6N Round 3: Scotland v Italy, 28 February

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SCOTLAND v ITALY
Saturday 28 February 2015
KO 14:30 (GMT)
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC1

Referee: George Clancy (IRFU)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Leighton Hodges (WRU)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

A. Teams:

1. SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Tommy Seymour
13 Mark Bennett
12 Alex Dunbar
11 Sean Lamont
10 Peter Horne
09 Greig Laidlaw (capt)

01 Alasdair Dickinson
02 Ross Ford
03 Euan Murray
04 Tim Swinson
05 Jonny Gray
06 Rob Harley
07 Blair Cowan
08 Johnnie Beattie

16 Fraser Brown
17 Ryan Grant
18 Geoff Cross
19 Ben Toolis
20 Hamish Watson
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Greig Tonks
23 Matt Scott

2. ITALY

15 Luke McLean
14 Michele Visentin
13 Luca Morisi
12 Enrico Bacchin
11 Giovambattista Venditti
10 Kelly Haimona
09 Edoardo Gori

01 Matias Aguero
02 Leonardo Ghiraldini
03 Dario Chistolini
04 George Fabio Biagi
05 Joshua Furno
06 Francesco Minto
07 Simone Favaro
08 Sergio Parisse (capt)

16 Andrea Manici
17 Alberto De Marchi
18 Lorenzo Cittadini
19 Marco Fuser
20 Samuela Vunisa
21 Guglielmo Palazzani
22 Tommaso Allan
23 Giulio Bisegni.

B. Form (last 4 games):

1. SCOTLAND

15/02/15 - Scotland 23 - 26 Wales

07/02/15 - France 15 - 8 Scotland

22/11/14 - Scotland 37 - 12 Tonga

15/11/14 - Scotland 16 - 24 New Zealand

2. ITALY

14/02/15 - England 47 - 17 Italy

07/02/15 - Italy 3 - 26 Ireland

22/11/14 - Italy 6–22 South Africa

14/11/14 - Italy 18–20 Argentina

C. Head to Head:

21 Played 21

14 Wins 7

7 Losses 14

0 Draws 0

40 Tries 28

30 Conversions 23

58 Penalties 50

5 Drop Goals 6

475 Points 365

Steffan wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Notch wrote:

Steffan wrote:Get in there Italy

Two Scottish yellow cards at the end

You know the number one rule of forums? Don't be an ass. Sticking the foot in is really not on.

Haven't broken any house rules have I?

Yeah, but everyone here thinks you're a to$$er.

Aren't comments like this, especially from a MOD, against the house rules?

I know. I'd like to see the gutless pr!ck say this to my face as well

Now you're just getting excited. How hard is it to act like an adult on the internet? Grow up Steffan. Posting here is a privilege not a right and the forum is only enjoyable if people refrain from childishly goading one another.

Didn't see that coming!
Well done italy, feel for Scotland as against there were some high hopes going into the competition but the results are the same. I feel your pain after being there with Wales for many years.

Not a bad game though, the best side won in the end.

wales606 wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I honestly must say that I thought that Clancy had a very good game today. Normally I don't like him as he is very pedantic but today I thought he had a decent game.

As a neutral, I agree

Might not have been correct everytime, but no howlers and was fair to both sides - all you can ask for really

Scrums were a mess, felt he could have put the foot down earlier on them, but they are very tough to ref. Decent effort from Clancy though, first half was entertaining.

Anyway fellas it's just a game so calm down. Lets hope Wales beat France now

And Notch...despite calling me a to$$er I know you love me really


Regards

Wow. Brilliant driving mauls. Commiserations Scotland. France and Wales both away to Italy. Im sure Italy will now be thinking 2 possible victories, spirits up and home advantage.

