yeah sorry my bad there! Root at 2 then with Lyth. JUST GET COOK OUT THE TEAM!

Why would you move him up to open when he's been so good in the middle order? 

Real issues for England at the top of the order.

Promoting Root would be daft beyond belief. Every moment of his test (and ODI) career to date has screamed that he is a middle-order player, totally at home at no 5. Attempting to solve a problem by moving him up is going to create two problems where previously there was 1.

Cook remains the best opener in the country, but how long can you keep persevering with him? Part of Cook's issues of course stem from wider problems such as the pressure on him as captain, and the lack of a stable opening pair. But he needs runs and soon.

Meanwhile Ramdin is showing that maybe England don't have things so bad - his captaincy has been absolutely dreadful. We now have Benn and Samuels bowling in tandem, and it's not even as if the 3 medium pacers have bowled all that much. West Indies had a real opening with the Bell run-out but now... England are in control once more.

IN fact apart from the top-order issues England have done a decent job in this match so far. The much maligned Tredwell has come up with the goods, and will have another crucial role to play. The at times equally maligned Broad seems to be gradually getting back into the swing of things. Cook rotated his bowlers pretty well, and were it not for a dropped catch and a wicket from a no-ball England would be close to out of sight.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Once again, I have a it of sympathy for Ramdin: it's not easy balancing a 4-man attack and he does have to be a bit careful not to bowl his seamers into the ground. Having said that as Mike says they hadn't bowled long spells, while Benn has been utterly dreadful in this match so far, so it was all a bit brainless to keep bowling him at Root and Ballance (both of whom play spin, and left-arm spin in particular, pretty well). To then bring on Samuels and bowl the two in tandem was stupid and crazy in equal parts.

Problems for England's top order, not sure Trott is an opener personally, and like Mike I fancy some of Cook's problems stem from a lack of stability at the top. Good news is that Ballance seems to be at least playing himself back into a bit of form, while Root continues to thrive at n°5, and seems to have a calming influence on his partner when he's at the crease.

Thought England did OK with the ball, except for a poor spell after lunch where they just sat back a bit too much (Cook was off the field for at least part of that, so not entirely his fault). A bit dodgy in the field at times. Stokes was unlucky with the ball for me, first spell aside I thought he bowled well and could/should easily have had several wickets. Tredders did his job very well, and the comparison with Benn really re-inforces just how poor the latter has been. Cook's captaincy was generallly sound, rotated his bowlers well, set fields to clear plans which England stuck to.

People will start talking about declarations soon, and no doubt if Cook were to declare now it would still be viewed as too passive for some I'd be amazed personally if England were to declare before tea and a lead of 400 are reached (they may declare a bit before tea if they get a real move on, but I doubt it). Given the over-ate from WI won't be too hot tomorrow (back to that in a minute) you're probably looking at 55 overs or so at most before tea, and even at 4 runs per over that's a lead of 440. I expect England to declare - if they're not bowled out - sometime fairly shortly after tea with a lead of 420-450, which everyone will view as too negative

Finally, wouldn't be my end of play summary without a gripe about over-rates, I make it 85 overs bowled today, in the full six and a half hours of play (since they took tea between innings they don't lose overs for that). That's an over-rate of 13 overs per hour, which given how many overs were bowled by spinners is fairly dreadful

a final thought. It's interesting that since day 1 the play has been roughly equal, with maybe WI even just shading it (in the sense that had England started day 2 on 200/5 which is roughly when WI lost their fifth wicket, then WI would be marginally ahead of the game). Given WI were on top at lunch on day 1, it does go to show how poorly WI bowled to let England get so many after that (and of course, how well Root, Bell and Stokes played). Benn in particular as already mentioned was awful, but the seamers were also guilty of bowling far too short.

Olly wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Yeah sorry my bad there! Root at 2 then with Lyth. JUST GET COOK OUT THE TEAM!

Why would you move him up to open when he's been so good in the middle order? 

Like I say I don't care, just remove that little cu*t in Cook!

There are definitely questions to be asked about the opening slots for England. Trott just does not look ready and you feel Cook needs a batsman in-form alongside him just now to allow him to settle into his innings. For me that opener has to be attack-minded as well and Trott is just not that man.

Mike Selig wrote:Real issues for England at the top of the order.

Promoting Root would be daft beyond belief. Every moment of his test (and ODI) career to date has screamed that he is a middle-order player, totally at home at no 5. Attempting to solve a problem by moving him up is going to create two problems where previously there was 1.

