When does a choke tackle become a high tackle.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:50 pm

There are a couple of good thread circulating the forum where the fine details of the law are being explored in a rather colorful but interesting way, long may it continue.

I wanted to comment on the "no arms" clear out thread since Sean O'Brien was mentioned (that's a cracker of a clear out by the way), and contrast his clear out technique with his and some of the other Irish forwards tackling techniques.

The Irish pack is full of monstrous men, POC, O'Mahoney, SOB and until recently Heaslip sadly ruled out through injury (although better news for Scotland come March) kiss

.

The Irish tactic when defending seems to be simple, make the tackle around chest height, keep the player on their feet and force the turnover. Even the Beeb make a point of showing how effective this technique is.

My question, when does a "choke tackle" or attempted "choke tackle" become a high tackle? A few times against France the player was held up by his neck or tackled around that region with no repercussions from the referee.

It's common for the ball carrying player to make the contact and try to go to ground to present the ball to his team mates, but that act of slipping down often ends up with the player being held up by his neck.

Is the ball carrying player at fault?
Should he try to remain on his feet?
Although effective is the Irish Choke tackle dangerous?

Discuss

Disclaimer - I know more teams perform this "choke tackle", but the Irish seem to be the ones who deploy it on a regular basis. Furthermore I saw a lot of it in the match against France and commented at the time on twitter that I'm surprised the ref didn't ping Ireland for high tackles.

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:54 pm

Choke tackles have nothing to do with high tackles, you choke the ball not the player. But there are lots and lots of tackles that involve players grabbing and pulling a player around the neck, after the initial contact.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:57 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Choke tackles have nothing to do with high tackles, you choke the ball not the player. But there are lots and lots of tackles that involve players grabbing and pulling a player around the neck, after the initial contact.

Yes I know, I'm just mentioning how often these seem to be the same thing.

by MrsP Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:57 pm

I think RR means a tackle that starts legal but then, as the tackler tries to hold the player up and the tackled player tries to get to the ground the arms of the tackler can end up around the neck of the tackled player.

Whose responsibility is that?

It is still a tackle until the player gets to the ground so I suppose it becomes a high tackle despite the time from contact to "high"?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:02 pm

MrsP wrote:I think RR means a tackle that starts legal but then, as the tackler tries to hold the player up and the tackled player tries to get to the ground the arms of the tackler can end up around the neck of the tackled player.

Whose responsibility is that?

It is still a tackle until the player gets to the ground so I suppose it becomes a high tackle despite the time from contact to "high"?

Eloquence was never my strong point thumbsup

by Cowshot Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:11 pm

I don't know if this is the Law, but my rule of thumb is to say that if the tackling arm that is over the shoulder of the tackled player goes under the tackled player's other shoulder (ie usually into the armpit) then it is a choke tackle. Round the neck is high. It seems to fit what goes on most of the time at least.

by yappysnap Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:11 pm

I think the moment the defender is gripping the opposition player around the neck that's then foul play, not sure if it should be penalised but I don't think there are any circumstances where gripping a player around the player around the neck is deemed ok.

To be honest what's more worrying with these choke tackles is the amount of players that seem to do it wrong, and end up clashing heads/faces with the opposition, Sexton is a prime example there.

by dummy_half Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:13 pm

RR

England are looking for similar choke tackles - one led to JJs first try on Saturday after 12trees and Burrell held the Italian ball carrier up and Robshaw stripped the ball.

I agree that sometimes the tackling team gets lucky in not being penalised for high tackling. as either the initial tackler slips up to the neck of the ball carrier, or players joining the tackle come over the initial tacklers and make contact with the neck and head area of the carrier. Pretty sure England got away with one on Saturday...

A useful tactic when correctly executed, but refs do seem to be turning a blind eye to some things that are technically illegal high tackles on the grounds that there is minimal or no dangerous impact.

by geoff999rugby Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:16 pm

yappysnap wrote:I think the moment the defender is gripping the opposition player around the neck that's then foul play, not sure if it should be penalised but I don't think there are any circumstances where gripping a player around the player around the neck is deemed ok.