Pretty shocked by that. Had high hopes for Scotland after the AI's again, but it looks like a probable white wash now. I thought they might score a few tries today, so put a couple of Scottish backs in to my ESPN team (Hogg and Seymour).

can someone tell my why our scrums and mauls have become mince ?

glasgow and edinburgh are pretty good vs treviso and zebre ! so wtf is going on ?

incidentally one of our weakest players was the one who had a decent game - swinston

VinceWLB wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I honestly must say that I thought that Clancy had a very good game today. Normally I don't like him as he is very pedantic but today I thought he had a decent game.

Was wrong at the last scrum but at least he had the balls to correctly award the penalty try.

He was good, but so far in this tournament glen Jackson has been the best!

Scotland have defended mauls very poorly in this championship. The penalty try were well worked, but the line outs shouldn't be engaged. We haven't played smartly today against some very predictable play. For the third game in a row we have given away too many penalties. We badly missed Gray snr too, the line out was much weaker without his disruptive presence. Credit to Italy for sticking to their gameplay and making it work. They deserved it today.

Risca Rev wrote:Pretty shocked by that. Had high hopes for Scotland after the AI's again, but it looks like a probable white wash now. I thought they might score a few tries today, so put a couple of Scottish backs in to my ESPN team (Hogg and Seymour).

I did the same.

Steffan wrote:Get in there Italy

Two Scottish yellow cards at the end

Get in there Steff!
Bet you'll be rooting for the Scots tomorrow mind ewe. Root away. I won't bite.

Mind your own ewe old boy!

Cambo wrote:Mind your own ewe old boy!

"ewe" and "old boy" in the same sentence? Steady on!

that's exactly what I meant when I was asking myself why some scots were talking in such a way.
it'll always be a battle, but I think today was well deserved from us. pity we don't have a kicker or it would never have been in question today.
now I leave, I'll be on my way to get drunk in few minutes, too happy to stay on a board..
see ya

aqualung71 wrote:that's exactly what I meant when I was asking myself why some scots were talking in such a way.
it'll always be a battle, but I think today was well deserved from us. pity we don't have a kicker or it would never have been in question today.
now I leave, I'll be on my way to get drunk in few minutes, too happy to stay on a board..
see ya

Aye and the England game might have been different too. You need a threat like Dominguez coz at the moment Haimona can't hit a ewe's backside with a banjo.

= Andy Nicol?
Poor bloke.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

The Saint wrote:Not too long before kick-off for the 'big one' now... I can't wait...

Thanks Saint.

I secretly can't wait for France to totally pump Wales a new hoop.
Well done Bru BTW!!

Chin up

I am not overly a fan of people doing this, just because they get wound up by a few people they don't even know on here.

Pretty depressing viewing this afternoon. The Italian mauling was technically superb and we had no answer, plus we handed out some cheap points. Still, better side won on the day, and we are officially the worst side in the 6 Nations, so any chat about kicking teams out ought to start with us.

Over to you Mr Cotter, how are you going to respond?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pretty depressing viewing this afternoon. The Italian mauling was technically superb and we had no answer,  plus we handed out some cheap points. Still, better side won on the day, and we are officially the worst side in the 6 Nations, so any chat about kicking teams out ought to start with us.

Over to you Mr Cotter, how are you going to respond?

Can you guys beat Ireland and England for us,

Thanks

Crap Cotter with a feckin capital feckin K

Another waste of money going to see so called professional rugby players play in a throughly depressing arena.

laidlaw - rubbish

Beattie rubbish

lamont rubbish

Toolis - wtf

watson utter lying rubbish - cant even face up to it

Crap and utter crap even that boobie Johnston did not get the spoon !!!!!

IanBru wrote:I hope you guys will forgive me spouting a little bit of awesome news. Not quite up there with RDW's loss of freedom and FES's loss of any free time, but after five years of trying, five years of gimping as a lowly paralegal, I have just secured a training contract with a law firm in Newcastle.

Yes, IanBru will be a solicitor.

Congratulations! Now, get those time sheets in.....

