New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:indeed i am supportive of your view Big. For the reasons you described, and others.

I have no doubt that being excluded by Camou and the celtic unions is going to steel the resolve of the RFU and PRL to absolutely make the best of English rugby.

and after a season withouth HC, if england perform fantastically in the RWC, and that provides a massive grass roots lift to club and amateur rugby in england, i would only consider rejoining ERC if camou came cap in hand on bended knee. and i don't think i would settle for only 1/3 of the money for AP teams.

Neither the french or english clubs need the HC. everyone else does. that's all.

As an Exeter supporter at club level, I totally disagree with this - we need to be playing against the best in Europe, there is absolutely no question of that.  Thus far in the Heino we have met Leinster, Clermont, Scarlets, Blouses, and Glasgow, and will shortly add Toulon to that list - that level of competition and different styles of play is simply not available in the AP alone

but you also have a scottish hat ASBO. and part of my point is that not playing HC will be good for England's national team chances in RWC. i think the french teams have a pretty similar style to the english ones, just with more glamorous names on the backs of their shirts.

regarding camou's anti-english stance, it was quote above by i think it was sin-e...something about payback for rfu betrayal.

mystiroakey wrote:We dont want out, but if it happens it happens, lets look to the positives.

Our players would be fresh for the WC is one,.

And in the long run all teams will be back in..

But not battle hardened, so to speak?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

i haven't seen any evidence of this?  Have you any links?

He's hardly pro English if he wants to isolate the English is he?

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:indeed i am supportive of your view Big. For the reasons you described, and others.

I have no doubt that being excluded by Camou and the celtic unions is going to steel the resolve of the RFU and PRL to absolutely make the best of English rugby.

and after a season withouth HC, if england perform fantastically in the RWC, and that provides a massive grass roots lift to club and amateur rugby in england, i would only consider rejoining ERC if camou came cap in hand on bended knee. and i don't think i would settle for only 1/3 of the money for AP teams.

Neither the french or english clubs need the HC. everyone else does. that's all.

As an Exeter supporter at club level, I totally disagree with this - we need to be playing against the best in Europe, there is absolutely no question of that.  Thus far in the Heino we have met Leinster, Clermont, Scarlets, Blouses, and Glasgow, and will shortly add Toulon to that list - that level of competition and different styles of play is simply not available in the AP alone

but you also have a scottish hat ASBO. and part of my point is that not playing HC will be good for England's national team chances in RWC. i think the french teams have a pretty similar style to the english ones, just with more glamorous names on the backs of their shirts.

regarding camou's anti-english stance, it was quote above by i think it was sin-e...something about payback for rfu betrayal.

I do offer an opinion as a Scot supporting an English club, quins, yes, which I think gives me a fairly unique perspective. But I wouldn't compare English and French playing styles in any way tbh. Thanks for the camou pointer

beshocked wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

i haven't seen any evidence of this?  Have you any links?

He's hardly pro English if he wants to isolate the English is he?

That may be the case, beshocked, but neither is it the same as being anti-English surely? That would equate to 'I don't want the English in the competition no matter what ...'?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:We dont want out, but if it happens it happens, lets look to the positives.

Our players would be fresh for the WC is one,.

And in the long run all teams will be back in..

But not battle hardened, so to speak?

looking at what happens to the irish players at international level, the Argentina players after what they have gone through and even NZ/Oz at the end of seasons , I am pretty happy for our players not to be battle hardened!!

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

I certainly don't want the English excluded but 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder and many of us still, and always will, disagree on that word 'fair' as it pertains to this debate.  Now at least though, beshocked, you appreciate the feeling that has been doing the rounds these last few months in the Pro12 circles.  The feelings are always genuine and the feeling of being 'screwed' was always there.

It's not a pleasant feeling and now you appreciate how unpleasant if feels.  To be the ones isolated, the ones 'cheated' on, the ones 'backstabbed' by an apparent ally.  The differing arguments on structures and detail may or may not have merit between all sides - but the feelings are the only genuine parts of the debate that we can all sense.

