Toulouse vs Saracens - Pool 3, 5th round

First topic message reminder :

Toulouse vs Saracens - Sunday, 12th January - 16:00


There are some big matches this weekend but the Toulouse vs Saracens has to be one of the most anticipated.

The French aristocrats vs the English league leaders. Toulouse have kept up their irresistible unbeaten home form in the top 14 with a win vs league leaders Clermont. Sarries have been in very good form in recent weeks - beating Leicester at home, both Worcester and Gloucester away.

Saracens have one of the best away records in the HC and Toulouse have one of the best home records in the HC. Sarries are also one of the only sides to beat Toulouse away albeit in 2000.

No disrespect to Connacht but I feel that Toulouse underestimated them in that HC loss in round 3. There will no complacency from Toulouse. This is a winner takes all clash (why it's more important than the other matches in my opinion). The losing side might still qualify as a best runners up but would have to face a daunting away trip to the likes of Toulon,Clermont or Leinster.


The Saracens team will have changed a little bit since their first encounter -Barritt and Bosch will be expected to start in the centres which will strengthen them defensively and offensively respectively. With the injuries to Burger and Fraser, Brown will be expected to continue to play at 7.

Rest of the team should stay unchanged but the form of the players, particularly Wigglesworth and Brits has significantly improved.

Key battle for me will be the frontrow battle. It's an area where Saracens have generally struggled vs the strongest sides. Getting parity at least will be crucial. Another important point will be how Saracens combat the physicality that Toulouse bring. Sarries are a strong side but have been outmuscled by the likes of Toulon,Clermont and Saints in big recent matches. I feel that someone on the Sarries side will need to have as much as a positive impact as Galan did for Toulouse in the Wembley encounter.

Toulouse successfully nullified the Vunipola bros last time round, Saracens will need those two to put their team on the front foot.

I believe that Fritz is injured and perhaps more crucially it doesn't seem like Galan is available (he didn't play vs Clermont).

My choice head to heads:

Census Johnston vs Mako Vunipola

Louis Picamoles vs Billy Vunipola

Clement Poitrenaud vs Brad Barritt

Thoughts?

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:Just power has one the day. Saracens to get anything out of this would have needed to be smarter at the breakdown and better with the tactical kicking. Kicking is so key- got to move these big packs around the pitch.

Very unconvincing display from Farrell.

congrats on becoming a moderator notch. hope you enjoy it and its not a total ball-ache.

agree re kicking. farrell is a good 10, but doest have the on-field imagination and creativity to make me think he can be a great 10. sadly i still think johnny wilkinson has the best brain of our 10s. not sure whether tactical nous can be coached? can it?

Jeezuz. Notch a moderator? This is reminicent of all those dreamers in the 60's, turning into corporate Hitler Youff overnight. :Establishmentdressedorange:

Gibson wrote:Jeezuz. Notch a moderator? This is reminicent of all those dreamers in the 60's, turning into corporate Hitler Youff overnight. :Establishmentdressedorange:

You'd know a thing or two about that Gibbo!    

Scoped wrote:Don't start with name calling Nathan. Either discuss the point or shut up.

Sarries have been in great form in the Premiership and Toulouse have been average at best, losing to Bayonne and struggling with Bordeux. Bar an early try they never even looked close to competitive and, in my opinion, the scoreboard even flatters them a little

That's the key bit there.

As mentioned by the French fan on here Toulouse seriously upped their game for this one while for what ever reason Sarries failed to play their Prem style tactics.

You can't really use form in one leafue for results in another.

notch, chill out in your redline persona. this thread's been fairly mellow, all things considered.

Great performance from Toulouse. I was starting to lose faith in them recently.

You lose faith easily bud. Bit Feckless really...   

Toulouse are the marker.  Clermont and Toulon are the new rich-kids on the block.  As are Sarries.

The Heino doesn't altogether respect that sometimes.

They bought a bad Final last year. Lets hope it has teams who want to play open-rugby in it this year. Have me ticket.

Sarries played well today but could not match the intensity of toulouse.

Agreat try by Ashton in the first half, but then Toulouse stepped up their game and made it hard for Sarries to break their line.

Well played Toulouse for a great win.

The aristocrats have given the upstarts two lessons in how to play the HC. Any bit of luck the silly hat men will end up against Toulon in the qfs (if they make it) and both sets of mongrels can beat the heads off each other.

It is with hilarity that I recall the fortuitous win against Connacht when certain fans were being at best condescending towards Connacht. Given saffercens have absolutely no pedigree in Europe one would have to ask why? Ho hum

ME-109 wrote:The aristocrats have given the upstarts two lessons in how to play the HC. Any bit of luck the silly hat men will end up against Toulon in the qfs (if they make it) and both sets of mongrels can beat the heads off each other.

It is with hilarity that I recall the fortuitous win against Connacht when certain fans were being at best condescending towards Connacht. Given saffercens have absolutely no pedigree in Europe one would have to ask why? Ho hum

A bit harsh ME109. Not to say bitter.

