Is nepotism rife in the England camp?

Trying to keep club allegiance apart, is there not a mild stench of the unjust wafting from the well heeled, manicured gardens of Pennyhill Park?

Could it be argued that Flood fell on his own sword having seen the Lancastrian graffiti daubed on the walls of the English HQ?
Cipriani, a forgotten sinner never to be redeemed.
And most astonishingly, Burns, majestic in Argentina, left on the wasteland of "poor club form", albeit behind a woeful pack that would consign Dan Carter to a nobody in world rugby.

Up pop 2 Daddy's boys, undoubtedly not without merit, but do they really deserve their selection?

Objectively, what do we really think?

Non English members, I encourage you to post as well, as you, for the most part should have the most unbiased view.

I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Stuart Lancaster is my dad and i'm not in the squad. This nepotism thing can't be working very well

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Completely agree.

Burns needs to prove he can get back on track (probably won't happen until he goes to Leicester). Yes, he's not had the best pack to work with but his confidence seems shot at the moment and he's benched most of the time.

Cipriani is hardly knocking the door down. Some decent performances but not setting the world alight.

Flood, for me, has never quite hit the heights for England though it's a shame his services can't be called upon. Fair play to him doing what he thinks is right for himself.

No nepotism here.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

He played well, but that was a below-strength Argentina side. England smashed them all over the park.

I'd like to see Burns back in the reckoning at some point though. He can be very, very good.

BamBam wrote:Stuart Lancaster is my dad and i'm not in the squad. This nepotism thing can't be working very well

well, if you're not playing, how can he select you?

Well if you asking if Farrell and Ford are the two best 10 in English rugby, at the moment, then my answer is absolutely.

Burns and Cipriani should be no where near the team on current form

Cyril wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

He played well, but that was a below-strength Argentina side. England smashed them all over the park.

I'd like to see Burns back in the reckoning at some point though. He can be very, very good.

Ok, so Burns looks great behind a great pack. Farrell looks okay behind a great pack. How would he look playing for Gloucester?

Ford in ahead of Myler..........really?

To see Burns starting and Myler on the bench wouldn't look weird at all, but then their Dads aren't coaches.

All 4 are good players, but it strikes me that having a well positioned Daddy, doesn't half help.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

I did, he was very good against the 2nd string Argie side. If you've managed to catch any of his games this season you will see why he's not involved.

geoff999rugby wrote:Well if you asking if Farrell and Ford are the two best 10 in English rugby, at the moment, then my answer is absolutely.

Burns and Cipriani should be no where near the team on current form

A completely blinkered view. No evidence to back that up other than a hackney'd, stereotypical assessment of these players. Cipriani has been looking solid, Burns not so much, but put him back behind a great pack and watch.
Did JW look great in his pomp playing for the Falcons? No, of course not. Was he the best FH in England by a mile? Of course.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

I did, he was very good against the 2nd string Argie side. If you've managed to catch any of his games this season you will see why he's not involved.

See previous post.

Gatland is BOD's dad and we know what happened there!  It's overrated, nepotism - but it always exists at some level. We're humans - it's how we evolved.

Most coaches at one time or another can be accused of 'favouritism' - even without a family bond.  That's simply a form of nepotism too.  It's always hovering in the background to some extent

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

Cyril wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm English and the best 2 fly halfs which will be available to England for the World Cup are in the match day squad.

Did you watch the Argentina tests last year? I find it difficult to justify either Farrell or Ford ahead of Burns (I'm no Glaws fan). Flood pushed out way too early too.

He played well, but that was a below-strength Argentina side. England smashed them all over the park.

I'd like to see Burns back in the reckoning at some point though. He can be very, very good.

Ok, so Burns looks great behind a great pack. Farrell looks okay behind a great pack. How would he look playing for Gloucester?

Ford in ahead of Myler..........really?

To see Burns starting and Myler on the bench wouldn't look weird at all, but then their Dads aren't coaches.

All 4 are good players, but it strikes me that having a well positioned Daddy, doesn't half help.

It's up to Burns to get back on form. As I said he should have a chance to do that at Leicester. He's played poorly at Glaws recently (regardless of the pack) and has been benched quite a bit. It's like he's waiting out his time and it's been quite obvious that his head hasn't been right for quite a while with all the move speculation etc.

Yes, Ford should be in ahead of Myler.

Somehow I don't think you'll be persuaded away from the 'Daddy' argument   

"There's nowt so blind as a Mother's love"

Flood had a drop in form and, in an attempt to give Farrell as much experience as possible, he hasn't had much chance to retake it. When he did come on I felt he tended to 'force' it a little too much to prove himself (possible because he had limited oppotunities to do so).

