Why parkland golf sucks

Parkland golf is clearly not in the spirit of the game. It is detrimental to players and their skill levels by being over manicured and allowing shots to be played from most places with no real degree of difficultly. It also provides a much greater margin of error when compared to the greatest form of the game, links golf, in that the soft fairways will often stop a ball flying way offline after only a single bounce where on a linksland course this error would be greatly punished by the hard ground leading the ball into the catchment areas and gorse lining the fairways awaiting the long, wayward idiot from a parkland track who thinks he can overpower the track.

In addition the natural elements that have lead themselves into these wonderful links courses have meant the courses co-exist in harmony with the surrounding where a parkland track will usually have a huge amount of landfill and the environment disturbed to a massive amount by the course builders.

Yes. Parkland golf is clearly to the detriment of both golfer and the countryside.

Not forgetting the little urban urchins who steal your golf balls on the course

More pressing is how Schizophrenia can affect one's choice of which type of golf course to play. Parkland one day, links the next...

sharrison01 wrote:More pressing is how Schizophrenia can affect one's choice of which type of golf course to play. Parkland one day, links the next...

Wait until Heathland courses come along.

LJ

There is no reason for a parkland course to display the features you mention. A well designed and routed course on whatever terrain can provide a decent round for many. It is the mindset displayed in your article, that seems to be shared by modern course owners, which causes inappropriate layouts and poor courses.

Yes without the sand based soils of a links or heathland the course can never be as true to golf as possible but you can still design good courses. It is just that since the 1960's the penal school of thought has run wild in modern parkland designs.

Are you advocating parkland over links then Mac?

No, I am advocating utilising better design and course set up. I am not stupid enough to think that only links courses should exist. What I object to is modern water laden penal designs where strategy is largely removed from the game.

But links courses have a pretty big water hazard as a feature. Generally people call it the sea.

Welcome to LJ's daily wind up thread I can't wait for Friday when LJ informs us about the benefits of municipal par 3 pitch and putt courses. How this type of course teaches greatness and how its the only place to teach pure putting on true greens 8)

Doc wrote:Welcome to LJ's daily wind up thread I can't wait for Friday when LJ informs us about the benefits of municipal par 3 pitch and putt courses. How this type of course teaches greatness and how its the only place to teach pure putting on true greens 8)

I'm hurt you would think this....

However you have the wrong attributes... pitch and putt is on my list due to the reduced times taken to go round, the lower ground area required for 18 holes, the reduced price and also the accessibility in inner cities.

i'm not sure how much truth there is in this but apparently the beach was made out of bounds at crail as canny locals were checking the tide tables and picking tee/ ballot times in medals which coincided with low tide, so that if they did push one onto the beach, they'd still have a shot and often a shorter one.

when is a water hazard not a water hazard? when it's a beach...

I'm waiting in anticipation for the thread 'Why Scotland has never produced any good courses'. That will be a big day and will probably crash the site and poor Mac will bite and probably have a heart attack

LondonJonnyO wrote:But links courses have a pretty big water hazard as a feature. Generally people call it the sea.

How often does the sea come into play on most links courses?

From my local courses in east lothian I can think of about holes.

2,3,4,8 on Kilspindie

None at craigielaw (not sure it counts as a true links)

None at gullane's three courses

None at lufness

None at Muirfield

Not played Renaissance or Archerfield but dont think they are that close to the sea.

1st and 2nd north berwick (maybe 14 if you really misjudge the blind approach, although I have only seen this happen once.

Maybe 2 holes at the Glen, the par three on the back nine and the following hole.

Maybe 3/4 holes at dunbar, not played it for a while so cant remember specifics.

I could do a similar list for other regions but I get the feeling the trend will continue as the links courses tend to be built a little in from the sea on the more rolling ground as opposed to the more dramatic dunes right on the beach.

Before we get to that we have to go through Heathland, Forest courses, American Style, Par 3, Crazy golf and finally we have online golf to review.

Then we'll get to scotlands allegations to have invented the game.

Parkland, Links, Heathland. Come on ladies its all golf. Except for the old course that's just rubbish

McLaren wrote:

LondonJonnyO wrote:But links courses have a pretty big water hazard as a feature. Generally people call it the sea.

How often does the sea come into play on most links courses?

From my local courses in east lothian I can think of about holes.

2,3,4,8 on Kilspindie

None at craigielaw (not sure it counts as a true links)

None at gullane's three courses

None at lufness

None at Muirfield

Not played Renaissance or Archerfield but dont think they are that close to the sea.

