"Hating" England

ok firstly, sorry for the title to any English fans, this is not intended to insult England at all (god knows there is too much of that on here anyway). Instead what I wanted to discuss is this whole obsession with other 6N teams hating England as shown in a recent leaked clip from the BBC (although meant in good humour).

This has again become headline news at the BBC with Nowell claiming that Wales hate England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26443654 ) and I would really like to dispel this kind of thing. I have recently moved from north wales to Cardiff for university and I found it surprising and disappointing at how my English housemates and new rugby mates viewed the welsh in regards to them hating the English, some of them claiming that since moving to wales they now dislike the welsh rugby team, not because of the team itself (although like any team, there are a few man parts), but instead because of the fans. I have to say I find this opinion very upsetting especially as Wales fans were known for being immensely passionate fans, but not for hating other teams. What is more upsetting for me is the fact that it doesn't in large seem to be true welsh rugby fans but instead the bandwagon fans who think hating England is all part of it.

Yes there is a deep history between our two nations, which has stemmed a rivalry over hundreds of years, however rivalry in rugby terms is not about hate but respect, rugby is about how you give it your all for 80minutes on that pitch and you put your body on the line for your team, but hate should never come into it. I will admit as a youngster I used to dislike England, some of their players attitudes and their style of play, however I have always respected some of their players and their dedication to the sport such as moody, Wilkinson, Robinson etc, and now especially since Lancaster has taken over I have a huge amount of respect for him and his team, turning it round from a frankly disappointing and slightly humiliating world cup, to a core group of individuals who may not be the best in the world, but actually define what rugby is about, being a team! The players under Lancaster show a lot more humility than under Johnson and while some such as Ashton and Farell may appear cocky on the pitch, off the pitch they come across as very modest and respectful young men.

Anyway back to the topic of "hating" England, can I just say to all England fans, I remember hearing somewhere (it may a famous quote from a book, film etc whatever) that a person is judge not on the success of himself but on the success on his enemies, or something similar, and that for me sums up the feelings between us welsh, to you English. Ignoring the history between our countries (of which there is a huge amount and has a massive influence on our rivalry) but instead focussing on England's rugby history, first and so far only NH WC winners, biggest pool of players in the world and there many accolades, and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

Anyway to English fans, pob lwc for sunday (although not enough to help you win!! ) and I hope the banter on here after can be less personal!

Nice write up and place in the UN for you. I will remember history and keep on hating.

welshy824 (new) wrote:

and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

gosh...thought you were a kiwi for a minute until I realised we have catipulted to 4 million.

You may wish to dispel the hate but Stewie doesn't….usually it is Gats who does PsyWar Ops but this time it's Stewie. Lawes has already won the line out, Rowntree is lauding our cheating front row and Stewie is 'targeting' Doc, Taulupe and Hibbard, sorry, Stewie has got Hartley to say he is targeting Doc et al.
It's empty fighting talk from a team humiliated only a year ago…..arrogance and ignorance in the same package. This England team has failed to beat Wales under Lancaster and, in 160 minutes of rugby has failed even to cross the whitewash.
Meanwhile the Double Champions are quietly going about their business and will put these pretenders back in their box come the weekend.

Welshy824, best post I have seen on 606v2.

As an Englishman, I have had a similar experience whereby to me, the rivalry was friendly, then for some, things got nasty.

For those who play at any level, or are involved in the game, there is a true respect from here, for the Welsh squad and their ability. The ties between the two countries (and for likes of me, living very close to Wales) should always be positive and mutually beneficial.

It should be a great game on Sunday, which can only be made better by a respectful rivalry. This is how the Eng v Ire match was seen, win or lose, I really hope it's similar with Eng v Wales.

Welshy, this is an excellent topic.

The problem with public perception is that those who spout negativities about any third party overshadows that of the positive thinkers or those who have a positive outlook on said third party.

It is just the way it is, compare it to someone working for a boss who hardly ever says anything negative to his staff members, but if he does the staff members will always remember the few times he has been nasty, but will never remember the good things he said or did.

I think those who hate Wales are in the minority, they are just more outspoken than those who doesn't.

Its true Biltong, we forget all the nice things Rainbow Warrior, The Saint and Scratch have had to say about England and just focus on the negatives. People used to be really down on the south africans forgetting all the good things they did like cheap fruit.

