Murray: under appreciated or overrated?

First topic message reminder :

I would say overrated    

But what do other members of 606v2 think?

It has nothing to do with coming from a privileged background its do with drive and ambition. Gulbis is an example of being privileged spoilt and coddled with masses of talent and no drive. Passion for the sport, ambition and the will to win must be an essential part of a players game. I do believe Murray has all that and then some.. it all comes back to the mental component. Im not sure any coach can instill in him whats missing.. only Andy can do that. I dont feel that Andy believes in himself enough to overcome his demons and he is leaving it dangerously late.

True, that's why what I've said a few posts back about his lack of "round" thingies, springs to mind

Jahu wrote:True, that's why what I've said a few posts back about his lack of "round" thingies, springs to mind

It has nothing to do with his lack of courage if thats what you are TRYING to say. He has that in abundance.
What courage it took for him to take to the court with Djokovic to put on a show for the crowd because the King abdicated from the final at APT Tour final in London. Andy had had a terrible showing at the APT in Wembly, he got trounced. But in order to give his home crowd something he went on court to put on a show. That took those ROUND THINGS you are speaking of Jahu
I took my hat of to him for that

Oh so one thing happens and its suddenly proves he has them?

I'm talking about his play style and how with all the power and body he has (though surely after back surgery I have my doubts he is 100%), he should crush easy anyone outside of top 3, and with hard-play any of the top 3 as well.

Just a little mind wondering on his brain, as he has all the tools to kick ass, yet somehow only under Lendl he managed to use them all, and most of us here do agree he needed/needs  a Father figure.

Maybe the back surgery after Lendl went away, has corresponded to him melting down.

And sure he has those round things, just not sure about the right required size for what he can achieve.

Settle down now, don't start me like HN the other night

You sure as hell know how to kill a thread

Wrong message to wrong poster

Then do what I advised the first time... put your brain in gear before you open your mouth and stop talking about B@LLS try growing some yourself !!!

Oh damn, see my above post, I thought I was talking to HE.

That's why I said don't start me like HN that night.

Was hoping at least you pay more attention to my posts then myself.

I changed that bad word to "round" things, give me some credit, and now you are using it.

Some one slap me quickly, wake me up.

Jahu wrote:Oh so one thing happens and its suddenly proves he has them?

I'm talking about his play style and how with all the power and body he has (though surely after back surgery I have my doubts he is 100%), he should crush easy anyone outside of top 3, and with hard-play any of the top 3 as well.

Just a little mind wondering on his brain, as he has all the tools to kick ass, yet somehow only under Lendl he managed to use them all, and most of us here do agree he needed/needs  a Father figure.

Maybe the back surgery after Lendl went away, has corresponded to him melting down.

And sure he has those round things, just not sure about the right required size for what he can achieve.

It's very hard to say what he lacks. He has immense fighting spirit and ability under pressure - look at the way he saved those MPs versus Robredo in Valencia. He doesn't lack courage. However, he generally seems very risk averse. The 2nd serve is a prime example. He obviously could hit it far harder but he has clearly taken the view that the percentages work in favour of rolling it in and relying on his superior game to then still win the point. Unfortunately against Novak or Rafa that has never worked.

Good post Slippy.

Yes, his first serve is a rocket, then the second one WTA style, at least a little more power, a few easier points off second serve.

Agree that he likes to hold back and play the % game, and a little too confident on his body/power to not give up and hold on, but as you say against Novak/Rafa, that's nearly suicide.

Lets see how 2015 rolls on, maybe his back stuff will be history, and he can finally kick the top 8 in the "round" things properly

Would love a AO for him, and see him go at 5 GS.

One should always assess their own cojones before taking to slagging off another's lack of them.  Now back on topic if muzz had 4 slams. What would the answer be ? I'd say he might have overachieved myself

That's like saying, look your self in the mirror before you criticize (insert your fav celeb here)?

While it's true, one should mind their own stuff, talking about celebs and sports people, kind of does not work that way.

4 slams would be about average of what I would except of him, but counting so many GS SF/F, that would not be a killer number either, average to a little weak.

Fair enough. However expect criticism if you claim someone you dont know is a small balled coward especially when it blatantly ignores the many good things he has done. What you're doing isn't criticising  it's blatantly and ignorantly insulting    Hence the negative reaction

I never complain about others punching me, I mostly invite them consciously.

And I never ignored his many good things, not stating them is not ignoring them.

Also the OP was about his Tennis under appreciated or overrated thing, not his out of court deeds.

temporary21 wrote:Fair enough. However expect criticism if you claim someone you dont know is a small balled coward especially when it blatantly ignores the many good things he has done

Well Murray isn't and most of us would acknowledge that. Im not necessarily an Andy fan but I think that is is an unfair and unjust criticism from only one poster and frankly t21 it is giving it  credence by responding to  it any further  

Thanks HN for supporting my views.