Of course a European contest without the English is poor and inconsequential really in a competitive sense - as you need to play everyone to prove you are a European champion of worth.  But would PRL have subscribed to that notion?  I don't think the PRL would shed a tear for the absence of the Irish..or the Welsh from European competition.  Business is business would be the excuse.  "Market forces had to pull away from those arenas.  Europe needed a bigger voice in bigger nations.  The Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italians will understand that reality when the hard-feelings have subsided.  Besides, their players can come play for us now anyway"

We should all want a solution that included all...but the sourness is that many of us knew that the emotion of a shared European competition was running actually and inevitably contrary to the ultimate wishes of some.

not battle hardened? 22AP games, 3AIs, 5x6N matches, 2013 NZ tour. I actually think this is a much more reasonable number of matches to play.

will also allow much more RFU sponsored Eng squad training time during the regular season. Will go a long way towards getting the advantages of central contracting without the hassle.

dont want to refer to wendyball, but for me a key reason that germany always always do well at national team level is that their domestic league breaks mid-winter for 5 weeks and that time is used for national squad training. they are a team that always punches way above the weight of their individual players. why shouldnt the same be true for rugby?

Okay alasbut100ofus in my opinion Camou is taking an anti English stance. Good enough?

From what's he been saying I hardly get the impression he's willing to sit down and try and work things out.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

ah SF, shall we keep going back in time pointing fingers at screwers? should we go back to ERC and the celtic unions 18months-2years ago then?

it doesnt matter anymore. whats done is done. but i am shocked that anyone thinks the ERC is a fit for purpose organisation. PRL refusing. top14 allegedly being force-marched at gunpoint? does this augur well? is this a promising beginning?

Who screwed whom first? Is that your taunt?

Well look at the history of the HEC and you'll find your answer as English and French 'auto' entries rose throughout the time as others remained either static or dwindled.

Who Screwed Who First? Yeah, it'd be an okay movie I suppose, but I'd still wait until it hit the small screen before I'd watch it.

beshocked wrote:Okay alasbut100ofus in my opinion Camou is taking an anti English stance. Good enough?

From what's he been saying I hardly get the impression he's willing to sit down and try and work things out.

Sounds like someone McCafferty should get along with!!!!! ...on a golf range...not in a boardroom. Same personality types anyway.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

I certainly don't want the English excluded but 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder and many of us still, and always will, disagree on that word 'fair' as it pertains to this debate.  Now at least though, beshocked, you appreciate the feeling that has been doing the rounds these last few months in the Pro12 circles.  The feelings are always genuine and the feeling of being 'screwed' was always there.

It's not a pleasant feeling and now you appreciate how unpleasant if feels.  To be the ones isolated, the ones 'cheated' on, the ones 'backstabbed' by an apparent ally.  The differing arguments on structures and detail may or may not have merit between all sides - but the feelings are the only genuine parts of the debate that we can all sense.

Of course a European contest without the English is poor and inconsequential really in a competitive sense - as you need to play everyone to prove you are a European champion of worth.  But would PRL have subscribed to that notion?  I don't think the PRL would shed a tear for the absence of the Irish..or the Welsh from European competition.  Business is business would be the excuse.  "Market forces had to pull away from those arenas.  Europe needed a bigger voice in bigger nations.  The Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italians will understand that reality when the hard-feelings have subsided.  Besides, their players can come play for us now anyway"

We should all want a solution that included all...but the sourness is that many of us knew that the emotion of a shared European competition was running actually and inevitably contrary to the ultimate wishes of some.

There is a significant difference between not being in a competition at all and having 2 or 3 less spots. I think wanting the Pro12 going down to 8 teams is justified. That is my stance.

The English have not cheated or backstabbed anyone. They've been more heavy handed than anything. It's not been cold,calculated and cunning like the French approach. The English clubs have been at the frontline taking the brunt of criticism whilst the French have sat back waiting for the best deal for them.

You might dislike the English approach for it's heavy handedness but it's been bold.

It's been bold in openly attacking the Pro12 league, its exclusive structures...and it's Unions...all of them.  That is my immovable stance.

You see............ like I said, we're never going to agree on where and how the word 'fair' gets used in this debate, beshocked.

Do we want a Europe with all players onboard?  Well, I do.  All of them.  English (as you choose to name them not me )  French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian.  All of them...not some of them.

beshocked wrote:
There is a significant difference between not being in a competition at all and having 2 or 3 less spots.

Just a PS.  That allusion irritates the hell out of me.  I understand its use but it doesn't make it any less irritating.