I've just had a first read of Nowell and Care's comments - I'd have to say they are really foolish and unnecessary - even IF they themselves feel they are true !  Each is either a little naïve or foolish, but the England management should have warned them off such comments.

By comparison, from a quick skim through, the lovely Dylan Hartley's comments seem respectful - of the Welsh players' ability and rugby threat.  Mr Hartley, are you growing old and wise ?! 

They are of course also forgetting this http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7949738.stm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They are of course also forgetting this http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7949738.stm

Not forgotten, I thought Gatland saying that was bizarre, and rather (searching for another word) stupid.

Was it not Scot Quinell a few years back who said we hate losing to England, any other team it does not matter. But so long has we beat the English?

In truth i don't any team really hates any other team it is just a term of phrase to gee up their own players and get them up for the fight. ( game of rugby) and not fighting a war.

To be fair to Nowell he's talking about the Welsh team not a wider view of the fans. Think Hartley's said that you need emotion to push you on in rugby and this fits in a similar vein. As long as you don't push too far and lose perspective in what you're doing it's no big deal.

It's rather simple really. Hate is born of jealousy, and constant jibes the children of insecurity.

As an Englishman I have visited all of the Six Nations grounds. Mostly I have experienced good natured banter on all sides. The only ground where a substantial minority move beyond that into nationalistic bigotry is Murrayfield. It is certainly the only ground where the pre match 'entertainment' (i.e. The Braveheart nonsense) has the feel of being not just pro the home team but anti English.

At any club I belonged to the object was to make your visitors welcome and to make new friends. The SRU seem to have lost that.

I remember going to the British and Irish Lions match against Argentina in Cardiff.. I was sat in a section of Welsh fans who spent the whole time abusing the English players playing for the Lions.. I found it all quite sad and disappointing..

pbuk0 wrote:I remember going to the British and Irish  Lions match against Argentina in Cardiff.. I was sat in a section of Welsh fans who spent the whole time abusing the English players playing for the Lions.. I found it all quite sad and disappointing..

You should hear what the Scotts say about their current team....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:I remember going to the British and Irish  Lions match against Argentina in Cardiff.. I was sat in a section of Welsh fans who spent the whole time abusing the English players playing for the Lions.. I found it all quite sad and disappointing..

You should hear what the Scotts say about their current team....

Neighbours of yours are they?

What do the Scots say as a matter of interest?

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

Try not to confuse him with such complicated replies...

Exiledinborders wrote:As an Englishman I have visited all of the Six Nations grounds. Mostly I have experienced good natured banter on all sides.  The only ground where a substantial minority move beyond that into nationalistic bigotry is Murrayfield.  It is certainly the only ground where the pre match 'entertainment' (i.e. The Braveheart nonsense) has the feel of being not just pro the home team but anti English.
At any club I belonged to the object was to make your visitors welcome and to make new friends. The SRU seem to have lost that.

Listen to the Anthem...

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

Try not to confuse him with such complicated replies...

Sorry mate your right...its just a funny comment coming from a guy who loves his country so much he had to move to the other side of the world...know what i mean..   

Jimpy wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:I remember going to the British and Irish  Lions match against Argentina in Cardiff.. I was sat in a section of Welsh fans who spent the whole time abusing the English players playing for the Lions.. I found it all quite sad and disappointing..

You should hear what the Scotts say about their current team....

Neighbours of yours are they?

What do the Scots say as a matter of interest?

No!

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

Can you remember history you weren't alive for?

And isn't it utterly illogical to hold grudges over generations?

Biltong wrote:Welshy, this is an excellent topic.

The problem with public perception is that those who spout negativities about any third party overshadows that of the positive thinkers or those who have a positive outlook on said third party.

It is just the way it is, compare it to someone working for a boss who hardly ever says anything negative to his staff members, but if he does the staff members will always remember the few times he has been nasty, but will never remember the good things he said or did.

I think those who hate Wales are in the minority, they are just more outspoken than those who doesn't.

What a platitudinous pile of old guff. (In my respectfulish opinion)

To me sport - international sport - is a metaphor for war. In the Home Nations in particular, the centuries of real and imagined oppression of the fringes by the English is nurtured, stored, brewed and reviled. Atrocities received are pored over and harboured like cankerous scabs whilst atrocities perpetrated are re-written as heroic deeds or consigned to the convenient amnesia of history.

