New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

TJ wrote:What the PRL said.  They were saying how much the RCC was worth and how much each union would get from it.  That implies they had "sold" all the games.

They haven't specifically said how much it will be worth, just that there will be more money than the ERC have negotiated because of what they've managed to negotiate and what the French are expecting to get.  They won't know for certain what it is worth until the French have sold their rights.  The LNR ccertainly wouldn't be on board with the PLR if they had sold rights to their games, and there wouldn't be the money they are alluding to if they had.

blah-ha-ha and boo-hoo nevermind . Feel sorry for Chiefs mind you - massive kick in the stones for them .

So in the end their own organisational structures appear to be their own downfall.  The PRL/LNR have been moaning for years that the voting structure in the ERC is unfair.  But when the chips are down both organisations are run by majority votes of their member clubs.  This is why the PRL have a salary cap (despite every top side being against it) because the lesser sides stick together and deny them the ability to operate how they would choose to.  

The LNR with 14 voting clubs was always going to be similar when the chips are down.  For me I am sure a major vote swinger must have been that with no CC to worry about any bottom side who does not qualify (in a reduced team structure for the HC), now has a clear pathway to focus on league survival.  Financially they even still get their share of cash even though probably 4-6 teams will not even feature in any European capacity.  That means the top sides will actually be under more pressure to secure bigger squads in order to fend off the sides who can fully dedicate themselves to TOP14 rugby.  Granted this is only for 1 year but should this play out longer than that, it can impact how the top sides in france sign players because squad numbers will be even more important than necessarily fielding the best matchday 23.  Given the salary cap they have they may be forced to abandon their current pathway of signing the world stars of the game, which in turn will strengthen world rugby as a whole.  

I think the irony here is that a voting system the LNR are against within the ERC is the same structure that has forced them to continue in the ERC within their very own system.

The only thing which really is unclear, is what sort of sides will the best French sides field.  If Racings boss is that unhappy at being forced to play, he may opt to play a development side instead of a full strength team.

Either way it seems to me at times both PRL/LNR almost want to be able to do whatever choose but clearly both organisations prevent that from happening (in the name of parity - which of course is every club owners worst nightmare).

mystiroakey wrote:Eventually they would do.. Things change with time.

If they don't rejoin it's pretty clear that they will be pursuing other avenues

who with? Go on name anyone that realistically will play in a comp with them. Need around 10 teams of similar quality to PRL teams.

What to me is even funnier though is that the RRW who probably had an interesting meeting today to discuss their options regarding the Champions Cup, will now have no options available to them (not that this was feasible for them anyway). It underlines how irrelevant the RRW really are.

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Eventually they would do.. Things change with time.

If they don't rejoin it's pretty clear that they will be pursuing other avenues

who with?  Go on name anyone  that realistically will play in a comp with them.  Need around 10 teams of similar quality to PRL teams.  

They don't need anything in the short term. But everything in the long run. And they certainly don't need any specific numbers to start with. That is nonsense of the highest order.

Who is going to play in this mystery new future competition with the english clubs? go on name some possibilities.

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Eventually they would do.. Things change with time.

If they don't rejoin it's pretty clear that they will be pursuing other avenues

who with?  Go on name anyone  that realistically will play in a comp with them.  Need around 10 teams of similar quality to PRL teams.  

Well there are ways round that. For starters firing the moron who put them into this position probably will give them the "It was that fool, don't hold it against us defence."

Interestingly enough though the French may still leave because its a 1 year extension and from my understanding the BT deal will stop the PRL sides from joining for several years (not just next year). The BT vs Sky thing will still be a block for both the ERC and the PRL because neither can renegade on their contracts. So this saga will continue for the next 18 months as well.

I would imagine the PRL have lost a lot of trust in the LNR as McCafferty stated he had assurance from them they would be leaving the ERC. Not sure he will fall for that again.......or will he?

So, LNR appear to have deferred the demise of ERC for a year, provided there are governance modifications (wonder what those are, and did Camou promise them?). RCC (or another new entity under a different name) has similarly been deferred by a year.

I wonder how Camou and his poodles will respond.

Avenues will open, and if they can't I am pretty certain they will rejoin the ERC .