To be honest what's more worrying with these choke tackles is the amount of players that seem to do it wrong, and end up clashing heads/faces with the opposition, Sexton is a prime example there.

Agree with that and it will remain so until the Maul rules are changed.
As soon as a maul is called nothing stopping the team without the ball doing their best to stop it coming out.
The choke tackle will always remain attractive in those circumstances and clash of heads will continue to occur.

by Gooseberry Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:32 pm

When its high.

The BBC pundits were calling for a return to the good old days when you nailed players in the ribs and drove them spine frist into the turf. The game was much safer then.

by Submachine Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Again I agree that the two are seperate and should be looked at so. If a choke tackle is executed below the shoulder line then it is a legitimate tackle. Above and it is a high tackle.
I think the confusion is around the tactics used once the maul is formed from the choke. The body positions are very different from a maul contested at say a lineout where the attacking team generall get into a low driving position and the ball is moved to the back.
A maul resulting from a choke tackle usually involes 4 or more players very upright and grappling for the ball. This then often has the effect of hands/arms going round the neck as the ball moves upward.
In my view refs are not applying the laws corrrectly at most mauls. You are only supposed to attempt to play the ball in the maul or drive the maul while bound onto a team mate. But very often you will see a standing player who cannot get low enough to drive look to cause as much mayhem as possible by holding back opposition players, gripping their hands and arms etc which is not allowed.
A far bigger worry for me is the Judo style clear out ar the ruck which often ends with the ruckee being taken out of the ruck by the head neck with the rucker using a sharp twisting action. That terrifies me.

by tigertattie Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:40 pm

If you tackle a player around the chest and "choke" off the ball but then the player you are tackling starts going to ground, you must either maintain your grip around the chest and hold them up or go to ground with them. If at any point, you end up with your arms around the neck or head of the player with the ball, then your tackle becomes dangerous and you should be penalised for it!

The responsibility needs to lay with the tackler!

It's like when a player with the ball "ducks" into a tackle and gets hit around the head! It is not the ball carriers fault that the tackler has smashed them around the coupon as from an early age you are taught to run low to the ground when going into contact! It's still a penatly! I may not be a yellow card as the tackler may not have intended to hit the ball carrier high, but it is still a penalty!

by Gooseberry Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:41 pm

Submachine wrote:
A far bigger worry for me is the Judo style clear out ar the ruck which often ends with the ruckee being taken out of the ruck by the head neck with the rucker using a sharp twisting action. That terrifies me.

Clarified last year as foul play (potnetial card) if done around the head neck, legal around the body.

by **Notch** Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:49 pm

Bad news for Scotland come March; Heaslip is expected to be fully fit by Round 5.

by Submachine Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:50 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Submachine wrote:
A far bigger worry for me is the Judo style clear out ar the ruck which often ends with the ruckee being taken out of the ruck by the head neck with the rucker using a sharp twisting action. That terrifies me.

Clarified last year as foul play (potnetial card) if done around the head neck, legal around the body.

Still happens. A lot.

by lostinwales Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:56 pm

tigertattie wrote:If you tackle a player around the chest and "choke" off the ball but then the player you are tackling starts going to ground, you must either maintain your grip around the chest and hold them up or go to ground with them. If at any point, you end up with your arms around the neck or head of the player with the ball, then your tackle becomes dangerous and you should be penalised for it!

The responsibility needs to lay with the tackler!

It's like when a player with the ball "ducks" into a tackle and gets hit around the head! It is not the ball carriers fault that the tackler has smashed them around the coupon as from an early age you are taught to run low to the ground when going into contact! It's still a penatly! I may not be a yellow card as the tackler may not have intended to hit the ball carrier high, but it is still a penalty!