Ford's playing very well. Cipriani is playing well. Myler is playing very well. Burns isn't playing very well. So the next two 'best' players are Myler and Ford and Ford will have more chance in the future. :shrug: Not exactly ridiculous. Hopefully next year Burns will kick on and be back pushing for 1st or 2nd choice.

I'm not saying that Farrell and Ford are there purely because of Daddy, just that there's a bit of a whiff, which could end up being highly divisive in the England camp, particularly if things start to unravel. It just needs to be debated.

There is every evidence that Burns would have been backup no.10 if he had shown any form this year. He can be really good. He isnt at the moment.

It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

HammerofThunor wrote:Flood had a drop in form and, in an attempt to give Farrell as much experience as possible, he hasn't had much chance to retake it.  When he did come on I felt he tended to 'force' it a little too much to prove himself (possible because he had limited oppotunities to do so).

Ford's playing very well. Cipriani is playing well. Myler is playing very well. Burns isn't playing very well. So the next two 'best' players are Myler and Ford and Ford will have more chance in the future. :shrug: Not exactly ridiculous.  Hopefully next year Burns will kick on and be back pushing for 1st or 2nd choice.

Mmmmmm, you have got to keep faith with talented players. SCW did with JW, when he looked, at times completely lost playing for his club. He ultimately won us a RWC.

At the end of the day a player has to prove he’s currently good enough for a test call-up, and that’s for the majority of players (not already playing for England) through their club form. You can’t expect to usurp OF, for example, unless you’re currently and consistently playing better than him at club level. Burns isn’t. It’s not a question of giving someone ‘a chance’, it’s about selecting the best squad.

I agree a bit about Flood though – he didn’t have the confidence of SL and it showed: a few cameo 20 minute roles at centre weren’t enough to get the best out of him. Stewie has a bit of a problem – he quotes the issue with squad inexperience (via how few caps England have), but he prefers his boys young. If he’s shooting for 2019, he runs the risk of not being there to enjoy it.

Simple answer: No.

Of course I am sure that both Farrell Jr and Ford Jr have been helped a bit by their father's but it's hardly as if they haven't earnt their spots.

Farrell Jr and Ford Jr happen to be two of the brightest England 10 prospects in the country.

Farrell Jr in particular has time and again vindicated his selection. People accused Farrell Sr of favouritism on the Lions tour but Farrell Jr showed he warranted his place. For England, Farrell Jr has done similar.

Ford Sr could be accused of putting Ford Jr in ahead of Mcheathcote at Bath but Ford Jr has vindicated that decision by performing well.

Remember that it works both ways. As sons of well known rugby figures, they get more scrutiny. The pressure is greater because they have their father's breathing down their neck if they don't perform the inevitable calls of nepotism will ring out.


Only need to look at the resume of both players.

Farrell Jr just 22 with an AP title - 21 caps for England, a successful Lions tour under his belt, starting 10 of one of the top sides in England at the moment.

Ford - just 20, U20s player of the year, currently holding the reins of the side 3rd in the AP. His resume isn't as impressive as Farrell's because he is two years younger but he should build it in the next few years.

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

Ford aparently got the call up due to his performance in the Bath vs Exeter game. (acording to LOL on BT Sport).

I admit that he had a good game - but does no one see the negatives there - I thought that he was pretty much directly responsible for that 2nd half exeter try where the chap just straightened the line and Ford slipped off the covering tackle for him to score under posts.
I think Austin also mentioned that Bath do a good job of hiding him in defence.

So, he's not the wonder kid - not the complete package - but he does do something differnent to other English 10's. So, I'm fine with him being in the squad but would prefer that people realise his negatives rather than building him up to inevitabley fail.

He needs time to gel - and not be dropped a la Tait, if he happens to have a howler.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

Are you Burns' dad?

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

To be honest Miss, You're either showing a whole bucket load of bias yourself or you haven't seen Burns play much this season.

Burns had a chance for the Saxons against Ireland A and he almost single-handedly lost the game.  I didn't see his performance against Scotland 'A' but they persevered with him, which shows that they are trying to give him a chance to prove himself.  It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets to Leicester.

Farrell is worthy of his starting place,  he's grown into the role and I think he would be there no matter who was picking the side.

Ford is one of the best young fly halves I personally have ever seen (relatively speaking) and I think he could be as influential to us as Carter has been to New Zealand. (and yes I am finished pontificating about him)

I've always been a fan of Cipriani too and would love to see him around the squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

To be honest Miss, You're either showing a whole bucket load of bias yourself or you haven't seen Burns play much this season.