I read somewhere that the vote was unanimous to stay in the HCup.

LNR don't care about the English clubs. They just don't want to turn up to meet the FFR next week with their tails completely between their legs!

I'd imagine the reference to a new company running the European Cup instead of the ERC - thats the LNR trying to look as if they cared as they know the English clubs cannot participate in a competition run by the ERC who have signed a contract with Sky.

Its really shocking to see how a couple of old farts could stitch up the brains of britain so completely.  

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
I wonder how Camou and his poodles will respond.

"Sorry lads, you are not getting 2m euro for that  

You need to sign up for 10 years."

There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams. If you think there is Mystri then name them

BTW - the only ones who really have lost out are the English club supporters who as part of their season tickets would have seen some of the best players in the world playing at their venues. Now they have 6 less games to watch and no diversity in terms of teams they are playing. For me its a disgrace a side like the Tigers for example wont be present in Europe.

I do think though if McCafferty is not careful his days may be numbered because the PRL could have left the ERC without all the threats and mismanagement and left themselves some allies. The other thing the PRL have managed to do is alienate the RFU as well because they will only be involved in future negotiations as outsiders (which cant be a good place to be).

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

Well if McCafferty is anything to go by then he may talk to South Africa again. Maybe he will go after the SH teams as a whole. Who knows? To be honest, who cares.

Bottom line is the HC (the worlds best club tournament) will continue for another year.

I'd love to have seen the votes though - must have been close because some of the top sides definitely wanted to leave. Wouldn't be surprised if Toulon may have been the swinging vote.

Welsh shroom the PRL still have allies- the other 5 unions still want the PRL back. not sure what your point is, because that is all that matters.

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

You keep saying this, but TJ's question is very simple, what credible options or 'avenues' are there for the PRL?  If you can't think of any, which you clearly can't, then the answer is surely none?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

You keep saying this, but TJ's question is very simple, what credible options or 'avenues' are there for the PRL?  If you can't think of any, which you clearly can't, then the answer is surely none?

at this present I dont know- but that doesn't distract the point being made.

The doors are open at the ERC for them to come back when the BT thing is over that is clear- so if they dont come back they will be doing something else

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

Yes but how long can they continue spinning that yarn before weakening their own league. We all know Europe's best players want to test themselves in Europe. If the French do stay for the longer term, can you really see the current Aviva stars staying? Yes English internationals might stay but guys like George North would be leaving Northampton faster than you can say "adieu". Without top talent the league essentially will become a feeder league.

Welshmushroom wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

Well if McCafferty is anything to go by then he may talk to South Africa again.  Maybe he will go after the SH teams as a whole.  Who knows?  To be honest, who cares.

Bottom line is the HC (the worlds best club tournament) will continue for another year.  

I'd love to have seen the votes though - must have been close because some of the top sides definitely wanted to leave.  Wouldn't be surprised if Toulon may have been the swinging vote.

I'm not sure it was that close, Geoff who made this topic said in another thread yesterday that support for the RCC had diminished to 4 Top14 clubs.  That was yesterday so more may have moved in the last 24 hours and allegedly Jackie Lorenzetti of Racing Metro stormed out of the meeting at the airport in fury.

mystiroakey wrote:Welsh shroom the PRL still have allies- the other 5 unions still want the PRL back. not sure what your point is, because that is all that matters.

There is a difference between wanting them back for commercial reasons and because everyone actually want them there. Bottom line the PRL have alienated themselves from the other Unions (maybe not individual provinces/regions).

mystiroakey wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

You keep saying this, but TJ's question is very simple, what credible options or 'avenues' are there for the PRL?  If you can't think of any, which you clearly can't, then the answer is surely none?

at this present I dont know- but that doesn't distract the point being made.

The doors are open at the ERC for them to come back when the BT thing is over that is clear- so if they dont come back they will be doing something else

See you in 2017 then! I think that's when the current BT deal expires....

Welshmushroom wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:There is not a single credible option for the PRL to have another comp without the HC teams.  If you think there is Mystri then name them

as i have explained to you - if they dont rejoin they will pursue another avenue - i cant say it any clearer and i have no idea why you keep arguing this. They know a lot more about it than me..