I think the main worry with high tackles is the initial impact. Arms around chest slipping up around the head area isnt as bad

by demosthenes Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:27 pm

Submachine wrote:Again I agree that the two are seperate and should be looked at so. If a choke tackle is executed below the shoulder line then it is a legitimate tackle. Above and it is a high tackle.
I think the confusion is around the tactics used once the maul is formed from the choke. The body positions are very different from a maul contested at say a lineout where the attacking team generall get into a low driving position and the ball is moved to the back.
A maul resulting from a choke tackle usually involes 4 or more players very upright and grappling for the ball. This then often has the effect of hands/arms going round the neck as the ball moves upward.
In my view refs are not applying the laws corrrectly at most mauls. You are only supposed to attempt to play the ball in the maul or drive the maul while bound onto a team mate. But very often you will see a standing player who cannot get low enough to drive look to cause as much mayhem as possible by holding back opposition players, gripping their hands and arms etc which is not allowed.
A far bigger worry for me is the Judo style clear out ar the ruck which often ends with the ruckee being taken out of the ruck by the head neck with the rucker using a sharp twisting action. That terrifies me.

In the driven lineout you often see the initial catcher in the centre of the maul being choked by the opposition in an attempt to get him down and collapse the maul. A lot of these appear damgerous, even if not strictly illegal.

by TightHEAD Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:32 pm

Notch wrote:Bad news for Scotland come March; Heaslip is expected to be fully fit by Round 5.

Does he really make that much difference?

by Pot Hale Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:51 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Notch wrote:Bad news for Scotland come March; Heaslip is expected to be fully fit by Round 5.

Does he really make that much difference?

No none at all. Ireland play with 14 men most of the time. It's a tactic they're developing for the RWC.....

by Exiledinborders Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:01 pm

One other question about the legality of the choke tackle. The tackling team hold the man up until the ref shouts maul. At that point they collapse the maul in order to get a scrum. Why is it not a penalty to the other team for collapsing a maul?

by MrsP Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:36 pm

I think you can drag the ball carrier down but any other collapse is illegal?

In most mauls the opposition can not get near the ballcarrier without being offside so any collapse is illegal. Happy to be corrected though.

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:55 pm

There is no "ball carrier" in a maul. They count as one, which is why it's not obstruction.

That's what I thought anyway.

As far as I'm concerned if you end up grabbing a players neck in a maul you have change your grip somewhere legal or let go.

by FecklessRogue Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:40 pm

Personally I don't like the choke tackle. Something that results in the attacking team, the ones trying to play the rugby, conceding a penalty just doesn't seem right to me.

by PenfroPete Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:29 pm

When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Headscratch

Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH Rolling Eyes

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:11 pm

PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts Whistle

by PenfroPete Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:26 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts

Very good Hammer, I try to be reasonable (as those I've met would hopefully testify) but I'm getting a bit fed up of the "Is this a Penalty / Yellow /Red / Perpetrator should be executed" scenarios that are being thrown up with .... oh yes .. Welsh examples, every ******* time

by MrsP Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:40 pm

PenfroPete wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts

Very good Hammer, I try to be reasonable (as those I've met would hopefully testify) but I'm getting a bit fed up of the "Is this a Penalty / Yellow /Red / Perpetrator should be executed" scenarios that are being thrown up with .... oh yes .. Welsh examples, every ******* time

Except this one?

Hug

by The Saint Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:45 pm

PenfroPete wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts

Very good Hammer, I try to be reasonable (as those I've met would hopefully testify) but I'm getting a bit fed up of the "Is this a Penalty / Yellow /Red / Perpetrator should be executed" scenarios that are being thrown up with .... oh yes .. Welsh examples, every ******* time

About time some people woke up and seen what's going on. Like I said earlier, it's the reason why: a) Not many Welsh posters come on here any more. b) Welsh moderators usually end up relinquishing their badge and leaving the forum.

That thread that RDW put up before the 6 Nations outlining the rules was in play, up until Wales lost to England and Welsh posters/players/Wales starting getting slagged off. There will be no Welsh posters on here at the end of the tournament but I guess that's what most of you want.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:55 am

The Saint wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts

Very good Hammer, I try to be reasonable (as those I've met would hopefully testify) but I'm getting a bit fed up of the "Is this a Penalty / Yellow /Red / Perpetrator should be executed" scenarios that are being thrown up with .... oh yes .. Welsh examples, every ******* time

About time some people woke up and seen what's going on. Like I said earlier, it's the reason why: a) Not many Welsh posters come on here any more. b) Welsh moderators usually end up relinquishing their badge and leaving the forum.