I repeat - over and over - Scottish side excelling at HEC doesn't interest me in the slightest.  They're not Irish.  Welsh region doing well in a European competition is as meaningless to me as a English side doing well - neither of them Irish.
You want to see 'English' clubs in Europe.  I want to see Irish ones....under the same rules of engagement as the English ones (auto places not if's and maybes).

Thus the cycle goes round and round...and that word 'fair' gets used by all of us in different ways.

SecretFly wrote:It's been bold in openly attacking the Pro12 league, its exclusive structures...and it's Unions...all of them.  That is my immovable stance.

You see............ like I said, we're never going to agree on where and how the word 'fair' gets used in this debate, beshocked.

Do we want a Europe with all players onboard?  Well, I do.  All of them.  English (as you choose to name them not me )  French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian.  All of them...not some of them.

Not sure whether all of them can be incorporated at the moment. Russians, Spanish, Romanians, Portuguese and Georgians probably, but not sure about the rest yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Unions come up with on Thursday.

I don't think the English will be excluded,

It's just another part of the games, the RFU have earned some respect from the other Unions the way they carried on the talks with the other Unions to try and reach agreement (whenever PRL wouldn't), this threat of no English teams seams to me to be a bit of a ploy to assist the RFU gain some power over the PRL.

However I don't know how this will work out, long run RFU work on behalf of clubs to get entry but clubs will make concessions to Union to do this. RFU then say PRL had no right to sell the European games to BT and leave the PRL and BT to settle it between them (don't know if court cases would happen?).

RFU will reinforce that it has to sign off any TV deals that the PRL make in future for league or anything, and will hold the PRL in check with that power in future.

kingshu, i think you may be underestimating where the RFU's sympathies lie. i honestly believe this whole episode will make it clear to both rfu and prl the importance of working together against everyone else rather than allowing themselves to be divided by other unions who couldnt give 2 poops about english national or english club rugby.

ian ritchie the rfu ceo is not from rugby. he is not a powerhungry egomaniac like camou, roger lewis, or ritchie's predecessor martyn thomas.

beshocked wrote:
There is a significant difference between not being in a competition at all and having 2 or 3 less spots. I think wanting the Pro12 going down to 8 teams is justified. That is my stance.

The English have not cheated or  backstabbed anyone. They've been more heavy handed than anything. It's not been cold,calculated and cunning like the French approach. The English clubs have been at the frontline taking the brunt of criticism whilst the French have sat back waiting for the best deal for them.

You might dislike the English approach for it's heavy handedness but it's been bold.

They have already conceded going down to 7. AND agreed to 3 league split of the money. Not good enough for the PRL though. These issues of fairness were just used to whip up a sense of injustice in "ordinary decent English Rugby fans" like yourself. The real issue was not money or fairness it was control, ALL ALONG.

Now they look to have condemned all those "ordinary decent English Rugby fans" who actually like playing in Europe, to exclusion from European competition.

I hope they back down for the good of the game in ALL of Europe. But especially for English Rugby fans who have the most to lose.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Not sure whether all of them can be incorporated at the moment. Russians, Spanish, Romanians, Portuguese and Georgians probably, but not sure about the rest yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Unions come up with on Thursday.

Well......... I know, it's complex, innit. So much to think about. I recommend we only think of ourselves??? Everyone with me? Yes?
The English should only think of themselves. The Irish should think only of themselves. The Spanish should only think of themselves......... and things will work out better than some people pretending they're being nice people and thinking about others.....

More self-indulgent ruthlessness, less sycophantic lying through clenched smiling teeth. Back to who screws whom - it's the only way really.

Don't worry about us Boy!

Well be just fine.  

Have I missed something, is there not a Franglo Rock tournament already set up for next season with a couple of Welsh clubs thrown into the mix?  When are the fixtures being announced? Ireland, Scotland and Italy are going to struggle being out in the cold.


The threats to exclude any of the 6Ns isn't beneficial to having a competition that can bridge the gap between domestic league and international tests.  Though a nation can only benefit from such a competition if they have their nationally qualified players competing in that competition in sufficient numbers to allow an international coach to select a competitive Test squad from it.

its about money for the prl and celtic unions. having a greater say over the commercial aspects of the competition will allow them to make more money.

its about control for camou who is engaged in the rugby equivalent of civil war.

this is not over yet. not even close. camou wanting power over his clubs and forcing the competition back into ERC, if that means the prl doesnt partake, will raise some serious concerns over money for the celtic unions.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:
There is a significant difference between not being in a competition at all and having 2 or 3 less spots.