You see the PRL have been very rigid from the start/ there has never once been a line of going back.. If that truely is there line(even though none of us actually believe it)- they will certainly explore other avenues should they come about.

Yes but how long can they continue spinning that yarn before weakening their own league.  We all know Europe's best players want to test themselves in Europe.  If the French do stay for the longer term, can you really see the current Aviva stars staying?  Yes English internationals might stay but guys like George North would be leaving Northampton faster than you can say "adieu".  Without top talent the league essentially will become a feeder league.

eventually its all on France. because france dont actually give a feick about anyone else but themselves.

I think we are all at the same page. We are pretty much 90% sure that the erc will go ahead without england for the next 1 or 2 years(dependant on the bt contract) and then English clubs will rejoin .

But if the PRL really wants to dig its heels in - well they can cant there- But there will come a point where all English fans will have an issue if things dont work out and at that point the management will change.

2018 I think.

Welshmushroom wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Welsh shroom the PRL still have allies- the other 5 unions still want the PRL back. not sure what your point is, because that is all that matters.

There is a difference between wanting them back for commercial reasons and because everyone actually want them there.  Bottom line the PRL have alienated themselves from the other Unions (maybe not individual provinces/regions).  

the french and wlesh certainly dont have any major issues with our lines

the Italians dont give a feick

and everyone wants us back in- the reasons for are immaterial anyway

18 months is all thats needed to break the contract isnt it.

so 2 years would be the max if the PRL wants back in, off course BT could also just let them off-

Bbc is now running the story of the PRL coming back into the fold. Mccafferty says they will look at options. Given that the format and money was already agreeable to all parties there is hope yet. The rebranding of the erc is just that, rebranding with a little tinkering. If the parties will all now sit down and talk about a share of voting rights etc I don't think we will be too long from an agreement. McCafferty and the PRL now have no stick to use (no RCC) and hopefully we will see everyone sitting down now. At least the noises McCafferty is making suggest the BT may not be the stumbling block we thought it was


Wales online running that the PRL may yet participate in 2014-2015 under the erc if there are concrete plans for a new body to run the competition the year after. Depending on the composition of said body I'd say it's been a fairly positive day

Standulstermen wrote:Bbc is now running the story of the PRL coming back into the fold. Mccafferty says they will look at options. Given that the format and money was already agreeable to all parties there is hope yet. The rebranding of the erc is just that, rebranding with a little tinkering. If the parties will all now sit down and talk about a share of voting rights etc I don't think we will be too long from an agreement. McCafferty and the PRL now have no stick to use (no RCC) and hopefully we will see everyone sitting down now. At least the noises McCafferty is making suggest the BT may not be the stumbling block we thought it was

Really , fingers crossed

McCaffrey is desparatly tying to save face knowing he will be out on his er for the utter shambles he has created and if he thinks he is getting any more concession or even perhpas the previous offer he is very very wrong. He has a take it or leave it option now.

So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Bt may still be a stumbling block, but I think we all realise that they would never cripple the ap clubs as that isn't in there best interest..

This just keeps on going doesn't it?

Every time we get somewhere it goes back to the start again.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Sky have a 4 year contract for European rugby. I suspect BT won't be factoring in until that is up for renewal

And actually progress is being made from the starting point - well I hope so anyway!

The quote from Mcafferty is

"If somebody can outline what that transition would entail, how the issues would be overcome and exactly what the new structure in 2015-16 would be, then we could look at it," McCafferty told Press Association Sport.

"If we can see there is a new structure to replace ERC and we have the detail of that, then something might be feasible. At the moment it's all very general and difficult to comment on."

Edit: that's from the Belfast telegraph link on the previous page

The French are playing it the way they always do - following the fair wind. They sided with the PRL as long as there was the prospect of more cash, but when that evaporated with the lack of Celtic support, they quickly revert to plan B. Now they will wait to see if the PRL can come up with anything more attractive in the next year and follow that wind if it is stronger or stay where they are if it isn't.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Nope - no goverence changes that is quite clear. Goze adn McCaffrey may want it but its not going to happen - that was quite cler from the 5 union statement. change the name of the ERC - no problem but the unions will remain in charge.