So if the 6Ns is a war, each round is a battle and when you win the war it's sweet.
And seeing as England is the common enemy and therefore the battles are harder to win, English championships out-trump any other HN one.

I love the Anglo-Welsh bittersweet rivalry more an any other.

Now thats a post Portnoy   

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

Try not to confuse him with such complicated replies...

Sorry mate your right...its just a funny comment coming from a guy who loves his country so much he had to move to the other side of the world...know what i mean..   

Not all of us who live outside their native country do so out of a desire to leave that country. I have nothing but love for Aotearoa and am working on the wife to break down to her resistance to the idea of moving to the other side of the world away from her family and friends but it's not easy with earthquakes and severe flooding. Incidentally, my thoughts go out to the people of Christchurch who are affected by severe flooding - sadly for many those worst affected by the earthquake.

As for the OP, with communication the way it is nowadays, those who want to stir trouble have an abundance of choice to do so and it is impossible to drown their voices out. We all know the names of the people who do so on this forum but how many more actually voice an opinion that is reasonable, even though we might disagree with it? A great deal more but of course we tend to focus on those who rile us.

When NZ plays England I want to win but that is no different to any other country. There is always banter between my English friends and I but hate never comes into it. I hate losing but I'm usually more critical of my team when we win than when we lose.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Biltong wrote:Welshy, this is an excellent topic.

The problem with public perception is that those who spout negativities about any third party overshadows that of the positive thinkers or those who have a positive outlook on said third party.

It is just the way it is, compare it to someone working for a boss who hardly ever says anything negative to his staff members, but if he does the staff members will always remember the few times he has been nasty, but will never remember the good things he said or did.

I think those who hate Wales are in the minority, they are just more outspoken than those who doesn't.

What a platitudinous pile of old guff. (In my respectfulish opinion)

To me sport - international sport - is a metaphor for war. In the Home Nations in particular, the centuries of real and imagined oppression of the fringes by the English is nurtured, stored, brewed and reviled. Atrocities received are pored over and harboured like cankerous scabs whilst atrocities perpetrated are re-written as heroic deeds or consigned to the convenient amnesia of history.

So if the 6Ns is a war, each round is a battle and when you win the war it's sweet.
And seeing as England is the common enemy and therefore the battles are harder to win, English championships out-trump any other HN one.

I love the Anglo-Welsh bittersweet rivalry more an any other.

If it's supposedly a metaphor for war I would hope that Ukraine and Russia will resolve their dispute on the football and rugby pitch respectively.


Scottish independence can be decided on Scotland taking on a combined rugby team made up of players from the UK.   If Scotland win they get independence, if they lose they stay part of the UK.

If you want to make it football instead... 

Hartley says "England are targeting back row Taulupe (Toby to his friends and everyone else until he got upset and wanted to be known by his true name) Faletau, Hibbard and Dr Roberts as the Wales trio who must be stopped."

"We obviously look at talismen in other teams, I prefer to call them targets. That's not a joke," he said."    

"You respect them because they provide a lot of momentum, but if you make them a target, it changes that."


Looks like Mr Hartley is going to play dirty.

I suppose you can interpret what the fragrant Dylan says in a number of ways, especially as it's also going through media filtering/editing.

It's not clear to me whether it's the momentum or the respect that's changed by targeting. I think and hope that the respect is not lost.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

Try not to confuse him with such complicated replies...

Sorry mate your right...its just a funny comment coming from a guy who loves his country so much he had to move to the other side of the world...know what i mean..   

Not all of us who live outside their native country do so out of a desire to leave that country. I have nothing but love for Aotearoa and am working on the wife to break down to her resistance to the idea of moving to the other side of the world away from her family and friends but it's not easy with earthquakes and severe flooding. Incidentally, my thoughts go out to the people of Christchurch who are affected by severe flooding - sadly for many those worst affected by the earthquake.

As for the OP, with communication the way it is nowadays, those who want to stir trouble have an abundance of choice to do so and it is impossible to drown their voices out. We all know the names of the people who do so on this forum but how many more actually voice an opinion that is reasonable, even though we might disagree with it? A great deal more but of course we tend to focus on those who rile us.