Just a PS.  That allusion irritates the hell out of me.  I understand its use but it doesn't make it any less irritating.

I repeat - over and over - Scottish side excelling at HEC doesn't interest me in the slightest.  They're not Irish.  Welsh region doing well in a European competition is as meaningless to me as a English side doing well - neither of them Irish.
You want to see 'English' clubs in Europe.  I want to see Irish ones....under the same rules of engagement as the English ones (auto places not if's and maybes).

Thus the cycle goes round and round...and that word 'fair' gets used by all of us in different ways.

You want the same rules of engagement of the English ones? Well that's never going to be the case as long as you're in the Pro12 and have special perks.

You have 100% representation in the HC this season. The English representation in the HC is 50% of our AP clubs.

As it stands you are guaranteed 75% representation in the HC every season - Ulster,Munster and Leinster have been in every HC which helps your chances of winning it.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Not sure whether all of them can be incorporated at the moment. Russians, Spanish, Romanians, Portuguese and Georgians probably, but not sure about the rest yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Unions come up with on Thursday.

Well......... I know, it's complex, innit.  So much to think about.  I recommend we only think of ourselves???  Everyone with me?  Yes?
The English should only think of themselves.  The Irish should think only of themselves.  The Spanish should only think of themselves......... and things will work out better than some people pretending they're being nice people and thinking about others.....

More self-indulgent ruthlessness, less sycophantic lying through clenched smiling teeth.  Back to who screws whom - it's the only way really.

you and i have always agreed about this all along. all altruism in this debate is BS. pretty words to help get everyone what they want for themselves.

let the final battle commence...

december is gonna be interesting...FFR licence extension to LNR needs to be signed...WRR participation agreement w WRU needs to be signed...players swimming to France in the meantime...ERC meetings where some aren't invited. it's like a soap opera with so many sub-plots

quinsforever wrote:kingshu, i think you may be underestimating where the RFU's sympathies lie. i honestly believe this whole episode will make it clear to both rfu and prl the importance of working together against everyone else rather than allowing themselves to be divided by other unions who couldnt give 2 poops about english national or english club rugby.

ian ritchie the rfu ceo is not from rugby. he is not a powerhungry egomaniac like camou, roger lewis, or ritchie's predecessor martyn thomas.

Can't believe that you left Mark McCafferty off that list!

quinsforever wrote:
this is not over yet. not even close.

That's true. But the longer it goes on, the worse it will be for all rugby fans in all countries.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:kingshu, i think you may be underestimating where the RFU's sympathies lie. i honestly believe this whole episode will make it clear to both rfu and prl the importance of working together against everyone else rather than allowing themselves to be divided by other unions who couldnt give 2 poops about english national or english club rugby.

ian ritchie the rfu ceo is not from rugby. he is not a powerhungry egomaniac like camou, roger lewis, or ritchie's predecessor martyn thomas.

Can't believe that you left Mark McCafferty off that list!

fair point. i was only comparing union bosses though. mccafferty is definitely a very squeaky wheel, probe to antagonistic statements.

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well Munchkin you perhaps don't believe it but the English are actually quite a big draw contrary to what Sin e thinks.

Going to use Sin e's own TV figures against him.    It's expected that Saturday afternoon is prime TV, more so than Friday evening.

The games involving the English sides both have highest ratings.


Sky Sports 2
w/e 13 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) 242
2 LIVE JOHNSTONES PAINT TROPHY/#JOHNSTONES (TUE 1930 192
3 LIVE RUGBY-EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) 190
4 LIVE RUGBY-OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) 157
5 LIVE RUGBY-TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) 137
6 LIVE WORLD GRAND PRIX DARTS (FRI 1900) 135
7 WWE LATE NIGHT SMACKDOWN (FRI 2349) 100
8 ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY (MON 1930) 93
9 LIVE RUGBY-EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) 90
10 LIVE NFL- NEW ORLEANSNEW ENGLAND (SUN 2118) 88

My main point was that non-English sides are a much bigger draw than you like to pretend. Toulouse is as big a draw in that game (Saracens did not make the Top 10 the previous, unlike Edinburgh v Munster which was at an award time as well) and it certainly is embarrassing that such a big club like Leicester doesn't feature at all. I don't agree that Friday night is a bad night - there are very few games, no football to compete with.