I am genuinely trying to remain unbiased. My own club, alas don't feature at this level anymore. Do you really think that Dooley's Grasshopper form warranted his inclusion in the England team? In the England shirt he was unstoppable. Club form can be highly over-rated.

Farrell Jr was the starting 10 as England beat the ABs, the best side in the world and I thought he held his own well last match too.

I feel that with you (missblennerhassett) think Farrell Jr will never be good enough.

You only need to look at what Farrell Jr has done for his age to see that he's doing pretty well.

Farrell Jr is not the perfect package but I think he's improving all the time and I don't think he looks out of his depth at international level. He's a continually underrated player.

propdavid london I don't expect Ford to be the perfect package yet. He's only 20 but he's earnt a bench spot vs Ireland.


Burns can't even get into the Gloucester team. The weak pack is a poor excuse. Mills did pretty well behind a pack getting mullered in the scrum by Leicester.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

To be honest Miss, You're either showing a whole bucket load of bias yourself or you haven't seen Burns play much this season.

I am genuinely trying to remain unbiased. My own club, alas don't feature at this level anymore. Do you really think that Dooley's Grasshopper form warranted his inclusion in the England team? In the England shirt he was unstoppable. Club form can be highly over-rated.

You've got to be in the team and prove yourself before club form can be overlooked. It's tough, but Burns will need to do that and get himself back in contention before 'temporary' poor club form can be taken out of the equation. He's got a fair bit of ground to make up in that respect.

beshocked wrote:Farrell Jr was the starting 10 as England beat the ABs, the best side in the world and I thought he held his own well last match too.

I feel that with you (missblennerhassett) think Farrell Jr will never be good enough.

You only need to look at what Farrell Jr has done for his age to see that he's doing pretty well.

Farrell Jr is not the perfect package but I think he's improving all the time and I don't think he looks out of his depth at international level. He's a continually underrated player.

propdavid london I don't expect Ford to be the perfect package yet. He's only 20 but he's earnt a bench spot vs Ireland.


Burns can't even get into the Gloucester team. The weak pack is a poor excuse. Mills did pretty well behind a pack getting mullered in the scrum by Leicester.

Yes, I suspect you are correct in your observation. I do agree that he is a very good player, but I don't see him as the FH of a RWC winning side. Whereas to keep faith with a stuttering Burns could reap dividends.

Someone like Morgan has been kept in the England squad despite not performing for his club albeit he has been dropped to the bench. He is still in the 23 based on his performances in internationals. When you have two talented no 8s like Billy and Morgan one has to be on the bench. Billy has warranted his spot.

As Cyril says Burns is still pretty much unproven at international level. Can't really look too much into destroying a 2nd string Argentina.


You would have more of a case if Farrell Jr was performing poorly but he's doing a pretty good job and in most games for England I would say he's been pretty solid if not spectacular.

You need players who can do different things. Farrell Jr gives you a bit of stability, he's the 10 that packs love because he generally kicks his goals and makes his tackles meaning that they don't need to babysit him. Plus he's a surprisingly abrasive player. Not the most easy on the eye style of play but he's working on playing flatter and being attacking.

As a pack you have to believe in your 10. You could tell on the weekend with Mulipola and Flood that the frontrow man has lost faith in his captain and 10. Gloucester have lost faith in Burns.

The expectations on the likes of Ford Jr and Farrell Jr are massive. With that pressure on them, I think they've dealt with it remarkably well.

Keeping faith or giving them time to sort out their issues. the right thing to do depends upon the player.

Some players do play at a much higher level at international than for their club (North at Scarlets last year was a good example). Burns has had opportunities with the Saxons for what its worth and hasnt taken them. You have to ask what Burns getting hounded for messing up at international level will do for us or for him when you have good alternatives.

As for the alternatives Farrell is very good and developing all the time and Ford has been hyped up for years despite being only 20.

You should have picked Ford against us to give him a run out, at least in the 23. So yes, I do think there is an element of nepotism but I doubt it's rife.

I thought Farrell looked distinctly average against Scotland. If he's being selected to kick goals, he didn't. And okay the turf was awful but he looked ponderous and one dimensional when he did get decent ball.
Is it a case of one rule for some and another for others?

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:Farrell Jr was the starting 10 as England beat the ABs, the best side in the world and I thought he held his own well last match too.

I feel that with you (missblennerhassett) think Farrell Jr will never be good enough.

You only need to look at what Farrell Jr has done for his age to see that he's doing pretty well.