Blame the fatuous seedings, pool draws and inane free spots for non-qualifiers imo. The Saracens are building a pedigree off their own efforts (much as I dislike their business model).

ME-109 wrote:The aristocrats have given the upstarts two lessons in how to play the HC. Any bit of luck the silly hat men will end up against Toulon in the qfs (if they make it) and both sets of mongrels can beat the heads off each other.

It is with hilarity that I recall the fortuitous win against Connacht when certain fans were being at best condescending towards Connacht. Given saffercens have absolutely no pedigree in Europe one would have to ask why? Ho hum

Can one of you mods please ban this troll? He has absolutely nothing constructive to say - please do us all a favour and get rid of him.

Oh and me-109 - shame on you.

majesticimperialman Saracens did not play well though you could argue this was because Toulouse did not allow them to. There was lack of organisation and leadership when it was needed. Plus there was a lack of ideas in breaking down the Toulouse defence. Even something like a chip over the top might have at least mixed things up.

Toulouse were good but were predictable - just offered the power game we've all seen before and unfortunately Saracens yet again had no answer.

The inability to compete at the breakdown and the failure to play the ref properly were what let us down mainly.

Rolland wants to be the star of the show every game he refs and he did so again - blowing the whistle left right and centre. We didn't adapt well enough to his primadonna style.

Being completely dominated at the breakdown meant we conceded far too many penalties, couldn't generate any quick ball with which to attack with and could not retain possession. Plus the inability to get over the gain line.

Any suggestions for what solutions could be?

This was the game where Farrell could answer the critics, show his leadership qualities in attack and look to vary it with some creativity, perhaps with a chip, like you suggested. Sadly, he failed to do so against a top side and thus, people will continue to have their doubts and criticise his attacking skills, or lack thereof against the very best sides

Bathite wrote:This was the game where Farrell could answer the critics, show his leadership qualities in attack and look to vary it with some creativity, perhaps with a chip, like you suggested. Sadly, he failed to do so against a top side and thus, people will continue to have their doubts and criticise his attacking skills, or lack thereof against the very best sides

Very true and he failed.

Lets face it Farrell isn't going to win England a RWC in 2015, hell I'll be surprised if we get out of the group with him at 10!  

I wouldn't go that far, I'm a Farrell fan, I'm just saying what everyone will be thinking, an opportunity to prove the doubters wrong missed, definitely

"an opportunity to prove the doubters wrong missed"

Again!

beshocked wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The aristocrats have given the upstarts two lessons in how to play the HC. Any bit of luck the silly hat men will end up against Toulon in the qfs (if they make it) and both sets of mongrels can beat the heads off each other.

It is with hilarity that I recall the fortuitous win against Connacht when certain fans were being at best condescending towards Connacht. Given saffercens have absolutely no pedigree in Europe one would have to ask why? Ho hum

Can one of you mods please ban this troll? He has absolutely nothing constructive to say - please do us all a favour and get rid of him.

Oh and me-109 - shame on you.

majesticimperialman Saracens did not play well though you could argue this was because Toulouse did not allow them to. There was lack of organisation and leadership when it was needed. Plus there was a lack of ideas in breaking down the Toulouse defence. Even something like a chip over the top might have at least mixed things up.

Toulouse were good but were predictable - just offered the power game we've all seen before and unfortunately Saracens yet again had no answer.

The inability to compete at the breakdown and the failure to play the ref properly were what let us down mainly.

Rolland wants to be the star of the show every game he refs and he did so again - blowing the whistle left right and centre. We didn't adapt well enough to his primadonna style.

Being completely dominated at the breakdown meant we conceded far too many penalties, couldn't generate any quick ball with which to attack with and could not retain possession. Plus the inability to get over the gain line.

Any suggestions for what solutions could be?

Why wasn't Burger playing?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The aristocrats have given the upstarts two lessons in how to play the HC. Any bit of luck the silly hat men will end up against Toulon in the qfs (if they make it) and both sets of mongrels can beat the heads off each other.

It is with hilarity that I recall the fortuitous win against Connacht when certain fans were being at best condescending towards Connacht. Given saffercens have absolutely no pedigree in Europe one would have to ask why? Ho hum

Can one of you mods please ban this troll? He has absolutely nothing constructive to say - please do us all a favour and get rid of him.

Oh and me-109 - shame on you.

majesticimperialman Saracens did not play well though you could argue this was because Toulouse did not allow them to. There was lack of organisation and leadership when it was needed. Plus there was a lack of ideas in breaking down the Toulouse defence. Even something like a chip over the top might have at least mixed things up.

Toulouse were good but were predictable - just offered the power game we've all seen before and unfortunately Saracens yet again had no answer.

The inability to compete at the breakdown and the failure to play the ref properly were what let us down mainly.