Cook remains the best opener in the country, but how long can you keep persevering with him? Part of Cook's issues of course stem from wider problems such as the pressure on him as captain, and the lack of a stable opening pair. But he needs runs and soon.

Meanwhile Ramdin is showing that maybe England don't have things so bad - his captaincy has been absolutely dreadful. We now have Benn and Samuels bowling in tandem, and it's not even as if the 3 medium pacers have bowled all that much. West Indies had a real opening with the Bell run-out but now... England are in control once more.

IN fact apart from the top-order issues England have done a decent job in this match so far. The much maligned Tredwell has come up with the goods, and will have another crucial role to play. The at times equally maligned Broad seems to be gradually getting back into the swing of things. Cook rotated his bowlers pretty well, and were it not for a dropped catch and a wicket from a no-ball England would be close to out of sight.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Thing is I really do think Cook would benefit from some time in County Cricket with Essex - just so he can spend some time out in the middle and almost remember what it's like to bat for a few sessions and make a big score. 

It's just painful to watch him at the moment - you know that the nick is coming, just a case of when

I think Lyth opening with Cook at number 2, id be prepared to try but I just know cook will go early.

3rd day ended up pretty well as I expected , with England 220 on and seven wickets in hand : barring another early morning collapse tomorrow (something one can never rule out with England lately!) this ought to be a good platform from which to push for a win.
A few ups and downs over the day (I only watched to lunch) : but England will probably feel they did quite well to work their way through the WI batting on a fairly placid pitch ...delighted to see Tredwell justify his selection in the face of a fair few negative comments on here and elsewhere .  And well done Blackwood on his hundred : he had some luck , but played with intent and deserved it I think - WI score would have looked sick without him.
Cook and Trott failing again is a bit of a concern . Though I think Taylor , if he bowled as well with the new ball today as in the first innings , should get some credit ?  Not panicking yet ; but I would like to see Cook get a big score soon and settle his critics down. Easy to say toss him out ...harder to find a replacement , given they still haven't adequately replaced Strauss , as Olly , I think it was , pointed out earlier.
Root going very well .Leave him at five !

The same familiar outcome to a WI Test...the opposition bat on, trying to figure out when to declare, and then the WI batsmen try to stave off defeat. Is it any surprise WI fans don't go to Test cricket any more? Who'd miss a day of work for this?

I am not sure what to make of this performance from England. Seems a lot of the old problems are still there i.e. a propensity to be 50-3 and lower order collapses. These have been a problem for a couple of years now, with the India series last summer being the only real exception.

We should win this, but that's more a reflection on how bad the Windies bowling options are beyond the opening two. It will almost be a win by default.

There are huge question marks about Cook, I now expect him to get out for less than 20 and he usually delivers on that. Trott has had a very poor return as opener. Broad looks to be getting back into some rhythm but is a number 11 now, and we really need his attacking lower order runs.

Positives are the all-round performance of Stokes, Root continuing to develop and Bell playing another good innings under pressure (putting his brainless run-out aside for a moment!)

Final word for Tredwell who has been excellent and the correct pick as I thought he would be. I think people want Rashid in because he can bat a bit, whilst ignoring the fact he would probably go at 5 an over with his bowling. I'd go as far as saying with Rashid in the side, we could well be staring at defeat here.

Interesting piece by Scyld Berry in the Daily Telegraph. Says Windies using really cheapo balls which swing like billyo in first 15 overs which makes opening the batting really tricky.
Clearly, Cook's batting is a big worry. Whether on tour or in England there are no longer the chances for an out-of-form batsman to put it right between Tests.
Not sure what England are going to do about Moeen Ali if Tredwell continues to have a good match. Spose it's a nice problem to have.

sirfredperry wrote:Interesting piece by Scyld Berry in the Daily Telegraph. Says Windies using really cheapo balls which swing like billyo in first 15 overs which makes opening the batting really tricky.
  Clearly, Cook's batting is a big worry. Whether on tour or in England there are no longer the chances for an out-of-form batsman to put it right between Tests.
  Not sure what England are going to do about Moeen Ali if Tredwell continues to have a good match. Spose it's a nice problem to have.  

That's interesting re the type of ball being used.

Moeen could come back into the side alongside Tredwell? Two off-spinners maybe not ideal, but they are different types of off-spinner, and spin from both ends could really put the squeeze on and might free Stokes and Broad up to bowl shorter spells, as there would be no need for a holding seamer. Perhaps Jordan drops out for Moeen?

Yeah I would have assumed Moeen would come in for Jordan, assuming the pitches are similar to this one.

We all saw how dropping Cook in ODIs solved all of England's problems. Oh wait...