When NZ plays England I want to win but that is no different to any other country. There is always banter between my English friends and I but hate never comes into it. I hate losing but I'm usually more critical of my team when we win than when we lose.

I totally apreciate that Kia, but then you come across as a genuine guy. Rainbow on the other hand comes across as a complete and utter chump!

Rugby teams "targetting" the opposition key players....now theres a novel move eh?    

Scrumpy don't see the difference between that and John Plumtree saying yesterday Ireland would need to look after Parisse. Doesn't mean that we are going to go out and knock his block off! Just that we need to game plan for him.

I found the "Wales are going to be taken to dark places" headline funnier.

Scrumpy wrote:Hartley says "England are targeting back row Taulupe (Toby to his friends and everyone else until he got upset and wanted to be known by his true name) Faletau, Hibbard and Dr Roberts as the Wales trio who must be stopped."

"We obviously look at talismen in other teams, I prefer to call them targets. That's not a joke," he said."    

"You respect them because they provide a lot of momentum, but if you make them a target, it changes that."


Looks like Mr Hartley is going to play dirty.

Sounds to me that Mr Hartley has his head screwed on.

If he intends to play dirty, he'll get sent off.

But one of the key match-ups will be between him and Hibbard.
Looking forward to it...

I would be interested to know more about this history and hate that some take of. When did it happen? Do you know anyone alive today who experienced this?

Only a fool will take a snippet from history and forget the rest.

Nelson Mandela had more than enough reasons to hate but he didn't and that's a standard to which we should all look up to... and I doubt there is anyone on here with more then a sniff of the trials and tribulations of what Madiba went through in his lifetime.

Notch wrote:Scrumpy don't see the difference between that and John Plumtree saying yesterday Ireland would need to look after Parisse. Doesn't mean that we are going to go out and knock his block off! Just that we need to game plan for him.

Notch, Plumtree was just using the old tactic of massaging the best player ego from your opponents team so that they have no additional motivation to run riot against you and nothing extra to prove. Yes Ireland will have to keep an eye on Parisse, absolutley, but they wont be out to injure him.

Personally I dont hate the English at all. We do in Ireland have a love hate relationship with England yes, but it isnt all hate.

Don't go there, fa,  or we'll end up comparing and contrasting Bloody Sunday and the Brighton bombings.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Hartley says "England are targeting back row Taulupe (Toby to his friends and everyone else until he got upset and wanted to be known by his true name) Faletau, Hibbard and Dr Roberts as the Wales trio who must be stopped."

"We obviously look at talismen in other teams, I prefer to call them targets. That's not a joke," he said."    

"You respect them because they provide a lot of momentum, but if you make them a target, it changes that."


Looks like Mr Hartley is going to play dirty.

Sounds to me that Mr Hartley has his head screwed on.

If he intends to play dirty, he'll get sent off.

But one of the key match-ups will be between him and Hibbard.
Looking forward to it...

He is just talking nonsense. He was fairly quiet v Ireland in terms of handbags. Brown, Lawes and Farrell are the hot heads at the moment.

Brown is the worst of the lot imo (his a WUM), I'm sure that didn't used to be part of his game?

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Hartley says "England are targeting back row Taulupe (Toby to his friends and everyone else until he got upset and wanted to be known by his true name) Faletau, Hibbard and Dr Roberts as the Wales trio who must be stopped."

"We obviously look at talismen in other teams, I prefer to call them targets. That's not a joke," he said."    

"You respect them because they provide a lot of momentum, but if you make them a target, it changes that."


Looks like Mr Hartley is going to play dirty.

Sounds to me that Mr Hartley has his head screwed on.

If he intends to play dirty, he'll get sent off.

But one of the key match-ups will be between him and Hibbard.
Looking forward to it...

He is just talking nonsense. He was fairly quiet v Ireland in terms of handbags. Brown, Lawes and Farrell are the hot heads at the moment.

Attaway, GG, get your scapegoats out there!

Scapegoats? Eh? What are you blabbing about now Portnoy?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:As an Englishman I have visited all of the Six Nations grounds. Mostly I have experienced good natured banter on all sides.  The only ground where a substantial minority move beyond that into nationalistic bigotry is Murrayfield.  It is certainly the only ground where the pre match 'entertainment' (i.e. The Braveheart nonsense) has the feel of being not just pro the home team but anti English.
At any club I belonged to the object was to make your visitors welcome and to make new friends. The SRU seem to have lost that.