That thread that RDW put up before the 6 Nations outlining the rules was in play, up until Wales lost to England and Welsh posters/players/Wales starting getting slagged off. There will be no Welsh posters on here at the end of the tournament but I guess that's what most of you want.

I'm not really sure where this massive chip on some of the Welsh posters comes from. It can't be helped that the Welsh side were involved in a controversial match at the weekend.

I started this thread after watching the France Ireland game and questioned the nature of choke tackles. The W word hadn't been mentioned till you rocked up. Whistle

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:20 am

I my opinion, not sure about the laws, it is all about the point of initial impact. If a played stops the ball carrier with his arm at shoulder level or below, fine. If his arm then slips up to head level in a continuous motion, such, that it causes an impact with the head/neck it is high and should be penalised.

The act of holding a player by his neck, whilst his body is subject to the movements that occur in a maul is dangerous. The tackler will not have any control of how the body is twisting and therefore is unaware of the effect his choke hold is having on the spine and neck muscles of the player he is holding. Should be an automatic yellow with a points system as there hsould be for all yellow cards for dangerous play, reach 10 points 3 week ban.

by R!skysports Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:40 am

This was not mentioning the Welsh at all???

Confused why there always has to be a conspiracy against them - rather than a debate on a particular point

Anyway, not sure I like the whole choke tackle, flopping on the ball as it comes across as negative rugby. They could make a little tweak and say that when it collapses it is the team moving forward that wins the ball

by BamBam Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:46 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
The Saint wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:When does a choke tackle become a high tackle ? Been wondering about this for a while. However, judging by the comments of some posters over the last few days the answer has become obvious ........ WHEN THE TACKLER IS WELSH

Come on Saint, you know you're not allowed two accounts

Very good Hammer, I try to be reasonable (as those I've met would hopefully testify) but I'm getting a bit fed up of the "Is this a Penalty / Yellow /Red / Perpetrator should be executed" scenarios that are being thrown up with .... oh yes .. Welsh examples, every ******* time

About time some people woke up and seen what's going on. Like I said earlier, it's the reason why: a) Not many Welsh posters come on here any more. b) Welsh moderators usually end up relinquishing their badge and leaving the forum.

That thread that RDW put up before the 6 Nations outlining the rules was in play, up until Wales lost to England and Welsh posters/players/Wales starting getting slagged off. There will be no Welsh posters on here at the end of the tournament but I guess that's what most of you want.

I'm not really sure where this massive chip on some of the Welsh posters comes from. It can't be helped that the Welsh side were involved in a controversial match at the weekend.

I started this thread after watching the France Ireland game and questioned the nature of choke tackles. The W word hadn't been mentioned till you rocked up.

Have you not met many Welsh rugby fans Run

by The Saint Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:29 am

Riskysports wrote:This was not mentioning the Welsh at all???

Confused why there always has to be a conspiracy against them - rather than a debate on a particular point

Anyway, not sure I like the whole choke tackle, flopping on the ball as it comes across as negative rugby. They could make a little tweak and say that when it collapses it is the team moving forward that wins the ball

Where as I'm confused as to why the scots always moan about refs and Welsh players/fans when they lose against a Welsh team. Looks like somebody else mentioned the W word by the way, so that's another false accusation you need to aplologise for Very Happy

. There were a few threads mentioning stuff Welsh players apparently did on the weekend, this thread was probably posted to provide some balance.
I quite like the choke tackle, and didn't notice anything particularly dangerous from Ireland. If you think it was high then surely you believe Bast's tackle on Sexton to be high?

by PenfroPete Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:37 am

I mentioned the "W" word, trying (and obviously) failing to be sarcastic Whistle

To the OP, I beleive the choke tackle should be illegal (the clue is in the wording) once a player has the opposition player held around the neck he should release that player

by The Saint Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:54 am

It's choking the ball though, not the players neck

by R!skysports Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:57 am

The Saint wrote:
Riskysports wrote:This was not mentioning the Welsh at all???