1st and 2nd north berwick (maybe 14 if you really misjudge the blind approach, although I have only seen this happen once.

Maybe 2 holes at the Glen, the par three on the back nine and the following hole.

Maybe 3/4 holes at dunbar, not played it for a while so cant remember specifics.

I could do a similar list for other regions but I get the feeling the trend will continue as the links courses tend to be built a little in from the sea on the more rolling ground as opposed to the more dramatic dunes right on the beach.

But as is often stated the presence of a potential hazard makes it a hazard. If people can see the water they tense up and often hit it way offline attempting to steer the ball. Thus the ocean is clearly a hazard on holes routed nearby for the average slasher.

LJ, not sure how many links you have played but believe the sea is often so far in the distance or out of view it won't be affecting anyone.

The wind will be much more in the players mind than being within half a mile of the sea.

Lets see... The Old Course. The New Course. The Jubilee. Carnoustie. Royal St Georges. Princes. Kingsbarns. Deal (RCP). And probably a few more

Take it this is todays anuall annoy mac thread!

The truth be told not many links courses are bang on the coastline, but there's a few big ones that are, one tough one springs to mind Royal Porthcawl. But still the worst links and way over-rated one is TOC

Ok, so you have a nice breadth of experience on some very good courses. So how often on those courses were you worried about an offline shot finding water or having to carry a water hazard.

By the way I am very envious of you having played RSG, princes and deal, I would love to play those courses. More so than than the courses on the north west coast of england.

I really like your approach in this thread - go the other side of the argument to make the very point that you were trying to make yesterday by getting those with differing views to make a case for you. I even see that Mac bit at the very first effort...

As for the Old Course, I'm afraid that I can't agree that it's just rubbish. One of the great golfing experiences that you can have in my opinion.

sharrison01 wrote:I really like your approach in this thread - go the other side of the argument to make the very point that you were trying to make yesterday by getting those with differing views to make a case for you. I even see that Mac bit at the very first effort...

As for the Old Course, I'm afraid that I can't agree that it's just rubbish. One of the great golfing experiences that you can have in my opinion.

Such an action would require a cunning devious mind with careful planning and forethought. I don't know if I can be described in such diabolical terms.

McLaren wrote:Ok, so you have a nice breadth of experience on some very good courses. So how often on those courses were you worried about an offline shot finding water or having to carry a water hazard.

By the way I am very envious of you having played RSG, princes and deal, I would love to play those courses. More so than than the courses on the north west coast of england.

They aren't hard to get onto compared to some of those in Scotland... You can probably get a b&b and do them all in a long weekend. Fly into Gatwick or City airport and it's only a short jaunt down to the coast.

No I am sure they are quite easy to get a round on its just I have never visited that part of the country. I just need to find someone crazy enough to travel the length of the country just to play some golf.


As for my first post backing you up, it was in fact the complete opposite. I was pointing out that parkland courses do not need to favour the set up you championed yesterday and many times in the past.

It's no different from a golfing trip to Ireland or something.

Lets see. Using 12/8 - 14/8 as an example

Edinburgh to London City return flight: 120quid
London St Pancras to Sandwich train: 35 quid
2 nights B&B in the Princes Lodge with 2 rounds of golf: 165 quid.
Play both of those of the saturday and then RSG friday(at 150) and deal sunday before flying home (at 150 quid as well)

and you've had a good golfing break for around 650 quid or so.

Mac
Don't bother, save your money and stay in beautiful East Lothian.

SE Kent is a bit like Essex, need I say more.
NW Kent is quite nice though

LondonJonnyO wrote:

sharrison01 wrote:I really like your approach in this thread - go the other side of the argument to make the very point that you were trying to make yesterday by getting those with differing views to make a case for you. I even see that Mac bit at the very first effort...

As for the Old Course, I'm afraid that I can't agree that it's just rubbish. One of the great golfing experiences that you can have in my opinion.

Such an action would require a cunning devious mind with careful planning and forethought. I don't know if I can be described in such diabolical terms.

McLaren wrote:Ok, so you have a nice breadth of experience on some very good courses. So how often on those courses were you worried about an offline shot finding water or having to carry a water hazard.

By the way I am very envious of you having played RSG, princes and deal, I would love to play those courses. More so than than the courses on the north west coast of england.

They aren't hard to get onto compared to some of those in Scotland... You can probably get a b&b and do them all in a long weekend. Fly into Gatwick or City airport and it's only a short jaunt down to the coast.