Bru- ya wee capitalist ya !!!!!

Well that was frustrating.. I think we need to find a solid 2nd choice fly half. Both Tonks and Horne haven't had a lot of international game time. Should have thrown Tonks on a bit earlier I think, but to be honest we made a lot of mistakes and got unlucky with that 2nd italian try off the bounce. Italy have certainly improved, they just need a few better backline players.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Crap Cotter with a feckin capital feckin K

Another waste of money going to see so called professional rugby players play in a throughly depressing arena.  

laidlaw - rubbish

Beattie rubbish

lamont rubbish

Toolis - wtf

watson utter lying rubbish - cant even face up to it

Crap and utter crap even that boobie Johnston did not get the spoon !!!!!

Top drawer griping. 10 out of 10.

Pretty dismal today.
Forwards were very poor, lack of physicality and technique. Not just the players on the pitch to blame but also the forwards coaches. Poor plans put in place and no plan B.
Backs had a lot of ball but didn't make good use of it. The outside backs can't be blamed too much for this as the ball was v slow getting to them, meaning by the time they were getting it the Italians were in their faces shutting it down.
Yet again some players basics were very poor, even at schoolboy level some of the mistakes made would not be acceptable.
In the pack Beattie was again poor, ford didn't seem quite himself today and didn't carry or impose himself like he has done recently. Cowan was good in the AI's but the last couple games I am having a few doubts about how effective he is. For me a big disappointment in the pack was rob Harley, he didn't impose himself on the Italians, missed a couple of tackles, wasn't as disruptive at the breakdown as he can and still isn't carrying the ball.
Peter Horne had some very good moments today but he wasn't able to control the game and put enough pressure on italy. His passing was accurate and did try get the ball wide as quick as possible and attack the line which were all positives. His missed kick to touch was inexcusable though.
Greig Laidlaw has to go. Poor performance yet again, slow ball, kicked aimlessly again, offered no threat himself and his leadership/decision making is just not good enough. He also doesn't question/speak to the referee properly. Instead of talking to the ref calmly and trying to get answers like robshaw, bod etc do he gets flustered and seems to have little influence which a good captain should be able to do.
There are positives as there are some v talented players like, Dunbar, Bennett, hogg, gray etc but there are players involved not up to it and I strongly believe some of the coaches aren't up to the job either.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Crap Cotter with a feckin capital feckin K

Another waste of money going to see so called professional rugby players play in a throughly depressing arena.  

laidlaw - rubbish

Beattie rubbish

lamont rubbish

Toolis - wtf

watson utter lying rubbish - cant even face up to it

Crap and utter crap even that boobie Johnston did not get the spoon !!!!!

Top drawer griping. 10 out of 10.

Cheers. All the best . No relegation or you would be down there with Zebre - welcome to Glasgow in a few weeks

Lol. I've missed 21st's nonsense

Wasn't able to watch this and I'm glad I didn't.

I am guessing Tom English at the Beeb summed this up correctly:

This was calamitous stuff and a reminder, in case it was needed, that Scotland, despite the impression of improvement, have a mightily long road ahead of them. The team is young and has promise but it's under-powered up front, it lacks leaders and discipline and against Italy it had a self-destructive naivety.

The question I want to ask, and forgive me of this sounds stupid. Why does every one play well against us?

Italy utterly capitulated against England ay Twickenham.

Wales too were mince against England in the second half in the 6N opener.

We weren't great but both teams played far better against us than they have against others.

Either I'm being stupid or just for to one eyed to understand what's going on. Everyone seems to raise their game against us.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The question I want to ask,  and forgive me of this sounds stupid.  Why does every one play well against us?

Italy utterly capitulated against England ay Twickenham.

Wales too were mince against England in the second half in the 6N opener.

We weren't great but both teams played far better against us than they have against others.

Either I'm being stupid or just for to one eyed to understand what's going on. Everyone seems to raise their game against us.