Temp21 is my friend too now

back to topic now!!!

I no talk no more.

temporary21 wrote:He's also done enormous amounts for charity and for sport on the country as a whole.  May I also ask how you think it necessary to character assassinate somebody you don't know anything about in reality? Why does convincing people that Murray is pathetic mAtter to you soo much?

Was that aimed at me? I haven't said anything about Murray's character here. I was talking about his game. I believe as far as tennis talent goes he is overrated.

temporary21 wrote:I didn't intend to degrade others. The intention was to show how much he's done at his state of life.  Probably more than we have done as a counter to people calling him coddled spoilt and pathetic. Which I think. Quite frankly is codswallop. Federer had a privileged life too but he's still darn well earned what he's got

This is off topic but I've always had a feeling that rather than being coddled and spoiled being trained from a young age to play tennis can be almost cruel depending on the child's personality. Murray may be rich but he's never struck me as particularly happy either off or on court. I can't imagine how anyone could watch him play tennis and come away thinking tennis is a fun career.

Having said what I have said about Andy on court, I do have to agree with your last statement HE. No one had a more brutal regime than Nadal or indeed Agassi when they were young yet have managed to come out of it the other side loving their sport and showing it.  On the other hand, Lendl had a pretty tough time as a kid and my word couldn't you see it .... Points given for the last time you saw him smile

It is a shame but clearly evident of hawkeye's double standards here. Myself and others have pointed out Andy's strengths and we have been ticked off for being off-topic by hawkeye. Fair enough I can live with that. Jahu then spends half of the thread obsessing about the size of Andy's man parts and do we hear a word of ticking off from hawkeye? No.

Well have a Merry Xmas everyone and I pray to god I do not bump into Jahu on these dark winter nights as I feel my man parts may be in danger due to his obsession over these.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is a shame but clearly evident of hawkeye's double standards here. Myself and others have pointed out Andy's strengths and we have been ticked off for being off-topic by hawkeye. Fair enough I can live with that. Jahu then spends half of the thread obsessing about the size of Andy's man parts and do we hear a word of ticking off from hawkeye? No.

Well have a Merry Xmas everyone and I pray to god I do not bump into Jahu on these dark winter nights as I feel my man parts may be in danger due to his obsession over these.

Merry Christmas CC and to think us Rafa fans were accused of being obsessed with his biceps
I think there will be a few surprises in 2015

Haddie-nuff wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is a shame but clearly evident of hawkeye's double standards here. Myself and others have pointed out Andy's strengths and we have been ticked off for being off-topic by hawkeye. Fair enough I can live with that. Jahu then spends half of the thread obsessing about the size of Andy's man parts and do we hear a word of ticking off from hawkeye? No.

Well have a Merry Xmas everyone and I pray to god I do not bump into Jahu on these dark winter nights as I feel my man parts may be in danger due to his obsession over these.

Merry Christmas CC and to think us Rafa fans were accused of being obsessed with his biceps
I think there will be a few surprises in 2015

Merry Xmas Haddie.

Have a great yuletide and here's hoping for a great 2015.

CC, I have congratulatesld you the Xmass 50 posts ahead.

Took you 3 days to get a grip on Andys rounds, and clear your head and come back a happy'ish man again.

So hoping to you becoming a happier and spite'less scott, I wish you a Marry Xmass again )

HN, same to you, my secret beauty

P.S: CC since I am far away, your man rounds are safe, but do send me a pic, you chicken

Jahu wrote:CC, I have congratulatesld you the Xmass 50 posts ahead.

Took you 3 days to get a grip on Andys rounds, and clear your head and come back a happy'ish man again.

So hoping to you becoming a happier and spite'less scott, I wish you a Marry Xmass again )

HN, same to you, my secret beauty

P.S: CC since I am far away, your man rounds are safe, but do send me a pic, you chicken

I shall send your post to Bletchley Park - hopefully they can make sense of it because I can't.

Still waiting for your Marry Xmass greeting

Are you selfish or are you selfish?

Try the Doughnut, Cheltenham. Bletchley is off the grid.

Merry Xmas Jahu and since you are incapable of growing a pair I hope you get a pair for Xmas and I am sure Roger Federer would take great pleasure in signing them for you.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Merry Xmas Jahu and since you are incapable of growing a pair I hope you get a pair for Xmas and I am sure Roger Federer would take great pleasure in signing them for you.

Didn't he lose his at the  World Tour Final

CaledonianCraig wrote:Merry Xmas Jahu and since you are incapable of growing a pair I hope you get a pair for Xmas and I am sure Roger Federer would take great pleasure in signing them for you.