Farrell Jr is not the perfect package but I think he's improving all the time and I don't think he looks out of his depth at international level. He's a continually underrated player.

propdavid london I don't expect Ford to be the perfect package yet. He's only 20 but he's earnt a bench spot vs Ireland.


Burns can't even get into the Gloucester team. The weak pack is a poor excuse. Mills did pretty well behind a pack getting mullered in the scrum by Leicester.

Yes, I suspect you are correct in your observation. I do agree that he is a very good player, but I don't see him as the FH of a RWC winning side. Whereas to keep faith with a stuttering Burns could reap dividends.

That's a shame that you'll never change your mind.

I just find it strange that you think that Burns could be the messiah. To be honest as it stands Burns has a chance of becoming another nearly man like Geraghty and Lamb.

Farrell Jr is a far tougher cookie than most 10s hence why he is where he is. Being a 10 is very tough. The spotlight is always on you - many players can't stand up to the pressure.

Look at 10s like Goode and Hodgson - have their strengths but never really hit the heights at international level. Cipriani floundered with 4 consecutive chargedowns.

Only need to look at 10 woes that the likes of Wales,France,Italy and Scotland have had. Other than England only Ireland have a solid figure like Sexton.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I thought Farrell looked distinctly average against Scotland. If he's being selected to kick goals, he didn't. And okay the turf was awful but he looked ponderous and one dimensional when he did get decent ball.
Is it a case of one rule for some and another for others?

Yes you are right it is one rule for some and another for others. Farrell Jr would have to play like Dan Carter to be recognised as an alright 10 whereas a 10 like Burns doesn't even need to play well to be seen as a potential RWC winning 10.

Average? What is that? Who are you comparing to? I just feel that you are looking at the negatives.

This a 10 who has been criticised for his lack of attacking play yet has made two breaks and 4 offloads in 2 6 nations games. Assisted with Burrell try vs France and almost assisted in another vs Scotland (if only Burrell could have finished the move started by Farrell).

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Well if you asking if Farrell and Ford are the two best 10 in English rugby, at the moment, then my answer is absolutely.

Burns and Cipriani should be no where near the team on current form

A completely blinkered view. No evidence to back that up other than a hackney'd, stereotypical assessment of these players. Cipriani has been looking solid, Burns not so much, but put him back behind a great pack and watch.
Did JW look great in his pomp playing for the Falcons? No, of course not. Was he the best FH in England by a mile? Of course.

What backs it up is the quality of rugby played that I have seen, what do you go on?, and why would I be blinkered I have no bias on this matter?

Cipriani has continued to look flaky in certain positions.
Poor kicks through which compromise his team and as Austin Healey has said he stands too deep which gives away cheap yards.
Burns has a appalling kicking record and his tackling percentages are as bad as anyone in the Aviva, as bad as Ian Humphreys, and that is really bad.

Ford has a quality of hands that neither of those match.
Farrell has a ability to kick and retain match control that neither of those match.

Seems to me you have a bee in your bonnet about these players, that they cannot be the best because of who their fathers are.
That's blinkered

Cyril wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It has been debated. It's nonsense. They're there on ability.


Are we done now?

No. England WILL NOT win a RWC with Farrell at 10. Burns must be nurtured, brought on by an unbiased coaching team, which unfortunately we don't seem to have. To drop someone of his ability because of club form is preposterous - Don't you remember Jonny Wilkinson?
With this pack and an axis of Care/Burns we can unlock world class defences, which we must do to win world cups. Farrell is not the man.
Let's try and be a bit forward thinking rather than just looking at last Saturday's performance.

Are you Burns' dad?

I'm just trying to figure out what the previous name of this poster was before he was banned (and now returned).

beshocked wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:Farrell Jr was the starting 10 as England beat the ABs, the best side in the world and I thought he held his own well last match too.

I feel that with you (missblennerhassett) think Farrell Jr will never be good enough.

You only need to look at what Farrell Jr has done for his age to see that he's doing pretty well.

Farrell Jr is not the perfect package but I think he's improving all the time and I don't think he looks out of his depth at international level. He's a continually underrated player.

propdavid london I don't expect Ford to be the perfect package yet. He's only 20 but he's earnt a bench spot vs Ireland.


Burns can't even get into the Gloucester team. The weak pack is a poor excuse. Mills did pretty well behind a pack getting mullered in the scrum by Leicester.

Yes, I suspect you are correct in your observation. I do agree that he is a very good player, but I don't see him as the FH of a RWC winning side. Whereas to keep faith with a stuttering Burns could reap dividends.

That's a shame that you'll never change your mind.