Afraid we don't exert enough control or make decisions at the right time for other teams not to have purple patches against us. For me we lack someone on the pitch who identifies when things are going wrong and gets the players round and says 'next five minutes lift it and focus on x', for example and presumably a message given at halftime, for a five minute patch after the break we drove it up the middle one out from rucks and made ground - presume Cotter had said 'we can't go wide too early, get ground first up the middle because we are letting the Italian defence just spreading itself, keep them honest'. But we quickly forgot and went back to headless chicken mode.
The really strange one for me was why was Horne kicking for touch at the end when at all other times Hogg had been doing the dead ball kicking - the logic was presumably he is left footed and he can get more ground down the touchline, and that underpins the lack of control and decision making in the team. Cool head would say bu@@er the distance we just need this thing it touch.

In short first step we need to find a captain who can lead better, and unfortunately that isn't Laidlaw (I know he wasn't on the pitch when Horne kicked to touch - but the principal of not pulling the players together at the right times still carries).

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The question I want to ask,  and forgive me of this sounds stupid.  Why does every one play well against us?

Italy utterly capitulated against England ay Twickenham.

Wales too were mince against England in the second half in the 6N opener.

We weren't great but both teams played far better against us than they have against others.

Either I'm being stupid or just for to one eyed to understand what's going on. Everyone seems to raise their game against us.

England seems to be a common denominator.  3rd best side in the world...and currently playing like they might be a notch or two above that even.

Not exactly a surprise why any side would struggle against them and perhaps have a better run against others.

So all we need is a captain and a pack. Simples.

For years Italy have shown us no respect - because we haven't earned it. We are in a permanent cycle of progress and setbacks, so none of the 6N sides fear us. If we have the ball long enough we wikl run out of ideas and give our opponents some chances. That's what VC uae to work on. We need to be able to execute a game plan under pressure and we need the right leaders on the park to do that.

We don't have many, so we need to start moulding them from players like Gray Jr, Dunbar and Hogg... Guys who will be around for a long time. It may help if Brown and Cussiter are back in the short term to help with that. Laidlaw is picked to lead and kick goals, but isn't playing well enough. It's a waste of time selecting a captain that won't get 80 mins, especially when the next best leadership options are also off ie Ford, Murray etc. We had a very naive side on at the end yesterday and they didn't know how to hold out.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The question I want to ask,  and forgive me of this sounds stupid.  Why does every one play well against us?

Italy utterly capitulated against England ay Twickenham.

Wales too were mince against England in the second half in the 6N opener.

We weren't great but both teams played far better against us than they have against others.

Either I'm being stupid or just for to one eyed to understand what's going on. Everyone seems to raise their game against us.

I genuinely think if you'd have switched on after the first try you could have won at a canter. Just seemed like concentration and intensity was the problem.

I always used to asked the same question re teams raising their standards against England. I bet the only two games you and France turn up for this year are against us!

Parisse is just such a legend! https://twitter.com/nik_simon88/status/571622401685004289

tigertattie wrote:(missed touch kick)Proof again that Horne is not cut out for international rugby

He pulled a calf muscle as he kicked it

Just about calmed down enough now.

Italy deserved the win - no doubt at all. Scotland had chances to win the game but did not take them.

Problems - lack of physicality in the pack and poor defence of the driving maul. Poor captaincy. Solution. Kelly Brown

Can we all consolidate here to eat junk food and operate a victim support group:
https://www.606v2.com/t57925-dear-vern

back to work. I'm very happy about the win. Watched again the match and it was a very good performance, in spite of a terrible start. We showed character to recover from a hurting 10-0, we conceded almost nothing to Scotland who, to be honest, tried ball in hand from every single inch of the pitch. And finally we had a bit of luck, a fortunate event with Horne's mistaken kick. Many times we messed up something that costed us the match, this time it went our way.
That said, of course we had the capacity and the will to score starting from our midfield, ut we would have lost without Horne's present, undeservedly I'd say.
Still I think we need another win to avoid wooden spoon, since I'm sure Scotland will win one of the two matches left, and, because our two strange first two games, we have a terrible point difference.
I realize we can't compete at this level without not a world-class, but even an average kicker. Nobody can gift oppositions with 9/12 points per game.
Then, amazed too see we have scored 6 tries in two matches, abroad, who'd have said that.
good luck for you next matches mates.