Thanks CC.

All the best to you and your loved ones

HN, stop playing with "those" things now.

You critisized me for them, now you can't leave them alone

Thats enough smut I think, keep it back on the topic.

On the similar thread about Nadal the comments included many weaselly arguments about why he wasn't as good as his stats indicated, that he wasn't really talented and there was a lot of talk about "dislike". I wasn't convinced. Arguing that a 14 time slam winner and GOAT candidate is over-rated just proves that he is under appreciated.  

With a 16-1 vote that Murray was under-appreciated with the argument being he was much better than his stats. Technical criticism of his game was countered with arguments about how "nice" he was. Tennis ability was split into two area's in a weaselly way to bump up his credentials. The important or special bit that apparently he has more of than Djokovic and another easy bit (that Djokovic was better than him at) that could easily be fixed by having a well paid multi slam winning champion shout at him. This proved my suspicion that Murray is over-rated here on 606v2


 

I'm assuming that you were the 1 in the 16-1 vote HE So I don't really think this 'proves your suspicion that Murray is over-rated' as you are assuming that you are correct and the other 16 who voted are wrong. I haven't actually voted as there were only two choices and as I said in my first post on the thread that I think he is currently rated just about right. If he wins more slams then he could conceivably be rated higher. If he doesn't I think that his record up until now stll qualifies him for the rating he currently has.

Anyway still waiting for you to name the top 100 players outside of the top 3 who deserve to be rated higher than Murray given his record between 2008 and 2013 and why you think they qualify.

Oh right so because the poll categorically goes against how you wanted it to go it proves people over-rate him?

Sorry but you evidently chose to ignore pertinent facts and stats that Murray has amassed.

I do believe he is one of only ten players in the open era to have reached at least the slam semi of each slam in a calendar year. 

Also believe it is a similar type stat for havhaving reached each slam semi at least twice.

Six times a slam finalist is something that has only been achieved by precious few in this century.

An Olympic Champion.

In top twenty of most successful in Masters series of all-time.

All of the above he has achieved despite being handicapped with the poorest second serve of any top player I can recall and having consistency issues so he must be doing a heck of a lot right in other parts of his game to achieve those stats.

I do love HE's logic that 16 out of 17 people think Murray is underappreciated is evidence that he is overrated. The CV of the man really speaks for itself. He did have a poor season this year by his high standards but in Tennis all it takes is a good run of form and a few big trophies to completely turn the script around.

How about an option for neither overrated or underrated or is HE unable to fathom that some people might consider that he falls in between.

Infact I've noticed that all of HE's polls are either or with no in between. This is a not so subtle form of manipulation forcing people to take sides. It shows that the person initiating the debate is not actually interested in the process. They just want their opinion to be substantiated by a vote. I object to this type of childish point scoring.

I have to say I didn't vote either.. I don't like yes no answers

Murray v Nadal at 1 UK time today. Might be an early indication of what shape they are in for the New Year.

I am not sure a lot can be read into this though. Murray leads 3-0 but Rafa looking understandably rusty. I suppose a win for Murray would provide a confidence booster for him which would be very welcome at this early stage.

It's important for Andy, confidence wise. He needs wins against the top guys. Doesn't matter what the situation is. For Rafa, I agree that very little should be read into it.

There's some good tennis being played though. It's entertaining.

Relatively important for both confidence wise i would have thought. Rafa has to be a little concerned about his game after so long out and getting a hammering here will be worrying. Murray looking a lot fitter than at any stage last year. Promising signs for him.

I know it doesn't seem like it by the scoreline, but Nadal has improved in the second set compared to the first.

Murray playing very well on the big points. The score is incredibly harsh on Rafa. It's never a 6/2 5/0 up to now. Rafa has had 12 break points but Murray has played superbly on them.

Only thing for Andy, his first serve has deserted him in clutch moments. He has had to play great behind his second serve.

That is the most evenly contested 6/0 set I've ever seen.

Murray played really well, Nadal as expected unfortunately.

Andy Murray wins 6-2 6-0 against Nadal. A nice confidence-booster but lets not read too much into it just yet.

Danny_1982 wrote:That is the most evenly contested 6/0 set I've ever seen.

True, but tennis is about the big points, and if Nadal can't convert any of his million break points the scoreline won't look good for him; simple really.

Nadal really needs some game time ahead of the Aus Open, he's having a match tomorrow and then needs to win atleast 2-3 matches in Doha.

Good thing for Rafa is he was moving very well. He also played some good enough stuff to earn 12 or 13 break points. The more tennis he plays, the better he'll do at the important moments.

Main worry for Rafa must be the serve. I think he only won 4 points behind it in the 2nd set. Murray was dealing with it easily. Hard to tell if he was a little down on pace compared to normal.