Rolland wants to be the star of the show every game he refs and he did so again - blowing the whistle left right and centre. We didn't adapt well enough to his primadonna style.

Being completely dominated at the breakdown meant we conceded far too many penalties, couldn't generate any quick ball with which to attack with and could not retain possession. Plus the inability to get over the gain line.

Any suggestions for what solutions could be?

Why wasn't Burger playing?

Injured.

Shame. Him and Fraser at the same time unfortunate as Brown and Wray isn't as good come the breakdown. I'm so grateful that Robshaw seems so injury proof these days as a 7. Knock on wood

chequeredjersey true. there is no doubt that without those two Saracens were dearly missing players at the breakdown that could make a difference perhaps.

I just don't know where Saracens go from here in terms of trying to take on the power game of the likes of Toulouse,Clermont,Saints and Toulon.

I can't see us picking up any silverware unless we find a solution. Unfortunately I cannot see one at the moment.

Bathite I agree but I don't think all the blame can be pinned upon Farrell. In my opinion there was a lack of direction/leadership throughout the team. When you are in trouble you need someone to change tack/come up with a solution.

beshocked wrote:
Bathite I agree but I don't think all the blame can be pinned upon Farrell. In my opinion there was a lack of direction/leadership throughout the team. When you are in trouble you need someone to change tack/come up with a solution.

The curse of the Modern rugby player 'the lack of ability to think for themselves'.

Pay peanuts get gym Monkeys I guess.

Scrumpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Bathite I agree but I don't think all the blame can be pinned upon Farrell. In my opinion there was a lack of direction/leadership throughout the team. When you are in trouble you need someone to change tack/come up with a solution.

The curse of the Modern rugby player 'the lack of ability to think for themselves'.

Pay peanuts get gym Monkeys I guess.

True - these days, it's bigger is better. Look in the AP - the teams with the arguably the biggest packs are top 3.

It's about size. Bath has the likes of Rokodiguini and Banahan in their backline. Saints signed North for the same reason.

The French sides take this one step further. It's so difficult to take on monstrous packs like Clermont,Toulon and Toulouse who can just use raw power to outmuscle their opponents.

I wouldn't say Roko was particularly large for back, but he is incredibly powerful for a bloke his size, pound for pound. We do have Banahan though, you're right, but having said that, our first choice 9 10 12 13 is actually really lightweight, with Stringer, Ford, Eastmond, Joseph all being touch, creative players, rather than bludgeoners.

I just watched this game. Toulouse did nothing spectacular but bossed the breakdown, protected their own ball and most importantly hardly made a mistake. Farrell was mince. noting running, ball in hand or off the boot - indeed some very poor kicks and too many of them.

I think that teams like Tigers and Bath not putting out teams v Sarries has cost them needed challanges.

It seems each time Sarries loose the breakdown they loose the match. Not sure if its over coaching but they need to trust their running game that we know they have.

[quote="beshocked"]

Scrumpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Bathite I agree but I don't think all the blame can be pinned upon Farrell. In my opinion there was a lack of direction/leadership throughout the team. When you are in trouble you need someone to change tack/come up with a solution.

The curse of the Modern rugby player 'the lack of ability to think for themselves'.

Pay peanuts get gym Monkeys I guess.

True - these days, it's bigger is better. Look in the AP - the teams with the arguably the biggest packs are top 3.

It's about size. Bath has the likes of Rokodiguini and Banahan in their backline. Saints signed North for the same reason.

The French sides take this one step further. It's so difficult to take on monstrous packs like Clermont,Toulon and Toulouse who can just use raw power to outmuscle their opponents.[/quote]

Yep look at Clermonts second try v Quins. Just pure unstoppable forward power, finished off by powerful wingers.

Saracens were poor excepting their scrum. I thought the ref was very poor especially around the breakdown, players flopping from both sides and getting away with it.

Farrell will have learnt more in this game than many of the easy AP wins. He MUST learn to make deliberate improvement in his variation otherwise teams will suffocate his predictable options.

Hodgson should have come on sooner, no offense to Farrell but a dynamic change was needed.

Just want to say, ya cant ban Cork people. They are the Chosen Ones. They speaketh the truth. Just sayin.

TJ true.

Brendan very true I was annoyed with Tigers for doing that.

Should look at copying the Irish trick of playing a big derby match just before the HC to up the intensity.

Toulouse had Clermont at home the week before which probably helped them.

You are right. There's an overreliance on winning the breakdown battle, our attacking game needs it too much as well.

We were also uncharacteristically poor in the line out.

kingelderfield completely agree with all of that.

Brendan wrote:I think that teams like Tigers and Bath not putting out teams v Sarries has cost them needed challanges.

It seems each time Sarries loose the breakdown they loose the match.  Not sure if its over coaching but they need to trust their running game that we know they have.

Nah mate. Its because sarries are rubbish and Guy Noves just taught them two lessons in playing rugby. All he did was put out a bigger team = endofstory for the funny hats ( clueless backline). Boys and men