First things first, well done Aqualung (think you are the only Italian on the board), your team deserved their win. We struggled to break you down and whilst I think that was a combination of our own ineptitude and Italy’s defense, you managed to limit us to very few chances and took yours when they came.

Saturday was a terrible showing from Scotland, we played the same move time and time again and it got us nowhere. We pretty much signposted everything we were going to try. There was one point 3 players lined up next to each other, clearly with the view that the man in front was going to get the ball and the others were going to bind on to him. This is fine if it A) works and B) is not set up a good 2-3 mins before the ball gets to them, so the defense can easily see exactly what the plan is and compensate. There was no invention about the team and once Italy discovered we had no answer to the driving maul it was almost inevitable that we would lose the match.

TJ wrote:

tigertattie wrote:(missed touch kick)Proof again that Horne is not cut out for international rugby

He pulled a calf muscle as he kicked it

Don't put words in my mouth TJ! I never said "missed kicks"

I don't think he is cut out for international rugby as he did nothing of note all game! He ran sideways when he got the ball. They took all kicking responsibility away from him (expect the last one) to take some preassure off him, but he still looked like a headless chicken!

IMO I do not blame Horne for missing touch. I blame whoever asked him to kick it after not taking a single other kick all game!

tigertattie wrote:

TJ wrote:

tigertattie wrote:(missed touch kick)Proof again that Horne is not cut out for international rugby

He pulled a calf muscle as he kicked it

Don't put words in my mouth TJ! I never said "missed kicks"

I don't think he is cut out for international rugby as he did nothing of note all game! He ran sideways when he got the ball. They took all kicking responsibility away from him (expect the last one) to take some preassure off him, but he still looked like a headless chicken!

IMO I do not blame Horne for missing touch. I blame whoever asked him to kick it after not taking a single other kick all game!

I do!! Utterly useless for any pro player to miss touch in those circumstances, whether it be our fly half or tighthead prop. If I had done it I'd have collapsed to the floor and faked an injury as well. Pathetic.

tigertattie wrote:

TJ wrote:

tigertattie wrote:(missed touch kick)Proof again that Horne is not cut out for international rugby

He pulled a calf muscle as he kicked it

Don't put words in my mouth TJ! I never said "missed kicks"

I don't think he is cut out for international rugby as he did nothing of note all game! He ran sideways when he got the ball. They took all kicking responsibility away from him (expect the last one) to take some preassure off him, but he still looked like a headless chicken!

IMO I do not blame Horne for missing touch. I blame whoever asked him to kick it after not taking a single other kick all game!

I really don not get this

We were all discussing during the match how well he was playing. I thought he was measured and assure of himself and played well until the kick. I actually thought he played better than Finn has done over the last two game (more assured - less watching behind fingers). I realise that Finn can do magic, but I also realise he generally makes some large errors too (young and developing so am ok with this)

If Horne did not miss that kick, I am not sure all the negative feed back would be his way

But I really think he was dammed from the moment he was selected, as many almost seem to want him to fail before we started - yet he has been in form before - so had every right be to be selected

Risky - I don't think he had a particularly bad game (without having a particularly good one), but I take exception to any suggestion that he should not be blamed for missing a crucial kick to touch. In those circumstances it was bordering on the criminal.

I don't think he's a good as Russell, but you are right to point out that Russell has not played particularly well this tournament, and that up to that moment there was little to split Horne and Russell based on performance (although in my view a great deal in terms of potential).