I'm fully expecting tomorrow's post to argue that the 74-79 and 97-10 Labour governments left the country broke and on it's knees for the good of the people to help them more greatly appreciate the good times...

Doon the Water wrote:Mac
Don't bother, save your money and stay in beautiful East Lothian.

SE Kent is a bit like Essex, need I say more.
NW Kent is quite nice though

With a bit of luck you will soon need a passport to see either...

sharrison01 wrote:

Doon the Water wrote:Mac
Don't bother, save your money and stay in beautiful East Lothian.

SE Kent is a bit like Essex, need I say more.
NW Kent is quite nice though

With a bit of luck you will soon need a passport to see either...

If we're closing the borders I'd also like to see a visa requirement for scotsmen coming south of the wall. And criminal record checks for prior offences of sheep stealing.

Or
The people of Scotland are pressing the government for a state funeral for the Blessed Maggie Maggie Maggie when she finally goes.

Doon the Water wrote:Or
The people of Scotland are pressing the government for a state funeral for the Blessed Maggie Maggie Maggie when she finally goes.

That would be Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, PC, FRS to those north of Luton thank you.

I think the Queen of Scotland or The Duke of Rothesay might have the final say.

very good threads LJ

been reading a while now. best threads since the happy gilmore fiasco !

£650 for a two night golf break, wow bargain. I have travelled half way around the world for less.

Might have to stick to East Lothian as suggested. Given I can reach east lothian within 30 mins, St andrews in under 1 hour 30 and ayrshire in under 2 hours is there really any excuse for spending that amount of money on a golf trip?

More ideas for your well thought through and researched threads LJ. How about ladies should only be allowed to play on muni courses, or ladies should play from the yellow tees

offthehosel wrote:very good threads LJ

been reading a while now. best threads since the happy gilmore fiasco !

To be honest they are written in a wind up mind frame. but with an intent. there are strengths and weaknesses to each type of course. And I'm looking at those in isolation. And it does at least encourage interaction on an otherwise dull wednesday.

Doc wrote:More ideas for your well thought through and researched threads LJ. How about ladies should only be allowed to play on muni courses, or ladies should play from the yellow tees

Not sure where you're going with that.

I have the answer.

Mac will know this course as it is in East Lothian

Longniddry Golf Club
9 holes parkland
9 holes links

Mind you I am also a great lover of heathland courses, especially the Surrey ones.

Doon the Water wrote:Mind you I am also a great lover of heathland courses, especially the Surrey ones.

Tomorrow they are in the firing line!

I know Longniddry and have played it a few times. Are there really 9 proper links holes, last time I played it was about 4/5 years ago but I dont remember that many links holes?

Don't disparage Surrey!!

There are many examples of hybrid courses. Clacton is another... although it lacks the sandy substrata of a true links

Mac
Re Longniddry
Holes 4 to 9 are pine tree/ buckthorn lined and the rest are linksy.

One of my favourite courses, a bit overlooked because of it's famous neighbours.

Did you know that the bright orange buckthorn berries are edible, as a child I was told that they were deadly poisonous.

Yes no doubt that Longniddry is a very good course and if I remember correctly designed by Colt. I have been guilty of over overlooking it for its more famous neighbours so maybe I should reacquaint myself with the course. Am I right in thinking the clubhouse is a bit snooty and that jacket and tie are required for entry?


EDIT: Just had a look and indeed it was an HS Colt. Also at £30 after 15:00 might look to get down soon.

Lundin Links, Scotscraig, Monifieth and Elie are also courses that are neither fully links, nor fully parkland, heathland or any other type of course.

Super,

I have not played scotscraig, would you say it is worth a play? I am maybe a little guilty of not exploring the courses around st andrews, I just find the new and jubilee such good value.

Well it's an open qualifier so yes, I would say it's worth a go. I prefer Ladybank though. With the exception of Kingsbarns it is the finest course in Fife. (yes, even better than your beloved St.Andrews)

What is one mans food is another mans poison

Clubhouse was pretty friendly when I used to play there in the 1960's ('')

My lasting memory of the clubhouse is holing a full 5 iron for an eagle in front of the balcony at a busy compitition

'It's good to be young and daring'
Bonus points to anyone who knows where that comes from?

Slow week at work is it LJ?

I always knew you were contrary, but take care when you come to clifftop courses, Mac just might get it in his head to fly down and push you off one!

Of course you do have time to prepare, it will be towards the end of next week I suspect.

the dukes, st andrews is a nice mix of heathland and parkland. have to say i prefer the heathland section.

Nothing wrong with heathland courses 8)