I could easily retort that most of the people for the Toulon-Glasgow there were there to see Toulon and their stars.

Yes you are right. Saracens didn't make the top 10 in a game vs Connacht. Do you honestly think Connacht are a big draw? No one knows how big the viewing figures were.

Weren't Leicester facing Treviso who aren't exactly a big draw either?

Edinburgh vs Munster was on a Saturday at 1pm. Hardly a bad time.

Also Ulster-Leicester is nowhere to be seen.

You missed this part of my post where I cross referenced the teams that appeared in the Top 10 both weekends. The only English team to make the shortlisting was Harlequins.

The teams that make Top 10 viewing both weekends are:
The top draws are Harlequins, Leinster, Ospreys, Toulon, Munster.

Surprising that only two British teams would make the Top 10 in a UK combined market (Quins & Ospeys) and two Irish and 1 French team makes it.

Munster obviously pulled Edinburgh & Gloucester into the Top 10. Leicester or Saracens couldn't pull Ulster (a UK team) or Connacht into a Top 10 position.

It demonstrates that non-English teams are very attractive to a UK audience.

beshocked wrote:The English have not cheated or  backstabbed anyone. They've been more heavy handed than anything. It's not been cold,calculated and cunning like the French approach. The English clubs have been at the frontline taking the brunt of criticism whilst the French have sat back waiting for the best deal for them.

You might dislike the English approach for it's heavy handedness but it's been bold.

From what Derek McGrath said in that examiner.ie interview, the French wanted concessions (such as 20 teams, 1/3 revenue), but to remain within the ERC. McCafferty took them by surprise by announcing this new cup.

McCafferty has tried to bully the rest into joining this competition even though he has not supplied any financial details about what is in it for them.

He has treated the Unions with contempt (i.e., saying the Six Nations company can supply the refs, deal with the discipline, clean the toilets etc).

Of course they were going to be peed off with him.

beshocked wrote:

You have 100% representation in the HC this season. The English representation in the HC is 50% of our AP clubs.

As it stands you are guaranteed 75% representation in the HC every season - Ulster,Munster and Leinster have been in every HC which helps your chances of winning it.

Unfortunately, it's teams that play in European competition though, not percentages.

If 100% is the maximum level Ireland can achieve in HEC; then, using the same percentage benchmark, that gives England an eternal 150% of whatever Ireland is ever likely to accomplish.

Anyway......... we've been here before many many times!   I'm in a fairground and I can't get off this bloody Ferris wheel!

Sin é wrote:

He has treated the Unions with contempt (i.e., saying the Six Nations company can supply the refs, deal with the discipline, clean the toilets etc).

Of course they were going to be peed off with him.

If the Unions are meant to clean up after the PRL...who cleans up after them?

taxpayers?

RFU chief Ian Ritchie eager to restart European tournament talks
• RaboDirect Pro12 unions wait for decision by top 14 clubs
• Prospect of event diminishes if discussion delays continue

Paul Rees
theguardian.com, Tuesday 19 November 2013 11.56 GMT

The Rugby Football Union chief executive, Ian Ritchie, is trying to restart talks over the future of a European club tournament.

The Rugby Football Union chief executive, Ian Ritchie, is trying to restart negotiations over the future of a European club tournament after weeks of prevarication by the RaboDirect Pro12 unions.

Three meetings scheduled for this month have been postponed because the unions, who last month agreed to the demands of the French and English clubs that qualification for an elite European club tournament should be based on merit and that the proceeds should be split equally between the three leagues involved, are reluctant to address the issue of governance.
my comment (The Unions have addressed the issue of governance. Its their way or the highway)


The clubs, who last year gave notice that they would be pulling out of the Heineken Cup, which is organised by European Rugby Cup Ltd, at the end of the season, are organising a replacement tournament, the Rugby Champions Cup, and insist it will be run by clubs.

The French Rugby Federation has been obstructive towards the new tournament, saying among other things that it would flout French law, and the RaboDirect unions have been waiting to see whether the Top 14 clubs will be persuaded to commit to ERC. That appears unlikely. The Ligue Nationale de Rugby insists that the Top 14 clubs would just play league rugby if the FFR and the other unions prevented the Rugby Champions Cup from taking place and that is also the stance of Premiership Rugby. (no mention of the 2m bribe, or that the FFR are determined to stop the LNR and they are at the mercy of the FFR).