I may be mis-remembering here, but did Russell not also miss an important touch-finder that led to the ultimately decisive second Welsh try a couple of weeks back? The fact that it happened after about an hour doesn't make him any less culpable than Horne the other day, who appears to be attracting dog's abuse for making his error with time all but up. I thought that Horne had looked perfectly decent for long stretches before that, no better but certainly not much worse than Russell in his two matches to date.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Risky - I don't think he had a particularly bad game (without having a particularly good one), but I take exception to any suggestion that he should not be blamed for missing a crucial kick to touch. In those circumstances it was bordering on the criminal.

I don't think he's a good as Russell, but you are right to point out that Russell has not played particularly well this tournament, and that up to that moment there was little to split Horne and Russell based on performance (although in my view a great deal in terms of potential).

FES - I agree - he should not have missed the kick and rightly should be blamed for that - but the pillaring he is getting is so unjust

I seem to remember a certain player missing touch in the last game too. But that seems to be forgotten

I would also agree that Finn has more potential (but potential is really a dangerous one to base a player on as it may not come on), but I am happy to have them both - one a slightly safer option (But still a good player) and one a more exciting player that may be able to do more

captain carrantuohil wrote:I may be mis-remembering here, but did Russell not also miss an important touch-finder that led to the ultimately decisive second Welsh try a couple of weeks back? The fact that it happened after about an hour doesn't make him any less culpable than Horne the other day, who appears to be attracting dog's abuse for making his error with time all but up. I thought that Horne had looked perfectly decent for long stretches before that, no better but certainly not much worse than Russell in his two matches to date.

You are not and it is certainly double standards

But as I said - he was dammed before he started as supporter almost wanted him to fail so they could say - I told you so....

I would never want a scotland player to fail so I could say "I told you so"

I used to rant about marcus di rollo but would always say "go out there and prove me wrong"

I just think it was madness to select Horne who for all intense purposes is a club team's third choice stand off! His natural position is inside centre which makes the selection ever more strange!

Now, I'm not saying that Vern was wrong to pick Horne as such, he was left with little option! But What I am saying is that the game showed that Horne is not cut out to be an international stand off. I don't think he has it to be an international 12 either!

If I was in Vern's shoes I would either have gone with SHC and Tonks at 10 or even Heathcote at 10

By no means am I saying the result would have been different with either of those two playing over Horne! But when I see Horne playing for Scotland, he just looks like a decent club squad member who has gone out of his depth! In the game on Sat, even with the majority of kicking responsibility being taken away from him, he still did nothing of note to make the backline function! He was praised as being a running, play making stand off but he never made any plays!

tigertattie wrote:If I was in Vern's shoes I would either have gone with SHC and Tonks at 10 or even Heathcote at 10

Can't agree with that. Heathcote is on dreadful form, even his goal kicking is all over the shop at the moment.

tigertattie wrote:I would never want a scotland player to fail so I could say "I told you so"

I used to rant about marcus di rollo but would always say "go out there and prove me wrong"

I just think it was madness to select Horne who for all intense purposes is a club team's third choice stand off! His natural position is inside centre which makes the selection ever more strange!

Now, I'm not saying that Vern was wrong to pick Horne as such, he was left with little option! But What I am saying is that the game showed that Horne is not cut out to be an international stand off. I don't think he has it to be an international 12 either!

If I was in Vern's shoes I would either have gone with SHC and Tonks at 10 or even Heathcote at 10

By no means am I saying the result would have been different with either of those two playing over Horne! But when I see Horne playing for Scotland, he just looks like a decent club squad member who has gone out of his depth! In the game on Sat, even with the majority of kicking responsibility being taken away from him, he still did nothing of note to make the backline function! He was praised as being a running, play making stand off but he never made any plays!

Yet this performance was as good (and in my opinion better) as Finn has been in the last few games - so that is why I am shocked at the feed back