Maximum distance to fairway?

 One of the lady members at our club is getting a little vexed that a couple of the holes (both par 3s as it happens) have a "carry" of over 125 yards to clear the initial rough and get to either the fringe or green. Her argument is that there should be a maximum distance of 80 yards of rough from the ladies tee which is certainly news to me.

On our committee so trying to find anything written either way but drawing a blank. Has anyone ever heard of anything as guidelines regarding distances other than for the par of a hole?

tell her to grow a pair or join the local pitch and putt course would be my suggestion

The rules of golf do not contain any stipulations on minimum carry to the fairway from the tee but logic would tell you that 125 is way too far. For non single figure players (of any sex) and juniors 125 yards to reach the fairway is extremely far. Courses should be set up to include as many holes as possible that are playable for all. A long forced carry from the tee does nothing to challenge the better player and offers no interest for anyone else.

I played a course here in Thailand which has 36 holes. Every par 3 (which there are 8 in total) has water all the way to the green. Not only boring design in my opinion but very challenging for the below par (not under par) player.

IMO 125 is pushing it to be equitable to all golfers. We've got a few (not only ladies) that would struggle to make that and some of them are the keenest golfists we've got that simply love the game despite never being able to challenge for anything even off 28 (or 36). To effectively discourage these people from playing would seem like an instance of golf shooting itself in the foot. Trick up the landing area for better golfers by all means, but let everyone get along the whole hole.

125 yards is much too far, especially if it's over water or bushes.

Instead of hacking rough or bushes back, or filling in lakes, build another set of tees so that 75 yards is the furthest someone has to hit it through the air to the fairway.

Wasn't it Nick Price who stopped playing the US Open after 2002 because he couldn't reach some of the fairways at Bethpage?

Hate forced carries from forward tees on any golf course, quite apart from indignity of players not carrying the required distance, pace of play becomes an issue too.

If you want to send hackers (like me) away, insist on forced carries.
If you want to attract more play, moderate or build new tees as George recommends.

McLaren wrote:The rules of golf do not contain any stipulations on minimum carry to the fairway from the tee but logic would tell you that 125 is way too far.  For non single figure players (of any sex) and juniors 125 yards to reach the fairway is extremely far.  Courses should be set up to include as many holes as possible that are playable for all.  A long forced carry from the tee does nothing to challenge the better player and offers no interest for anyone else.  

Mac, I completely disagree, Why ruin the hole for everyone else simply because a few choppers can't carry the ball the distance the rest of us can hit a 9i/Wedge. 125 yards is NOTHING in terms of carry, and most 24 handicappers could carry that. If you can't, guess what, get down the range and practice until you can, or play an easier course, or be happy not getting a par and play it as a two shotter.

Build a forward tee for those who are struggling if you absolutely must.

If the carry was only 80 yards, why even bother having it in the first place, just fill it in, just incase a few 4 year olds can't carry it.

You don't have to change a hole to make it playable for all, you just have to have an ability rated set of tees for all.
Mac, If you put your preconceptions and misinformation aside, you'd see how The Castle is designed with that very idea in mind. The course is playable for all levels, and the variety of tees on offer doesn't ruin the course for anyone else.

It's not just Bethpage black either !  Their "easier" courses also have some long carries to the fairway. In addition, some of the par 3 holes consist of elevated tee, elevated green, and a valley of rough in between.  Distance probably 150-160 from front tees.  A lot of golfers end up hitting out of the rough with a severe uphill lie for their second shot.  Waits get pretty bad at weekends.  One of my memorable moments on the Black last fall was the one time my drive reached the fairway on the first hole.  But I bought a new driver last night so I expect to hit every fairway tomorrow !  

Super, how would it ruin the hole for players like you if there were a shorter carry to the fairway ? Surely the main impact for you would be that speed of play would be improved if you had the misfortune to be paired with someone like me ?

It would potentially ruin the visual appeal and moderate challenge of a hole.
What's wrong with putting in an extra tee?

I don't think super understands there could be elderly people who still wish to take part in competitions. Alternative tees are fine for casual play, but if (for example) an elderly gentleman who plays off 18+ and can maybe hit the ball 150 yards (including roll) at a time, can still reach pretty much any par 4 in nett regulation and be competetive - why penalize them just because they can't consistently carry 130 yards?

As others have said, this has no effect whatsoever on better players/longer hitters - they are never in that area anyway. Visual appeal? What's visually appealing about long rough?

Thanks for the thoughts..might look at bringing one of the two holes back to around 100 yards, I think anything more wouldn't look right within the hole.
Both the carries are only over rough, cut to around 3½ inches usually, and were intended to stop the duffed tee shots from rolling all the way to the green, so are playable usually at the cost of a shot for most people. Just some of the shorter hitters think it unfair that they can't reach a green off a 20+ handicap but to my mind that's why you have the handicap, that's the challenge.
People concerned often play for the club and say that our Club's handicaps don't travel well so would seem counter productive to make any hole any easier.

McLaren wrote:  For non single figure players (of any sex) 125 yards to reach the fairway is extremely far.    

Although the rest of your post is broadly reasonable, this comment is a total joke. I would expect a 12 handicapper to be able to hit the ball 125 yards, and a 15 handicapper, and a 24 handicapper.

The answer is of course that the course should have different tees to suit the ability of the players it wants to attract. If the course wants to position itself as a tough championship course that might mean 200+ yard carries to the fairway. If the course wants to be playable to all well then that's another question

Im a 20hc hacker. Id have no issues with a 125 to a fairway over rough. A very small bit of water within 10yards to carry..then im screwed.