The Rabo unions have complained that they have not seen details of the television deal secured by Premiership Rugby with BT Sport but it is understood that the RFU has. The clubs maintain that the contract will boost income by 50%, leaving all six countries better off. The clubs have told the Rabo unions they would be given their money first if the Rugby Champions Cup goes ahead. If there were a shortfall in income, they would receive the amount promised in full, with the French and English clubs absorbing any deficit. (Sounds all very desparate at this stage).

But that is conditional on the unions agreeing that the tournament, unlike ERC, would be run by the clubs, with governing bodies not represented on the board. Ritchie, who is playing the role of mediator because the RFU receives no income from the Heineken Cup, is aware that the longer the delay goes on, the more the prospect of a European club tournament next season will diminish.

The four Welsh regions, who last month pledged their support for the Rugby Champions Cup, are meeting this week to discuss the implications of the impasse for them in a month when the Wales and Lions centre Jonathan Davies signed for Clermont Auvergne. His region, the Scarlets, offered him a new contract worth £300,000 a year, on condition they were involved in a European club tournament next season. When Clermont pushed him to make a decision, he opted for certainty.

It is understood that the regions are reopening negotiations with other leading players who are coming out of contract, including Leigh Halfpenny, Sam Warburton, Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Jones, all of whom will command substantial pay increases after their exploits with the Lions in the summer. They want to sign them by the beginning of next month, even though Europe's future will not have been decided by then.

Halfpenny and Warburton are understood to be ready to sign new deals with Cardiff Blues and the regions hope that by securing the future of national squad players beyond the 2015 World Cup they will put the Welsh Rugby Union under pressure to ensure that there is a European club competition next season.

"This is a key moment," said one club official. "At the moment, it could go either way but the longer there is a delay, the greater the chance of the three Celtic unions and Italy suffering a big drop in revenue next season because there will be no Europe. That is why Ian Ritchie is desperately trying to get everyone around the table again talking about the big sticking point, governance.

"The reality is that 30 of the 38 teams who take part in the Heineken and Amlin Challenge cups have committed to the Rugby Champions Cup. No one is making any threats about breaking way or challenging the regulations of the International Rugby Board. It is just a case of the Rugby Champions Cup or nothing as far as European rugby is concerned."[/color]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/19/rugby-football-union-ian-ritchie-european-tournament-rabodirect-pro12

Payers only pay tax when they have money...otherwise, the term for taking money from the payers is called being 'screwed'.

That word again. If I keep using it tomorrow it might overtake 'selfie' as the word of the year.

I have not heard selfie used once dude!!(untill then of course)

mystiroakey wrote:I have not heard selfie used once dude!!(untill then of course)

It isn't high on my buzzwords of choice either Mystir...but the good folks in dictionary land seem to think it's got the honours this year.  Perhaps you have to be of a certain generation to notice it...and I ain't............

'Richie is eager to restart European tournament talks'. Aye, I'm sure Richie/McCafferty, are desperate to talk now.

"This is a key moment," said one club official. "At the moment, it could go either way but the longer there is a delay, the greater the chance of the three Celtic unions and Italy suffering a big drop in revenue next season because there will be no Europe. That is why Ian Ritchie is desperately trying to get everyone around the table again talking about the big sticking point, governance."

Maybe that was the same club official who recently claimed that the 4 Welsh Regions would definitely be taking part,'it is going to happen', in this supposed new competition next year. Suffering a big drop sounds better than financial oblivion I suppose. Hope the Unions tell Richie to stick it in his pipe.

apparently there is some overlap between selfie and screwing for the younger generation  

quinsforever wrote:apparently there is some overlap between selfie and screwing for the younger generation  

 I reckon so, quins. I do reckon so on that one. Although wasn't it a crusty ol' Eastender who was on to those possibilities earlier than most GenerationTwit-sters?

Ok i have just looked it up.

Its a pic of yourself..

I dont do all that FB or twiter stuff so ...

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:apparently there is some overlap between selfie and screwing for the younger generation  

 I reckon so, quins.  I do reckon so on that one.  Although wasn't it a crusty ol' Eastender who was on to those possibilities earlier than most GenerationTwit-sters?

think that was selfie and screwing OF the younger generation...allegedly

Anyway, yis are all dirty minded gits! Now let's get back to rugby or Google will ban 606v2 from its search engine.