Confused why there always has to be a conspiracy against them - rather than a debate on a particular point

Anyway, not sure I like the whole choke tackle, flopping on the ball as it comes across as negative rugby. They could make a little tweak and say that when it collapses it is the team moving forward that wins the ball

Where as I'm confused as to why the scots always moan about refs and Welsh players/fans when they lose against a Welsh team. Looks like somebody else mentioned the W word by the way, so that's another false accusation you need to aplologise for . There were a few threads mentioning stuff Welsh players apparently did on the weekend, this thread was probably posted to provide some balance.
I quite like the choke tackle, and didn't notice anything particularly dangerous from Ireland. If you think it was high then surely you believe Bast's tackle on Sexton to be high?

We moan and complain all the time king

just this weekend was against a Welsh team so that was our most recent example. Our memories are too short to go beyond the last game.

We will have our Italian threads up after the next game Very Happy

by BamBam Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:06 pm

The first 2 weeks of March are going to be spent with an Anglo-Irish battle royale on here, no ones even going to notice what you call Sergio Parisse Wink

by HammerofThunor Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:08 pm

What should happen is that if the maul collapses, players have to roll away. If players deliberately collapse the maul it should be a penalty. If the maul is stationary (that mean not moving backwards as well as forwards) then it's a scrum to the opposition. Choke tackle mauls should be treated exactly the same as normal mauls...2 chances. Refs seem to be very lax with normal mauls, in terms of moving, but blow immediately when it's a choke tackle.

by The Saint Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:23 pm

Fair, as long as you're consistent with your moaning. Guess you can't say the Welsh always whinge now though eh? Wink

by R!skysports Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:26 pm

The Saint wrote:Fair, as long as you're consistent with your moaning. Guess you can't say the Welsh always whinge now though eh?

the Welsh always whinge

There said it Cool

by SecretFly Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:15 pm

I have a funny feeling England will try to bamboozle Ireland with a bunch of rough and tough choke tackles of their own....just to show us they can do them too. Always try to get a psychological advantage over the opposition by imposing on them exactly what they were planning to impose on you.

So there could be quite a number of vicious physical choke tackle battles in the first 30 to 40 minutes of the game.

by HammerofThunor Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:02 pm

That'll be fun

by Gooseberry Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:42 pm

So long as they make sure they keep them around the chest and dont risk getting their fingers in someones mouth Im sure it will be fine....

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Gooseberry wrote:So long as they make sure they keep them around the chest and dont risk getting their fingers in someones mouth Im sure it will be fine....

by thebandwagonsociety Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:11 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:One other question about the legality of the choke tackle. The tackling team hold the man up until the ref shouts maul. At that point they collapse the maul in order to get a scrum. Why is it not a penalty to the other team for collapsing a maul?

You can't drag the maul down. Usually what happens if the choke tackle has turned into a maul is that the team in possession no longer have control of the ball. At that point, with the ref calling it a maul, all the team in possession can succeed in doing is to drive the 'maul' forward in the hope that in that momentum when it goes to ground the player in possession hits the deck or the ball appears into a playable position (ball available call) for their scrum half.

You are correct though, deliberately collapsing a maul is a penalty. And it could be called as a penalty against the defense or the team in possession, any deliberate act to collapse the maul can be pinged.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:05 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:One other question about the legality of the choke tackle. The tackling team hold the man up until the ref shouts maul. At that point they collapse the maul in order to get a scrum. Why is it not a penalty to the other team for collapsing a maul?

You can't drag the maul down. Usually what happens if the choke tackle has turned into a maul is that the team in possession no longer have control of the ball. At that point, with the ref calling it a maul, all the team in possession can succeed in doing is to drive the 'maul' forward in the hope that in that momentum when it goes to ground the player in possession hits the deck or the ball appears into a playable position (ball available call) for their scrum half.

You are correct though, deliberately collapsing a maul is a penalty. And it could be called as a penalty against the defense or the team in possession, any deliberate act to collapse the maul can be pinged.

Generally the defending team do their utmost to hold it up as if the ball carrier hits the ground you then have to try to hold him in such a way that he doesn't get an arm on the ground and it becomes a ruck.The ball carrier is normally the one who attempts to drag it down but I have never seen a player penalised for doing it even if it is technically an offense.

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