I just find it strange that you think that Burns could be the messiah. To be honest as it stands Burns has a chance of becoming another nearly man like Geraghty and Lamb.

Farrell Jr is a far tougher cookie than most 10s hence why he is where he is. Being a 10 is very tough. The spotlight is always on you - many players can't stand up to the pressure.

Look at 10s like Goode and Hodgson - have their strengths but never really hit the heights at international level. Cipriani floundered with 4 consecutive chargedowns.

Only need to look at 10 woes that the likes of Wales,France,Italy and Scotland have had. Other than England only Ireland have a solid figure like Sexton.

Agree with every word Beshocked   

beshocked wrote:Simple answer: No.
Farrell Jr just 22 with an AP title - 21 caps for England, a successful Lions tour under his belt, starting 10 of one of the top sides in England at the moment.
Ford - just 20, U20s player of the year, currently holding the reins of the side 3rd in the AP. His resume isn't as impressive as Farrell's because he is two years younger but he should build it in the next few years.

Ford played for most of last seasons AP Final.

Cumbrian wrote:Farrell is worthy of his starting place,  he's grown into the role and I think he would be there no matter who was picking the side.

Ford is one of the best young fly halves I personally have ever seen (relatively speaking) and I think he could be as influential to us as Carter has been to New Zealand. (and yes I am finished pontificating about him)

Agree 100% with both of those points. Was roundly mocked by some new found Ford fans for saying just that

MissBlennerhassett wrote:
I am genuinely trying to remain unbiased. My own club, alas don't feature at this level anymore. Do you really think that Dooley's Grasshopper form warranted his inclusion in the England team? In the England shirt he was unstoppable. Club form can be highly over-rated.

Dooley’s form for Preston Grasshoppers got him in the Lancashire team and then into the North team. Strong performances for the North in the Divisional championship and against touring teams saw him promoted to the England team in a period where the incumbents were shockingly poor (John Orwin!!!!). He got in the team due to performing against high quality sides. Something Freddie Burns has failed to do this season.

Fair enough Londontiger. That's true - Ford has a AP win on his resume too.

Thanks geoff. Well said.  

I still think Toby Flood is the best 10 in England, but given his move to France and the need to build towards the RWC Ford and Farrell are absolutely the right selections.

Luck has so much to do with all of this. Flood at his best was underrated. A solid all rounder and decent kicker with a surprisingly good running game. He never had enough pace to cause real damage on his own but was very good at spotting and taking advantages of gaps to make the half break. Having someone like Ashton tracking him was very effective.

He had time out with injury and then had a couple of starts with England. He was still going for the half breaks but for one reason or another was very rarely getting away with anything. His general standard of play was uninspiring. Maybe he was still getting over the injuries, or maybe it was just the combinations with the rest of the team but he had a chance and fluffed it.

Notch wrote:I still think Toby Flood is the best 10 in England, but given his move to France and the need to build towards the RWC Ford and Farrell are absolutely the right selections.

Notch I honestly don't understand why you think that.

Flood started vs Italy last season in the 6 nations and did not deliver. England scored no tries. Can't blame Flood completely but he was part of it.

Autumn of 2012 vs Australia - England lose with Flood at the helm, he started vs South Africa - missed two kicks then went off injured. Farrell Jr came on and almost turned things around until Robshaw's bizarre call to go for the penalty kick (btw Farrell wanted to kick for the corner).

Only needed to watch Flood vs Gloucester to see a man completely short of confidence. It got so bad that he had an argument with his own team mate, Mulipola.

Better than Farrell Jr? Not in my opinion.

Notch wrote:I still think Toby Flood is the best 10 in England, but given his move to France and the need to build towards the RWC Ford and Farrell are absolutely the right selections.

Flod was crap at the weekend - his heads not right.
He should be no where near the team

I agree with Beshocked again ! - this is becoming a worrying trend  

This argument is moot. At the moment, Farrell is the best of a rather mediocre bunch. Since Flood has lost form (and can't be selected anyway) and the others ditto or are unproven at international (and even club) level, we're stuck with Farrell. I concede that he is improvong his attacking game, but still seems generally content to convert good posession into a kick for territory, rather than looking to see what's on. Flood at least could and did do that when on form.

It's all very well saying Flood cost England at times, but there are also plenty of times that i can remember that he gained for England. Farrell has had some howlers too.

Like I said, the best of a mediocre bunch.

A mild wum but not a bad effort for a beginner. Rating 2/5.
You need to read up on GG/GE and see how its done.

Geoff    

As far as I can see there is a degree of agreement between everyone who has posted on this thread, except for the OP who we are unlikely to ever convince. But I think we have made a bunch of good points