To be serious, given that England haven't yet found someone to suitably replace Strauss, I don't see how dropping the more established opener (albeit in poor form) is going to help things.

I await for Cook and England to be castigated for being too defensive/cautious in their batting/declaration for most of today.

Cook needs to go as skipper, but not as a batsman.

Ali for Jordan seems reasonable.

I'm not going to pick a side for the second Test until the first is over. However, one option not mentioned above would be for Moeen to replace Trott. That would give us a different type of opener as well as a further bowling option.

yeah you would expect Ali to come in for Jordan I guess. I think Stokes's batting has done enough for him to keep his place, while as I mentioned I thought he bowled well (first spell excluded) without having any luck. He could/should have dismissed Blackwood on three or four occasions.

I actually think Cook is improving as a skipper, he captained the team pretty well last summer, and pretty well again here (in fact the only period where England were poor for me coincided with when he was off the field, so...). It would be silly to drop him given our struggles to find even one decent opener at the moment, as at least he has the track record. To drop him and push Root up to open would be silly beyond belief. Leave Root where he is!!!

In fact, contrary to recent times England seem to have decent options for the middle-order/lower middle-order, maybe too many even (it seems not unlikely, if Moeen does come in, that they'll go into the next match with one of Stokes/Buttler/Moeen batting at 8, which feels on the low side). Unfortunately, they're constantly having to recover from poor starts, and they won't be able to do that all the time against an attack as good as Australia's. Ballance regaining form is good, but England desperately need
a) Cook to regain form
and
b) to find a decent opening partner for him, at least one who'll consistently get through the new ball.

For b) I think Trott deserves another chance, he's had one very good ball and one pretty good one here, but I'm not sure his technique leads to him becoming an opening bat TBH. After that, you're apparently looking at Lyth, who I'll admit I've not seen a lot of, and hoping he succeeds.

guildfordbat wrote:I'm not going to pick a side for the second Test until the first is over. However, one option not mentioned above would be for Moeen to replace Trott. That would give us a different type of opener as well as a further bowling option.

Sorry, can't see this working. Moeen's technique is way too loose to be an opening batsman in Test cricket IMO.

I don't think Moeen is a test level batsmen to start with so him opening would be a disaster.

Cook needs to be relieved of the captaincy, the average of every England captain seems to drop but his captaincy isn't at the level of a Vaughan, Strauss or even a Hussein to compensate for it.

Who replaces Cook as captain in that case?

Root would seem to me to be the heir apparent, but if we're worried about captaincy affecting batting form, then... Root has only recently found his feet completely in this side, do we want to thrust the captaincy on him also?

Bell is another option, as someone with some captaincy experience, experience generally and with a fairly secure place in the side (although that could easily change, especially if he follows the trend of captains not scoring runs).

Or we could go with a bowler, Broad being the obvious choice. As he could scarcely score fewer runs than he is currently, the captaincy curse wouldn't be a worry from that perspective, but...

I'm not a great fan of Cook the captain (although I'm not sure he's as poor as all that either) but I don't like the alternatives much either*

* I think Root will evolve into a good captain, but would like to see him given another year to really kick on as a middle-order player first.

As an aside, why is it that especially England captains seem to struggle? This is not something which is so evident with other countries: for Australia Ponting and Clarke (and going back S. Waugh) performed fine, Smith captained SA for donkey's years without it adversely affecting his batting, McCullum seems to be thriving for NZ, etc. Is there something about the England environment that puts more pressure on the captain? And if so, what? The set-up/system, pressure from the media/fans?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:I'm not going to pick a side for the second Test until the first is over. However, one option not mentioned above would be for Moeen to replace Trott. That would give us a different type of opener as well as a further bowling option.

Sorry, can't see this working. Moeen's technique is way too loose to be an opening batsman in Test cricket IMO.

As I said before this Test (thought I would get that in early like a bulldozer breaking the speed limit! ), I would have played Lyth in place of Trott. Whilst I accept Trott's had no luck in this Test, nothing has happened to make me change my mind and I'm sure that even the most ardent member of the Trott fan club can understand that. Therefore for me, it would still be Lyth (watched him just the once at the Oval at the end of the 2013 season and liked what I saw).

However, if Moeen is to be brought back into the side, we need to calmly (that's not aimed at you, MfC, but there do seem to be a few knee jerk reactions around) consider the options available. As an opener, Moeen in my book is just that - an option. I understand and share to some extent (albeit less than you, Mike and some others here) concerns about his technique. Moeen as an opener is not ideal. However, if he could get a start, he would be a useful partner and foil for the currently out of form and laborious Cook. I would also add that Moeen has form for surprising us.