Yes, but women, juniors, seniors and novices might have difficulty with 125 yards.

Build some more tees further up the hole, and stop thinking in terms of competition, mens, and ladies tees.

They are just tees. Play off the one you are comfortable with, or whatever is stipulated in competition.

George1507 wrote:Yes, but women, juniors, seniors and novices might have difficulty with 125 yards.

Build some more tees further up the hole, and stop thinking in terms of competition, mens, and ladies tees.

They are just tees. Play off the one you are comfortable with, or whatever is stipulated in competition.

That's pretty much what I said earlier, George .. but think of those women, juniors and seniors who might want to play comps. In a comp you have no choice of tee. They may still be able to get it around according to their h/c, playing bogey golf but put a long (by their standards) forced carry in there and they are struggling to make double or even triple bogey. A course should be challenging for all standards, but not impossible

I can hit it 250 yards, but sometimes it doesn't go straight. While you're shortening the carries perhaps you can widen the fairways and remove the bunkers too?

Nobody said you should play off those tees SJ.

SmithersJones wrote:I can hit it 250 yards, but sometimes it doesn't go straight. While you're shortening the carries perhaps you can widen the fairways and remove the bunkers too?

It's amazing how many people forget that golf is a game and is supposed to be fun as well as challenging. You may not always hit the fairway, but imagine that it is just impossible for you ever to hit it. Do you get some sort of sadistic pleasure when you hit the ball far and the lesser mortals around you can't?

Shouldn't good par 3 design stagger the tees so that the big boys have an all carry hole, and the shortest tee perhaps has minimal carry or maybe no carry if the tee is aligned at the side of the hazard (if possible)?

lorus59 wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:I can hit it 250 yards, but sometimes it doesn't go straight. While you're shortening the carries perhaps you can widen the fairways and remove the bunkers too?

It's amazing how many people forget that golf is a game and is supposed to be fun as well as challenging. You may not always hit the fairway, but imagine that it is just impossible for you ever to hit it. Do you get some sort of sadistic pleasure when you hit the ball far and the lesser mortals around you can't?

I'm amazed by the number of people I see turning up at Open Championship courses and asking to play off the back tees. It seems to me, the higher the handicap, the more likely they are to want to play off the championship tees. And (if allowed) they slog round, lose balls, hold up play, and finish looking exhausted.

Why this is so, I have no idea. Maybe they think they aren't getting their money's worth if they don't play every last yard of the course. Personally, I know my limitations. Playing off the back tees at Troon or Carnoustie or Birkdale (especially in bad weather) has no appeal at all.

lorus59 wrote:
You may not always hit the fairway, but imagine that it is just impossible for you ever to hit it.

I don't need to imagine this, sounds like my average round

George1507 wrote:
I'm amazed by the number of people I see turning up at Open Championship courses and asking to play off the back tees. It seems to me, the higher the handicap, the more likely they are to want to play off the championship tees. And (if allowed) they slog round, lose balls, hold up play, and finish looking exhausted.

Why this is so, I have no idea. Maybe they think they aren't getting their money's worth if they don't play every last yard of the course. Personally, I know my limitations. Playing off the back tees at Troon or Carnoustie or Birkdale (especially in bad weather) has no appeal at all.

I get this. It's an experience to play the exact same conditions as a professional in a major. If you're going to play an Open course many people want to get the full insight as to what its like. The Grove runs regular "back on black" events where the course is set up as it was for the WGC, apparently these are really popular.

Personally if I played an Open course I would probably choose the white / medal tees because I'm not a masochist, but I do understand why people do this.

The guys we played with at Turnberry took caddies and before the first tee the caddies asked do you want to enjoy it? When met with a yes, they simply said well play from the yellows then. We did and they were right. Obviously we had a look at/from the champ tees but in playability terms it would have been pointless (possibly literally for me!!!)

I understand wanting to appreciate the pro perspective from the back tees, but jeez it'd be a slog from them for probably 98% of golfers and unless you were absolutely on top of every bit of your game, I think you would lose quite a lot of enjoyment (and I'd be down to Molitors in about 6 holes!).

Surely if you want to see it from the pro's perspective by playing from the champ tees, you're only really playing the tee shots from the pro's perspective! Unless any of us hit it pro lengths, and i don't, you're more likely to be playing the rest of the course (ie shots into greens) from the pro's perspective if playing from the shorter tees

The good long courses I've played, like say the Grove and Rockcliffe, have numerous tees and they all provide a test in their own ways. Rockcliffe is a monster of the very back tees but even for a hacker like me if perfectly playable off the yellows.
For me a good course layout like Rockcliffe has holes which can tempt you with a longish carry, say over water, or have a bail out option out wide if its blowing a gale and want to be able to play the hole without putting 10 balls in the water.
Funnily enough I don't mind water carry's but put 100 yards of heather in front of me(which is a lot of holes at Walton Heath as I remember though I've tried hard to forget the experience) and I'm a quivering wreck.

6500 yards is about the limit I would use when selecting tees. Even that can be way too long in a strong wind.

I think up to 6800 is manageable, I do however prefer shorter courses, not because they are deemed easier, but I prefer to play a variety of shots and clubs off tees and the holes tend to be more interesting and quirky to make up for the lack of distance.

I find the type of golf your average club hacker plays (reach for the driver on every hole) to be terribly boring.

Super

It is why North Berwick is one of the finest experiences in golf.

Not to say short holes can't be rubbish though, 9 and 10 on TOC being prime examples.