Is everyone suddenly forgetting the FFR saying they won't allow the massive new TV deal? It doesn't seem to be getting mention when talking about this 'change of heart'.

I really don't understand the point of the name change.. If it's just a name change.. Why?

mystiroakey wrote:I really don't understand the point of the name change.. If it's just a name change.. Why?

Face saving perhaps?

Standulstermen wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Sky have a 4 year contract for European rugby. I suspect BT won't be factoring in until that is up for renewal

Sky have a contract with ERC. LNR are saying that ERC will come to an end after next season. There's the optimism - Sky for the next 4 years is pessimism in that conflict will continue.

HammerofThunor wrote:The quote from Mcafferty is

"If somebody can outline what that transition would entail, how the issues would be overcome and exactly what the new structure in 2015-16 would be, then we could look at it," McCafferty told Press Association Sport.

"If we can see there is a new structure to replace ERC and we have the detail of that, then something might be feasible. At the moment it's all very general and difficult to comment on."

Edit: that's from the Belfast telegraph link on the previous page

POt kettle black! He can buzz off. No governece changes - that is quite clear. that was the red line the 5 unions would not cross. McCafreey has nothing to negotiate with. He comes in under existing agreements or he goes away. No more negotiation take it or leave it and unions retain control.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Sky have a 4 year contract for European rugby. I suspect BT won't be factoring in until that is up for renewal

Sky have a contract with ERC. LNR are saying that ERC will come to an end after next season. There's the optimism - Sky for the next 4 years is pessimism in that conflict will continue.

there is no conflict left. the position is decided. the 5 unions will go ahead with a euro cup based on the deal hammered out recently. The PRL can join or they can not join. they have nothing to bargain with.

stub wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I really don't understand the point of the name change.. If it's just a name change.. Why?

Face saving perhaps?

For who? 

Only an idiot would think a name change only wins you anything.

Unless it's a marketing decision and the ERC is set to stay for the long haul but perhaps get into other things or it will be a separate company it doesn't make sense.

TJ wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Sky have a 4 year contract for European rugby. I suspect BT won't be factoring in until that is up for renewal

Sky have a contract with ERC. LNR are saying that ERC will come to an end after next season. There's the optimism - Sky for the next 4 years is pessimism in that conflict will continue.

there is no conflict left.  the position is decided.  the 5 unions will go ahead with a euro cup based on the deal hammered out recently.  The PRL can join or they can not join.  they have nothing to bargain with.

The bargaining has been reached , but maybe the problem still is bt and if this new deal happens it could pave the way for individual leagues to get individual tv deals. Which could solve the bt problem(if it exists )

TJ wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:So, optimistically, we can see HC + Amlin (20 + 20) next season with Sky, with some kind of governance changes. The season after, new competitions (20 + 20 + ?) with a new entity in control, with BT + others.

Nope - no goverence changes that is quite clear.  Goze adn McCaffrey may want it but its not going to happen - that was quite cler from the 5 union statement.  change the name of the ERC - no problem but the unions will remain in charge.

Well, that seems to be what LNR are offering - governance changes for next season are required (I refer to LNR's press release). If Camou doesn't accept, then it's back to square one (I remain unconvinced that Camou's 4 poodles have any relevance in the negotiations).

mystiroakey wrote:

stub wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I really don't understand the point of the name change.. If it's just a name change.. Why?

Face saving perhaps?

For who? 

Only an idiot would think a name change only wins you anything.

Unless it's a marketing decision and the ERC is set to stay for the long haul but perhaps get into other things or it will be a separate company it doesn't make sense.

I agree that merely a name change would be a token gesture in reality but it seems that there are some big egos at play here and perhaps it's conceivable that token gestures might just help. As you say though perhaps some sort of ERC offshoot will appear which can perhaps market/sell itself...

Isn't it that the PRL's BT deal means that they cannot participate in a competition run by a company called the ERC.  Thus a name change would be a loop hole?

Artful_Dodger wrote:Isn't it that the PRL's BT deal means that they cannot participate in a competition run by a company called the ERC.  Thus a name change would be a loop hole?

No that can't hold up legally.

If it's the same company that's all that matters.

Your company number doesn't change, just the name