Listen to the Anthem...

It's a difficult one like, as a Scot I don't see the Braveheart nonsense as being typically anti-English, it all stems from our culture of throwing off the shackles of an oppressor (be it Roman, Viking or English) and being free - subsequently getting drunk, losing all our money in the Americas and joining England as a hungover mess pleading for a way out - The fact of the matter is the anthem does not mention the English, It mentions Edward, who happened to be English, and sending him away tae think about what a stupid boy he was. The song could have been about any one of innumerable invaders but as it happened the English were the ones who came the closest to beating us. It could have been anyone in history but it happened to be the English. The point is it wouldn't of mattered who it was, we still would have sung about it!

Sorry, GG. I'm sure you're right.
Blabbing is not my first language. So as you are a native speaker, I'll have to defer.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Sorry, GG. I'm sure you're right.
Blabbing is not my first language. So as you are a native speaker, I'll have to defer.

Nobody is biting? Awww

It depends what's on the hook, Subm.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:It depends what's on the hook, Subm.

I dont understand your ramblings half the time Portnoy.

Risca Rev wrote:I found the "Wales are going to be taken to dark places" headline funnier.

England's trophy room?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Biltong wrote:Welshy, this is an excellent topic.

The problem with public perception is that those who spout negativities about any third party overshadows that of the positive thinkers or those who have a positive outlook on said third party.

It is just the way it is, compare it to someone working for a boss who hardly ever says anything negative to his staff members, but if he does the staff members will always remember the few times he has been nasty, but will never remember the good things he said or did.

I think those who hate Wales are in the minority, they are just more outspoken than those who doesn't.

What a platitudinous pile of old guff. (In my respectfulish opinion)

To me sport - international sport - is a metaphor for war. In the Home Nations in particular, the centuries of real and imagined oppression of the fringes by the English is nurtured, stored, brewed and reviled. Atrocities received are pored over and harboured like cankerous scabs whilst atrocities perpetrated are re-written as heroic deeds or consigned to the convenient amnesia of history.

So if the 6Ns is a war, each round is a battle and when you win the war it's sweet.
And seeing as England is the common enemy and therefore the battles are harder to win, English championships out-trump any other HN one.

I love the Anglo-Welsh bittersweet rivalry more an any other.

It is only guff if your perception is born out of years old rivalry and the inability to forget and forgive.

The rest of us mere mortals have other reasons for "hating " teams, be it the behaviour of their fans, because of jealousy or whatever.

But the fact remains, the Haters bellow their displeasure from the roof tops, where as those that have no such issues discuss their "Likes" or "support" for other teams quietly.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Nice write up and place in the UN for you.  I will remember history and keep on hating.

   

Classy comment Rainbow...sums you up.

Try not to confuse him with such complicated replies...

Sorry mate your right...its just a funny comment coming from a guy who loves his country so much he had to move to the other side of the world...know what i mean..   

Not all of us who live outside their native country do so out of a desire to leave that country. I have nothing but love for Aotearoa and am working on the wife to break down to her resistance to the idea of moving to the other side of the world away from her family and friends but it's not easy with earthquakes and severe flooding. Incidentally, my thoughts go out to the people of Christchurch who are affected by severe flooding - sadly for many those worst affected by the earthquake.

As for the OP, with communication the way it is nowadays, those who want to stir trouble have an abundance of choice to do so and it is impossible to drown their voices out. We all know the names of the people who do so on this forum but how many more actually voice an opinion that is reasonable, even though we might disagree with it? A great deal more but of course we tend to focus on those who rile us.

When NZ plays England I want to win but that is no different to any other country. There is always banter between my English friends and I but hate never comes into it. I hate losing but I'm usually more critical of my team when we win than when we lose.

I totally apreciate that Kia, but then you come across as a genuine guy. Rainbow on the other hand comes across as a complete and utter chump!

I'd be willing to gues that more New Zealanders would prefer to stay at home than Welshmen would. Aside from the orcs it's a pretty decent place to live. Whereas Wales is just full of hate and bitterness   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I found the "Wales are going to be taken to dark places" headline funnier.

England's trophy room?

I believe that's where the Beeb put John Inverdale when his not on the TV?