I think it is too soon at this hour to be reaching decisions (or near decisions) about ditching Jordan. What if he smashes 60 odd today and/or takes a last day fourfer? [Sir Fred may be able to help me out here but I think Jack Benaud, brother of Richie, was playing in a Test when it was publicly announced that he was dropped for the next one - he was already batting in his second innings at the time and went on to score a century. No Benaud for that next Test but plenty of egg on Australian selectors' faces!]

From his days at Surrey, I understand that Jordan is very much (and more than most) a confidence player. That of course doesn't mean he is or should be undroppable. However, if we want to see the best out of him, I believe he needs to be given a run. I don't feel he will cut it as a squad player, coming in and out as cover for the odd injury here and there.

One other option would be to make no changes at all and leave Moeen on the sidelines. That might seem harsh and odd but it's been done before (Stuart Meaker flew half way across the world for an ODI and ended up carrying the drinks!). That actually has some merit to my mind. I don't think that he and Tredwell would particularly complement each other. Furthermore, Tredwell is the specialist bowler and the one in form.

It's good to have these options so ....

Cook was compared to Bradman when he first took over the captaincy.

I can understand dropping Cook as a batsman... But relieving him of captaincy seems opaque. The Ashes was a disaster, fair enough. But he's still won a five match series to nil. I'm not even sure who the last English capo to do that was.

Nonetheless, when England cricket is being criticised, the answer is always KP (both for who is to blame, and who can save it)

Mike Selig wrote: "As an aside, why is it that especially England captains seem to struggle? This is not something which is so evident with other countries: for Australia Ponting and Clarke (and going back S. Waugh) performed fine, Smith captained SA for donkey's years without it adversely affecting his batting, McCullum seems to be thriving for NZ, etc. Is there something about the England environment that puts more pressure on the captain? And if so, what? The set-up/system, pressure from the media/fans?"

I think that captaincy of the England cricket team is the most scrutinised sporting appointment in the world. So, yes, the England skipper is under far more pressure than other Test captains and, arguably, under more pressure than any other world sportsman.
  The only equivalent - at least for British sportsmen - is the sort of pressure first Tim Henman and then Andy Murray was/is under during Wimbledon.

So far there are positives and the odd negative from the test. The obvious negative is the top order batsmen's form (or lack of it) that has seen a top order collapse in both innings. That has to be addressed as the next Ashes Series grows ever nearer. Trott is just not ready so for the next test Adam Lyth should get a chance. The positives are the batting form of the middle order from the likes of Bell, Root and Stokes which is heartening. The bowling has also been pretty disciplined in both the pace and spin department as well.

The problem for England is they need confidence-boosting wins but at the same time the team still needs tweaking here and there. Tricky.

I think having given Trott the nod at the start of the series he will probably play the 2nd test at least. Hard to drop someone after just the one game.

In fact because of the structure of the "modern tour" it is hard to see England making any wholesale changes during the series, unless things go badly wrong. Moving Moeen up to open I would consider a "wholesale change" which is why I can't really see it happening. That was why I said he will most likely return in the same position (or similar) as that which he occupied before his injury. Which means realistically it's one of Stokes, Jordan or Tredwell given way. And I think as the man in possession effectively Moeen does return when fit.

But I tend to agree with guildford that arguing about selection for the 2nd test before the 1st test is done may be getting ahead of ourselves. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

Mike Selig wrote:
But I tend to agree with guildford that arguing about selection for the 2nd test before the 1st test is done may be getting ahead of ourselves. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

Fair point. Jordan has been the lesser performing seamer thus far, so is the assumed man to go, but what if he does a Harmison and takes 7-for in the second innings? Or even a 3 or 4-for would be a good case to stay in the side.

Mike Selig wrote:

But I tend to agree with guildford that arguing about selection for the 2nd test before the 1st test is done may be getting ahead of ourselves. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

Yes things can change but not for Trott for example. He has done his stint and mustered four runs. I see what you are saying that he shouldn't be dropped after one test and you are probably right there but for me time is an issue for England. They have to sort out issues and fast as they cannot still be tinkering trying to find an opener still when the Ashes is set to start. The Aussies would prefer a mentally-scarred Trott low on runs opening than perhaps a fresh face who they'd probably need two or three tests to work out his strengths and weaknesses.

The other more pleasant issue England have though is what happens with Moin Ali? Obviously, a better batter is Khan but Treadwell can hardly be dropped can he? So do they bring Ali in primarily as an opener?