What the heck are you lot on about..

SNAPCHAT - sent pictures and videos that last for 1-10 seconds before auto deleting

Another controversy surrounding the rising popularity of Snapchat in the United States relates to a phenomenon known as sexting. This involves the sending and receiving of explicit images that often involve some degree of nudity. Because the application is commonly used by younger generations, often below the age of eighteen, the question has been raised whether or not certain users are technically distributing child pornography. For this reason, many adults disapprove of their children's use of the application. Snapchat's developers continue to insist that the application is not sexting-friendly and that they do not condone any kind of pornographic use.[32]

eastenders reference - dirty den got caught in an undercover newspaper sting

anyhoo. back to the lack of european rugby...

Oh I know about sexting.

I am a supporter

dont accidentally post one here though  

Selfies aside....if any of the speculation pans out, this has to be a massive opportunity for championship sides to get fixtures against AP sides.

If other Unions are happy to go down the centrally controlled elitist route, that is their choice and they will need a euro competition to fund the teams. The RFU however surely can see the possibilities for diversifying and enlarging the catchment for a second fully professional tier. It is not going to happen overnight but now is the time.

Test and club rugby existed long before any euro competition and will continue to do so.

As far as the FFR fracas goes, has Goze lost his job? or has the stance, no English clubs in competition then no French clubs either, been dropped.....

I suspect Goze and the LNR stance are still there, they are just being ignored for the time being, by the Unions in an attempt to seize the initiative.

I will look forward to my AP team playing a Cornish Pirates or perhaps a Jersey next season.

  Yaaay!!! for the centrally controlled elitist route yaaaaay!!!   

French manoeuvre leaves English clubs isolated over next season's Heineken Cup participation

FFR chief makes Top 14 an offer they probably can't refuse as only RFU is not invited to Dublin meeting to discuss next season's Heineken Cup

Jonny Wilkinson and Toulon may well play in next season's Heineken Cup after all

By Gavin Mairs, Dublin

10:00PM GMT 19 Nov 2013
Follow

Comments8 Comments

Hopes of a resolution in the row over the future of European club rugby in time for next season appear to be over, with the protagonists seemingly resigned to rival tournaments taking place next year.

Representatives from the French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions are understood to be meeting in Dublin on Thursday to discuss plans to forge ahead with revised versions of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup next season without the participation of the English clubs. Significantly, it is thought that the Rugby Football Union has not been invited.

The move comes following a commitment of French representation within the existing European Rugby Cup structure, by French Federation president Pierre Camou, despite the agreement between the Top 14 clubs and their English counterparts to create a new tournament.

Camou has reportedly warned the French clubs that no new accord with the French Federation over player release and television rights will be possible unless they withdraw their support for the new Rugby Champions’ Cup.

Camou has also offered the French clubs €2million (£1.68million) each for participating in the ERC tournaments and reportedly set them a deadline of next month to confirm their support or he intends to explore other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.
It is understood there is also a strong desire among the Celtic unions for the European tournaments to remain within union control rather than be run by commercially motivated clubs, despite the progress made at last month’s summit over tournament structure and funding.

Privately there appears to be a reluctant acceptance that to maintain that governance principle for the best interests of the game in the long term, it may come at the short-term price of pushing ahead with a tournament without the support of the leading English clubs.

There is also a determination that the new Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups will honour the broadcasting deal with Sky Sports.

The English clubs, however, remain confident that the leading French clubs, as well as the Welsh regions, who declared their support for the Rugby Champions’ Cup last month, will participate in the new tournament, to be broadcast by BT Sport.

Premiership Rugby is also prepared to legally challenge any move to block clubs from joining the Rugby Champions’ Cup, a position it believes is likely to be strengthened if the respective unions did so while agreeing a new European accord to set up tournaments that would rival it.

The prospect of two effectively watered-down European tournaments next season would come as a bitter blow to rugby supporters as well as hamper preparations for the national sides in the build-up to the 2015 Rugby World Cup.

The quality of the existing Heineken Cup matches are seen by the respective national coaches as key proving grounds for preparing for Test matches while the fallout from a potential split is likely to tarnish rugby’s image at a time when the RFU hopes that hosting the World Cup will take the game to a new audience.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/10461174/French-manoeuvre-leaves-English-clubs-isolated-over-next-seasons-Heineken-Cup-participation.html